Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Why does the top 10% paying more tax? (An interactive story) https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314111#post314111 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314111#post314111 I think it’s worth hearing that that privilege just isn’t what it once was.

Being white, educated and heterosexual sure ain't getting us onto the housing ladder.

]]> Wed, 28 May 2014 13:46:13 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314110#post314110 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314110#post314110 Wed, 28 May 2014 13:45:05 +1200 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314086#post314086 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314086#post314086 I've just read through the posts on this topic. The picture painted is of a dysfunctional society where a tiny proportion are causing enormous deprivation to the majority. It can't last. History shows what will happen unless change is made voluntarily.
And telling people that "12% of households pay 76%…

]]> Wed, 28 May 2014 11:58:00 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314064#post314064 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314064#post314064 like being a paraplegic and being told that one must summit Mount Cook

just for morale, you understand.. :)

]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 23:42:01 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314062#post314062 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314062#post314062 We have a one-year-old

Congrats.

]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 23:41:02 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314061#post314061 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=314061#post314061 Tue, 27 May 2014 23:36:59 +1200 Moz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313983#post313983 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313983#post313983 We’re kind of in that position. Mid-30s ...

We're in the even better position that I'm in my 40's with a top-quintile income and no net debt 5 years ago when we started seriously saving. What I'm concerned about is that the situation just keeps getting worse. My loan after…

]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 15:22:02 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313949#post313949 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313949#post313949 graduating, having kids, and just accepting that they’ll be in debt, renting and moving flats every few years just like the poor people do (poor, again, meaning “lower half of the income scale… like they are). Hopefully only until they’re in their 40’s and have got their incomes up above… ]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 13:36:59 +1200 Moz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313940#post313940 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313940#post313940 It's worse still when one's household income is in that 9th decile but you still can only dream about owning a 3+1 in your current not-inner-suburbs-and-not-Grammer-zoned suburb of residence

Even for the young-but-earning there are a bunch of catch 22's. "affordable" houses tend to be a long way out and…

]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 13:14:43 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313933#post313933 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313933#post313933 instead of hanging on to the bottom-but-one rung as I do, to be actually left on the ground

It's worse still when one's household income is in that 9th decile but you still can only dream about owning a 3+1 in your current not-inner-suburbs-and-not-Grammer-zoned suburb of residence; one just up…

]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 12:58:57 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313913#post313913 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313913#post313913 Like race or gender, ‘class’ doesn’t limit the ability to think or imagine.

That’s right. Those things only limit the ability to directly experience. Thinking and imagining experiences goes some way to developing empathy, but it’s way easier to have empathy with experiences that are actually your own. So I…

]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 11:42:01 +1200 WH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313869#post313869 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313869#post313869 This is Paul Mason's Guardian piece about the FT's critique of Piketty.

Of course, inequality is just one of the reasons New Zealand's housing market is so pernicious.

]]> Tue, 27 May 2014 08:50:50 +1200 Brent Jackson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313840#post313840 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313840#post313840 Mon, 26 May 2014 17:43:50 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313822#post313822 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313822#post313822 Even quite staunch capitalists would probably suggest a flatter income distribution, and most people would say that they believe it’s not as flat as they’d like. That it is further not even as flat as what they believe is the final icing on the “this needs some fixing” cake.

On…

]]> Mon, 26 May 2014 16:08:16 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313821#post313821 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313821#post313821 the philthy rich

Ben's not talking about that level, though. He's talking about people who own (at least mostly) their own home and have a moderate income. Their home may well be worth in the vicinity of a million dollars, courtesy of house price inflation, but their income is not…

]]> Mon, 26 May 2014 15:03:52 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313820#post313820 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313820#post313820 They’ve got that already, and will probably struggle to understand what the fuss is all about.
Always worth remembering even the philthy rich can be smart, aware, and have a conscience. Like race or gender, 'class' doesn't limit the ability to think or imagine.

]]> Mon, 26 May 2014 14:02:40 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313819#post313819 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313819#post313819 Mon, 26 May 2014 13:16:00 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313811#post313811 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313811#post313811 I do however believe that the wealthy should contribute more to paying for the things we agree the government should provide.

For reasons not least of which is that they have done well from the government’s provision of services and infrastructure thus far. They get an educated, (moderately) healthy workforce;…

]]> Mon, 26 May 2014 10:06:36 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313810#post313810 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313810#post313810 This kind of trolling does not usually deserve a response except that it is more than an isolated view.

Exactly. It's not hard to spot a half-baked attempt at Reductio ad Stalinum.

]]> Mon, 26 May 2014 09:58:07 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313808#post313808 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313808#post313808 This kind of trolling does not usually deserve a response except that it is more than an isolated view.

Nobody here has suggested any of the measures you describe – what Kieth has shown is that John Key is lying when he claims the rich are paying all the taxes.…

]]> Mon, 26 May 2014 09:19:02 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313801#post313801 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313801#post313801 We seem to be arguing around the edges, the real problem is our current Government.
Roll on September.
I just had to post on one of John Armstrong's almost daily sycophantic ramblings.
I repost here so you don't have to go there....
"It is hard to put a finger on…

]]> Sun, 25 May 2014 11:42:35 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313800#post313800 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313800#post313800 I did not miss the point. I read the question, and answered it

Yes, and the discussion then moved on to the point of the question. I think everyone got your point by now.

]]> Sun, 25 May 2014 11:05:14 +1200 Chavez 4 Ever https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313799#post313799 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313799#post313799 Ng.. you are right!! All the rich cockroaches should be taxed into extinction for the benefit of the masses.
The government gains more; beneficiaries and low wage workers get more, and NZ becomes a better, fairer more successful state, like us and Cuba.
Venezuela has shut down most money-sucking businesses,…

]]> Sun, 25 May 2014 10:42:34 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313798#post313798 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313798#post313798 I did not miss the point. I read the question, and answered it. Why would IRD report generally on capital gains when they're not taxable? IRD is only interested in things that can be taxed, it's the sole reason IRD exists.

If you want to get a handle on capital…

]]> Sun, 25 May 2014 10:39:09 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313782#post313782 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313782#post313782 Sat, 24 May 2014 14:24:46 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313781#post313781 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313781#post313781 @Matthew

People then bringing up opinions from foreign jurisdictions about whether capital gains are income is irrelevant to this discussion.

I think you missed WHs point. He’s talking about whether they should be considered income, and looking at how it’s done elsewhere is quite relevant. I read the question about…

]]> Sat, 24 May 2014 14:23:32 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313770#post313770 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313770#post313770 I think you may have misunderstood my original point, which was about New Zealand’s income distribution rather than the operation of our tax legislation.

Your original question was:

Do the IRD’s figures include capital gains (such as increases in the value of investments) as income?

I answered, in the context…

]]> Sat, 24 May 2014 09:42:14 +1200 WH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313759#post313759 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313759#post313759 What, exactly, does an American tax policy paper have to do with New Zealand tax law? [...] If [capital gains] were income, they’d be taxed as income. They’re not, therefore they are not.

I think you may have misunderstood my original point, which was about New Zealand's income distribution rather…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 20:09:13 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313739#post313739 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313739#post313739 I think that people arguing here for a change in the law to tax most capital gains as income – saying we shouldn’t advocate it should be income because it’s currently not taxed that way sort of defeats any discussion about changing the law.

At what point did I say…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 14:01:58 +1200 Paul Campbell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313738#post313738 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313738#post313738 Mathew: I think that people arguing here for a change in the law to tax most capital gains as income – saying we shouldn't advocate it should be income because it's currently not taxed that way sort of defeats any discussion about changing the law.

Pointing out the NZ is…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 13:29:02 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313726#post313726 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313726#post313726 the dairy sector: $26mln in corporate and personal income tax during ’09. With dairy exports in the $11bln range, that’s a lot of unpaid tax.

Or historic losses carried forward, as the industry claims. It's not a straightforward problem to establish how an industry with such high revenue could generate…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 11:36:57 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313725#post313725 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313725#post313725
capital gains aren’t income. If they were, they’d be taxed.

I’m not sure that’s right.

Capital gains are already taxed in a large number of jurisdictions, including the UK, the US and Australia. The US-based Tax Policy Center states that:

Capital gains are generally included in taxable income

What, exactly,…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 11:29:45 +1200 Rik https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313717#post313717 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313717#post313717 “Net taxes” is not a real thing. These are the official tax statistics published by the IRD. “Net taxes” is not among them, nor should it be, because it’s estimate of a bunch of arbitrary measures, put together for entirely political ends.

I think we all know what Key is…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 10:47:25 +1200 WH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313709#post313709 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313709#post313709 There's something insidious about this line of argument.

It's a statistical rendering of Mitt Romney's point about the 47%, and it works in part by ignoring a fair proportion of the taxes the average wage and salary earner pays and by including transfers made to households with children.

The argument…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 09:39:01 +1200 Pete George https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313703#post313703 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313703#post313703 Some capital gains are taxed in New Zealand, if you are deemed a speculator or a dealer. See http://www.ird.govt.nz/property/property-common-mistakes/mistake-dealing-with-investment/

Does the visualisation use individual incomes? Key's claim is about household incomes.

Key's office has responded to a query about his claim.
The Prime Minister was referring to the following piece…

]]> Fri, 23 May 2014 06:59:08 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313700#post313700 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313700#post313700 Nice viz. Could be interesting to break the top 10% down even further. It would be most curious to see how the top 10% is itself distributed. I bet the median is very different from the mean.

As for the fairness, you have to buy the idea that everyone should…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 19:57:49 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313693#post313693 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313693#post313693 The only way they could find out would be to require major asset sales and purchases to be declared on tax returns, even if they didn't attract any tax.

I suppose stats/IRD could estimate a figure by looking at a sample of properties (e.g. from rating records) figuring out the…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 17:38:20 +1200 Moz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313690#post313690 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313690#post313690 capital gains ... You are only obliged to declare them if you are a property trader (something practically nobody is).

... because it's pathetically easy to convince the IRD that you're not. I got told by them at one point that if I flicked a particular property within 3 years…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 16:51:31 +1200 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313689#post313689 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313689#post313689 Do the IRD's figures include capital gains (such as increases in the value of investments) as income?

Oh wait. Maybe this was what the TWG couldn't do. But anyway, yes – this is missing a huge section of income.

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 16:46:38 +1200 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313688#post313688 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313688#post313688 Nice chewy viz, and it tells us something interesting. But you're missing the GiST of the story.

Urgh. The Tax Working Group couldn't do it either.

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 16:46:02 +1200 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313687#post313687 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313687#post313687 What;'s the likely regressiveness of GST including the latest increase?

Urgh. That is a very big question which I'm not in a position to answer.

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 16:44:14 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313684#post313684 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313684#post313684 The rich have it good here, don’t believe them when they whine

They do have problems we* don't have – I mean really, you pay up front for a politician they should stay bought!



*As long as I can afford to buy whatever food I want at the supermarket I…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 16:09:18 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313679#post313679 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313679#post313679 Functionally, capital gains are deferred income.

They aren't taxed in NZ because there is a political desire to feed the upper middle classes free, untaxed money. The IRD doesn't collect figures because they aren't taxed. You are only obliged to declare them if you are a property trader (something practically…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 15:18:18 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313665#post313665 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313665#post313665 I have to keep reminding people we have comparably low taxes in NZ for the rich, Spot on.
And historical memory is even worse. Top tax rate in the UK in the 60s was something like 98%. The Beatles complained, but none of them starved :)
In NZ my dad,…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 13:37:38 +1200 AndrewH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313661#post313661 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313661#post313661 Paul – absolutely. Appropriate response to the whining – "oh FFS, get a life".
Though I'm truly grateful that Keith take the time/effort to provide the visualisation to support this response!

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 13:05:46 +1200 Paul Campbell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313659#post313659 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313659#post313659 Thu, 22 May 2014 13:02:29 +1200 AndrewH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313658#post313658 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313658#post313658 Or, paraphrasing the results in the historical messaging of the wealthy:
"Waaah, our tax rate is too high, it's stifling investment/innovation etc. Reduce tax and the benefits will flow to society" (receive tax cuts, bank the cash)
"Waaah, our tax rate is too high as a percentage of tax take"..........

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 12:53:29 +1200 Paul Campbell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313653#post313653 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313653#post313653 Capital gains are already taxed in a large number of jurisdictions, including the UK, the US and Australia.

yes NZ’s pretty unusual as a 1st world country that doesn’t tax capital gains.

For example in the US all capital gains are taxed by default at you marginal tax rate, just…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 11:54:06 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313649#post313649 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313649#post313649 bulletproof trucks. ]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 11:41:57 +1200 George Darroch https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313648#post313648 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313648#post313648 Thu, 22 May 2014 11:14:14 +1200 WH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313647#post313647 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313647#post313647 capital gains aren't income. If they were, they'd be taxed.

I'm not sure that's right.

Capital gains are already taxed in a large number of jurisdictions, including the UK, the US and Australia. The US-based Tax Policy Center states that:

Capital gains are generally included in taxable income

There is…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 10:58:59 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313641#post313641 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313641#post313641 Do the IRD's figures include capital gains (such as increases in the value of investments) as income?

No, because capital gains aren't income. If they were, they'd be taxed.

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 10:17:25 +1200 WH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313626#post313626 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313626#post313626 Do the IRD's figures include capital gains (such as increases in the value of investments) as income?

If they don't (on the basis that many kinds of capital gain aren't taxable income), the figures may understate the share of national income going to the top 10%.

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 08:57:58 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313616#post313616 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313616#post313616 Thu, 22 May 2014 06:45:53 +1200 WH https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313613#post313613 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313613#post313613 Fantastic work Keith – this is a really helpful way to present this information.

Paul Krugman often notes that those at the top end of the income distribution pay more income tax primarily because they receive much more income than everyone else.

If I'm reading you right, you've shown that…

]]> Thu, 22 May 2014 06:24:07 +1200 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313557#post313557 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313557#post313557 - 2003-2012, average after-tax income is up 50% plus or minus a bit across all income cohorts. "Oh, the system's only helping the rich?" Decile 2 had higher percentage growth in after-tax income than Decile 10.

Yeah, but Decile 2 aren't full-time workers or even beneficiaries, so I'm not sure…

]]> Wed, 21 May 2014 17:37:59 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313551#post313551 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313551#post313551 - 2003-2012, average after-tax income is up 50% plus or minus a bit across all income cohorts. “Oh, the system’s only helping the rich?”
Spans two govts – hard to tease out effects of policy changes in that timeframe, plus the GFC.
But the data should include WWF(?) Significantly raised…

]]> Wed, 21 May 2014 17:11:46 +1200 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313549#post313549 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313549#post313549 Are you being intentionally ironic with your graph labels leaving out the very word that Key is claimed to have left out?

Ha, no. It got too confusing with Income vs Income Tax vs After-Tax Income.

]]> Wed, 21 May 2014 17:05:13 +1200 Brent Jackson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313548#post313548 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313548#post313548 Fantastic work Keith. Clearly laid out and explained. When talking about increases and decreases, Tax Rate most certainly does not equate to Tax Amount.

Oh, and anybody who's put off by the phrase "interactive data visualisation", don't be. It comes with a handy-dandy slide show that explains things in 8…

]]> Wed, 21 May 2014 16:51:05 +1200 Glenn Pearce https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313540#post313540 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313540#post313540 Are you being intentionally ironic with your graph labels leaving out the very word that Key is claimed to have left out?

"Share of Taxes" vs "Share of Income Taxes"

"Net Taxes" vs "Net Income taxes"

]]> Wed, 21 May 2014 15:56:35 +1200 Eric Crampton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313538#post313538 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313538#post313538 A few points worth noting:
– 2003-2012, average after-tax income is up 50% plus or minus a bit across all income cohorts. "Oh, the system's only helping the rich?" Decile 2 had higher percentage growth in after-tax income than Decile 10.
– A default start point in 2008 makes after-tax…

]]> Wed, 21 May 2014 15:43:19 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313537#post313537 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-why-does-the-top-10-paying-more-tax/?p=313537#post313537 Discussion from blog post.

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