And can the PM guarantee what’s happening in Aussie can’t happen to us?

or an intractable difference of fact. But go right ahead. Carrick is having a good laugh.

There are plenty of other pleasurable things that won’t kill you or other people.

You want to tell us how to have fun now? And stop raising the spectre of death, unless you want to venture into deep philosophical arguments about the meaning…

Noone bothers measuring the upside
Upside? Seriously? But anyway, yes, they do. See page 14.

People don't just take pleasure in smoking, they gain a real pharmacological benefit
No, they don't. A pharmacological benefit is one where the risks of the treatment are less than the benefits. So with…

depression rises in nations as smoking falls
Despite having very good access to every possible respectable medical journal, I can't find a single reference supporting this statement. Not even ones planted by tobacco companies.

There is evidence that being depressed can…

Measures taken, that are likely to create a scenario of physical discomfort and emotional distress, like being unable to find anywhere…

Or, y'know, not sucking on it, surely?

Just trying to lighten the mood. Coat, getting, gone.

Why not?

Sacha, you haven't produced any evidence either, nor has George. He just linked to the WHO website, which on the dangers of second hand smoke defines that as something that happens indoors. You've only asserted that there is a "prevailing…

Why do people assume that we all stop contributing at age 65, or that you can even quantify the economics without some effort – and expertise? Though don't get me started on…

Logic like that is not helping your case.

Whether they actually are addicted or not. The existence of individuals that are able to give up tobacco with ease doesn't really fit with the story of people suffering from a disease of…

they also taste better

I've often wondered what this sort of goal might do for tourism if fully implemented, and potentially for business relationships if rich people from overseas who want to visit NZ for some reason might not be…

That when Sacha says `Most of the harms I experience from smokers come from sharing a publicly-funded health system with them' he is talking nonsense, or `For both smokers and drinkers, that…

Jesus Christ on a bike. No, I’m specifically NOT imposing a lot of moral judgement or, indeed, reacting to anything you’ve said, which is all very sensible. (Let me reiterate that once more: VERY…

I'd say the point is that while it would be financially profitable in the short term, it'd be socially bankrupt in the long run. The same goes for any bean counter who…

you might want to tone down your confidence level there

It would also be a good thing (on that sole measure) to kill disabled people. Your point is?

It was clear to…

This is totally disputable if you accept that it is impossible to fully quantify in economic terms all the benefits that experienced…

What that would achieve beyond a matching…

I don't think there any useful conversation to be had when you're…

That's 10% of NZers and 25% of Maori *who die*, right? I'm…

If you think that controlling an addictive disease that kills ten percent of New Zealanders and twenty five percent of Maori every year is unreasonable, then we have no common ground, and we can't have a useful conversation.

the moon is also made of cheese

The cost to society is not measured only by the public accounts.

So whats the cost to society of lawyers for big corporations doing as Keith said:

asking the Government to change the bill specifically so they’d have less of a case to prove when they sued the government.

Seems…

But purely from…

To be honest I appreciate the right and need for people to light up without being sneered at, whether it’s because they’re addicted or because they want to. I…

Maybe we'd have to spend way more on pensions if people stopped smoking and lived longer?

which might be worth exploring, but probably not here.

Yeah I'm struggling to make sense of that one.

Here’s a good place to start. World Health Organisation, Tobacco.

Edit: actually, everyone in this debate could get something from the WHO's page. There are some extremely well…

Fencing off private swimming pools, etc, might also be relevant comparisons – though 'punitive' might not be the right word. Language choices like that suggest an underlying belief system that is of some interest. Just not right now,…

Same

If you want to talk about personal choice, but wont to talk about addiction, you’re just... [edited, unnecessarily harsh].

I think you're asking this in good faith, but I just don't really feel like answering it, because it's not especially relevant to the argument at hand. Whether choice exists or not does not alter the…

Sadly…

Ben, you have asked everyone to enter this discussion in the spirit of openmindedness and willingness to understand an alternative view, but this just demonstrates that you are making no attempt to do…

I don't either, at that practical day-to-day level. It's just not where the harms or opportunities that motivate any public intervention lie. George explained the linkages quite adequately.

What would it take to convince you? You seem to be simply ignoring well-established public health policy about tobacco and addiction.

(In any case, I'm the apparently rare non-smoker who really doesn't give much of a shit about open-air smoking. Come, smoke…

Maybe the $350 million smoking-related health bill you cited earlier could be redirected to other parts of the health system? Maybe the money spent on promoting 'stop smoking' campaigns could be spent elsewhere? Maybe smokers (a significant proportion of whom…

No, you are completely wrong about this. I simply disagree with the punitive…

The last stats I saw – admittedly a few years ago – had smokers as about 20% of the general population and higher in some subgroups (esp. Maori and Pasifika women.) That’s not a majority, but it’s not “small” by any standard. Have numbers…

Ben is upset about being picked on. His basic assumption (as I gather from what has been written here) is that much of tobacco policy is primarily punitive, driven not by health needs,…

I must have misunderstood this, for one:

I also think the aim of the taxes on smoking are simply sin-taxes, tickling an urge in puritans that I find quite unpleasant myself.

great branding opportunity

I'd like to understand how you see the relationship between addiction and personal choice.

How very Owen Glenn of you.

Fucking Big Cleaners. Exploiting us by making floors wet that we have to walk on.

Ben, if your "moral" argument is that any anti-smoking action is just…

It is a stretch for you to suggest that smokers have generally agreed to most of your positions here.

Quite the opposite. New Zealand research has found tobacco control measures to be generally supported by smokers (see here.)

I would like it very much. So would my husband and my son and my daughter. Why is what you like more important than what we like?

That's a tough one. It…

tabagie...
The French always have a word for these things...…

My point is that outdoor cigarette smoke is ubiquitous in outdoor urban places at any time…

Yeah, someone else can tackle that one if you're unwilling to do some reading. I have another meeting of the national cancer clinical information systems leadership group to prepare for this morning. (seriously).

Smoking also has other health harms.

Sigh. It's not. Again, this is like arguing climate science or the roundness of the earth. There is a whole health discipline dedicated to tobacco harm, including health economists. With figures different than Jackie has just offered (but Carrick must be loving…

Ah, but of course, your post is explicitly a pretext for a withdrawal.

Not without help... and over a long time. "Choice" is a very simplistic concept as you present it.

Already done. I won’t redundantly elaborate.

I haven’t even spoken about people who have had to deal with loved ones who are dying!

Indeed you haven’t, because it has not even occurred to you. It’s all very well to talk…

Defensive, yes. It's what happens when I'm accused of disrespect.…

This shows an ignorance of probability.

Granted, smoking increases the probability of cancer substantially, but that does not mean that all cancer…

Smokers die younger, but they don't age faster. So they work until 65, like non smokers, paying taxes all the time, and…

I’m sorry, but that just strikes me as defensive, and a little bit smug. An immediate family member whom I love is dying of cancer, another might yet. To talk about these people as if they were “burdens” is disrespectful.

You don’t have to…

Treating people as economic facts or logical constructions tends to offend fellow humans.

Wrong. Most of the harms I experience from smokers come from sharing a publicly-funded health system with them. Not because they offend my nose or pollute my lungs.

I never seem to have the slightest trouble.

@kracklite
Please don’t be so glib – there are real effects

I've not denied that.

A little taste and tact please? They’re not mere societal conventions, they’re founded on…

As a minor contributor to this discussion I guess you probably aren't taking about me, but I feel obliged to say that I've just got back from seeing Fire in Babylon at the Hamilton…

Well, we mostly have Plato’s word on Socrates, and Plato definitely was a dick. If I had a time machine, a rifle and a convenient grassy knoll…

I think part of the problem in this debate is that we don't think your group (the smokers who harm no one) actually exist and thus we…

It might be how it started, but it's not how it's done now. Most of us contemporary philosophers think Socrates was a dick.

Causes broader harms than just that (which have burdens/costs).

snap

None of this is unsettled stuff, so it makes about as much sense to me as arguing about climate change – also a popular libertarian sport. Perhaps an explanation of why (from that perspective)…

I’ll restrain my anger over that last phrase and attribute it to your naiveté.

The care…

Societal goods. Utility to society as a whole. You know, the main factor in most modern forms of utilitarianism when it comes to discussion of public policy.

I think you're…

a) I accept that smoking kills people. I'm not sure how much of a burden this…

b) do you not think perhaps the aim of these taxes is to offset these costs?

Arguably, the reason why governments don't ban tobacco is…

No wonder I missed it. To call something that you do 20-odd times a day and get genuine pleasure from "limited private utility" caused me confusion. I apologize for suggesting you forgot the actual theory, but…

You know I…

again, you're ignoring addiction.
more rebellious to choose tofu

assuredly

No, and no. I don't "wave it away". I consider it an important…

That's a problem Climate Change Deniers have been suffering from for a long time. :)

I’m not convinced the most relevant factors are about the size of the crowd so much as the nature of our urban layouts that place smokers into walking corridors which everyone uses with people who are smoking, or encourages them to stand near doorways…

See, I don't walk down those couple of streets that often/ever.

The skywalks in particular don't offer the upward dispersion as they have trains running above them. The clouds of smoke that filled the air up…

Well, if you're a utilitarian, then I think you should be agreeing with us rather than disagreeing. The public utility of restricting tobacco use (better living, everyone!) is a good…

Yes, when I went to Bangkok, every time I blew my nose it was black. But that wasn't because of smokers. I gather this has improved, though?…

I'm not qualified to comment on health effects, but I definitely agree with the prevalence of…

As I recall, that was a killer live, no?

I don't believe you have engaged with the impact of addiction on choice – but I've already recognised you may need better information to do that with. And I don't have any to point you at…

I find an endless cloud of toxic smoke that I…

Having actually looked up the word consensus, I'm rather surprised to find it doesn't mean unanimity. I'll concede this one. I guess I've only ever been in consensus decision making situations that did end up being unanimous. That is, however, probably on account of the…

I'm also aware that my last paragraph is an appeal to authority, but I do think that if you're going to argue that there is no compelling…

Ben, you're the first person I've ever met, offline or on, who has referred to the evidence on tobacco as an "appeal to prejudice".

and from George,

the costs of end-of-life healthcare, particularly for cancers, is extreme.

Convince me you've done the number on this. Considering that everyone dies in the end, and the better our healthcare gets, the more likely it…

Applying limited public health and social resources to treat smokers (or drinkers, for instance) means those resources are not available for other people. There seem to be moral implications..

Fatal second-hand smoke effects exist.

I was being sincere, but I can see that I didn't make the question plain enough. My bad.

If you mean where does the reach of public health end for other harmful activities, I have no idea.

Yes, that was…

Ya lost me.

I don't think it's of much relevance in the zealotry surrounding anti-smoking legislation.

I agree, it's not a major factor, but was just addressing your objection.

I think the whole thing is deeply…

That again, is ill informed. Quite apart from the horror inflicted on those who suffer through their last years and those who lose family members much earlier than they otherwise would (13 years earlier,…

In a very dragged out and expensive way though, is it not? Smoker deaths don't usually…

And my response was that practically everything does, and that doesn't mean you have to be restricted where you appreciate your impacting good. You don't have to leave the CBD to put on your…

I thought you were being sincere. So I addressed tobacco.

If you mean where does the reach of public health end for other harmful activities, I have no idea. There is a societal consensus for the control of tobacco, but there are no…

No, its a stupid argument.

That's a confusing argument. I think you're mixing up immediate and long-term effects. Secondhand smoke clearly has implications for the…

Just not to the question actually asked.

Because both those activities are not addictive

Indeed, that's why they would need to be forced to do it. For their own good.

If determined to take a 'rational' economic approach

My argument is not economic. It's moral. But…

Because both those activities are not addictive. As I say, you really do not seem to understand what that means. In the nicest possible way, I…

With plain-packaged cartons costing $40, that you buy from restricted retailers (chemists, mostly) and are free to smoke in your own home and property... and 2-5% of the population smoking. That's my speculative answer.

No, especially since a thousand seeds costs about $2.50 (and they will drop their own seeds from then on), and they're basically plant-and-forget, being a very hardy plant, well adapted to NZ,…

Whether you view those measures as; paternalistic and unjustified,…

It’s on a tangent but there’s some interesting research from within New Zealand around the skewed risk-tolerance with people who are into things like mountain climbing and base jumping. His sample of 50 committed and experienced mountain climbers had a 10%…

I already said I don't disagree with banning it in buildings...but on the street, that I don't like.

What about secondhand smoke? The environmental impact (not just of smoking but the production of cigarettes)? The terrible working conditions in the plantations where tobacco is grown and…

Smoking, as an activity on the part of a smoker, does no harm to others? Really? What about secondhand smoke? The environmental impact (not…

In that bright land, there'll be no hunger,
no orphan children cryin' for bread,
no weeping widows, toil or struggle,
no shrouds, no coffins, and no death.

Or the original "No Depression":

I’m going where there’s no resource consent process,
to the lovely land that’s free from abrogations of my property rights.

There is no depression in New Zealand

Saturday Night's Alright For Introducing Vouchers…

Perhaps not. It's really hard to say. Many people have kicked addiction, by exercising choice. It seems to be one of the most successful ways, in fact. People who don't want to quit are the main ones who don't quit,…

Only if the right approach can wrest power from the well-resourced interests defending the status quo. That's going to take far more competent organising that we've seen so far – and fresher ideas than street marches and brochures. Aslo means tapping the…

Part of my bubbling theory is that change might actually not be so far away. Peak oil might alter more than where we go to buy fuel for our cars.

A good point. However, like some aspects of piracy (as opposed to peer-to-peer…

Because you, like Bill Clinton, didn't inhale?

Totally. You can see why I'm not holding my breath..

Yep, but also the broader social and cultural issues that impinge on the personal and emotional ones. You know, capitalism and liberalism elevating the individual over the collective, the trope that happiness comes from getting rather than giving,…

With respect, I'm not sure you understand how addiction works.

Can't be done. You can show people that it's both harmful and addictive. They still have to decide if the harm outweighs whatever the drivers of the addiction are, which aren't just the fear of physical cravings. They're actual pleasure in the use of the substance.…

Same. I'm thinking about us tackling the emotional and personal development issues that all addiction sits on. Needs a big investment in mental health, counselling, and other wellbeing services. Imagine the productivity and social gains from say $1b spent on that…

Good luck separating those.

Google 'tobacco smuggling in the UK'. Here's a couple of examples from the results:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1169049.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southeast/series6/smugglers.shtml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/6110778/Revealed-2bn-cost-to-UK-from-cigarette-smuggling.html

Risking a threadjack here, but I'd love to hear a bit more about this. Feeding my own bubbling theories you see..

Good luck trying to survey such things in Indonesia. The 60% figure often quoted comes…

This graphic suggests that New Zealand's climate probably isn't great for tobacco growth (if we're talking about people growing it…

You could argue the 'mistake' is in the humans. The plants are just fine.

That is such bullshit. How many people die per year from skydiving, mountain climbing, flying light…

Or we could invest properly in solving the drivers of all addiction, which I'd prefer. Just not naive enough to…

I completely agree. The world is finally waking up to the futility of marijuana being illegal…

It's semi legal in big parts of the world now, and this hasn't happened and seems unlikely to. Mostly, given their cloudy duplicitous histories, they would likely have…

Make beer not cigarettes!

Why? It's the only product that when used exactly as intended kills half of its users.