Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: "Project SPEARGUN underway"

Greg Dawson

Fri, 26 Sept 2014 13:28:38 +1200

Time for a new GCSB bill? The spooks down on the quay have got to be jealous of what their aussie brethren have just been given.

The new bill also allows ASIO to seek just one warrant to access a limitless number of computers on a computer network when attempting…

jh

Fri, 26 Sept 2014 07:51:23 +1200

Journalists haven’t been lazy this election, nor have they been biased.
.......
Huh?!

Even Peters own voters aren't convinced by this old trick – 92 per cent of his supporters don't rate immigration as a problem.
– Stuff
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/10187254/Immi-what-Hysteria-over-immigration-falls-flat
....
and non reporting

Savings Working Group
January 2011
“The big adverse…

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 21:26:34 +1200

Yeah, and while the mood on this thread remains light and not inconveniently over-condescending, Keith, you've had a while to read through the articles, interviews etc, what are your thoughts?

krothville

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 19:43:26 +1200

Haha, you're right. Would have been great if it had been true though, not for the NZ link or anything, just as something of interest.

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 19:12:41 +1200

The first time I read it I hadn’t noticed the phrase “Telepathic Interception”, so I'm not sure how far in the future the author was writing from ;)

krothville

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 18:41:11 +1200

Thanks for that, certainly very interesting, how did the commenter know, and how did the person whose stuff he was looking at find out?

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 13:28:53 +1200

Sweepstakes!

If Voting Could Change the System, It Would Be Against the Law

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 09:12:58 +1200

Fnord
I C U
…don’t leave the country till
you’ve seen the fnords …

nzlemming

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 09:02:34 +1200

Removed by the Mgt

Fnord

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 08:14:58 +1200

I’ve been looking back for it for days, but it seems to have vanished, and I can’t find any other reference to this on the net.
– Removed by the Mgt

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 04:52:03 +1200

Cool story bro

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 04:25:01 +1200

Found it:

BeyondGrave

15 September 2014 3:17pm
Recommend
0

One of the important parts Snowden left out, is that he was spying on the communications of New Zealanders just before he decided to leave the NSA.

A New Zealander, whose communications Snowden intercepted (and whose personal thoughts Snowden violated) became…

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 03:18:25 +1200

Hooray for Holyrood

Hey, at least this spectacle made up for the 2014 $300M+ TV dinner. It’s up with the best writing the industry has produced in a decade.

Steve Barnes

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 02:59:19 +1200

And round in circles we go...
Hooray for Holyrood
That screwy, ballyhooey Holyrood
Where any office boy or young mechanic
Can be a panic, with just a goodlooking pan
Where any barmaid can be a star maid
If she dances with or without a fan
Hooray for Holyrood

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 02:21:18 +1200

And we are ruled by a wunch of bankers…

That's the Hampden. From the day the music died.

Steve Barnes

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 01:07:21 +1200

And we are ruled by a wunch of bankers...
What could possibly go wrong.

Joe Wylie

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 00:23:10 +1200

tho’ I dont suffer an Election lost I just Suffer fools every day. That’s life.

+1 :)

mark taslov

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 00:21:19 +1200

Hang on, I’ll join you…. tho’ I dont suffer an Election lost I just Suffer fools every day. That’s life.

Emailed, (a little more work for the machine). WIthout doubt I’m a fool, you’ve been enduring these posts for years but yeah, just for larks ’an all.

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 00:21:13 +1200

Plus I’m bummed out Hone lost. IMP felt that manoeuvre a few days back and for all the strategy being played to get a left bloc, it didn’t work. I hope he stays around and I hope IP stay around. Their cause is all good.

Steve Barnes

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 00:17:31 +1200

Hail and thunder, God is not pleased.

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 21 Sept 2014 00:15:43 +1200

you may just well walk right into my smoking room for a sit down and a bit of a natter which could in its way diminish the that sick feeling one may get from a lost election and replace it with a more calm recognition of the bigger picture.

Hang…

mark taslov

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 23:56:40 +1200

How the fuck does an Electorate win with a large Labour vote but the Party vote go to National, time and time again. It makes nonsense. Who would vote electorate Labour candidate then Party, National?

I might get a whack over the head for saying this but if you follow…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 23:46:47 +1200

It’s very important to note that Xkeyscore, and nearly all Snowden’s revelations are related to the workings of the NSA. Diminishing the power of the CIA does nothing to diminish the power of the NSA.

Oh yes I know, but I still admire the guy for caring about the world…

krothville

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 23:36:59 +1200

It certainly would be!

mark taslov

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 22:04:02 +1200

I will, it's so strange, I immediately dismissed it, but it'd be a great story if it were found to be true.

krothville

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 21:36:05 +1200

I’ve been looking back for it for days, but it seems to have vanished, and I can’t find any other reference to this on the net.

Let us know if it turns up. I've never heard of him having had his opinion changed about this by someone.

mark taslov

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 20:04:13 +1200

How anybody can call Edward Snowden anything but honourable

Cruising the Guardian comments amid the revelations I encountered one comment detailing that one of the things that prompted Edward Snowden to blow whistle was a New Zealander who had become aware of his spying and was able to communicate back…

Kumara Republic

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 18:31:56 +1200

How anybody can call Edward Snowden anything but honourable, is beyond me. Here he is saving Democracy in Europe of all places? Who'd have thought he could multitask?

I detect two distinct camps: those who think we'll always be at war with Eastasia (Trev Loudon, NZCPR), and those who have…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 17:28:58 +1200

How anybody can call Edward Snowden anything but honourable, is beyond me. Here he is saving Democracy in Europe of all places? Who'd have thought he could multitask?

mark taslov

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 00:29:26 +1200

But even later, once Judith resigned and Cam Slater took out the injunction, is it not a little strange that not once has there been any mention of an investigation into Rawshark? SImply to reassure Kiwis that if this happens then they can expect action?

stephen clover

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 00:25:10 +1200

I wondered this myself, and I’ve always assumed that to use use the ‘apparatus’ to catch Rawshark would reveal the existence and operation of the apparatus in the ways which it’s been maintained that it does not exist and operate.

Also that the window between event and book (around 6…

Marc C

Sat, 20 Sept 2014 00:21:12 +1200

Oh, the GCSB would not want to upset the ones that "keep the economy going", whether it is the open economy, or the hidden, "black" economy, where the tax dodger's money is circulating, to grow yet more profits, which will also not be taxed. But yes, a valid question, as…

mark taslov

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 22:29:43 +1200

Nothing about this leaves any lingering whiff that this whole shebang is the greatest staged event since the Gulf of Tonkin incident?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXumtgwtak

David Hood

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 22:20:07 +1200

Well, The thinking was the Hager book was about the NSA stuff, and they were a bit blindsided by the contents. the first response was to say it wasn't true, which was incompatible with saying the emails were stolen. could they have played it differently at the start, yes. Did…

mark taslov

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 21:33:21 +1200

But why didn’t John Key lead with that? Why did he put the focus on Hager for writing the book, left wing conspiracy theorists, the left, why not paint Slater as the victim of a far more serious crime and lead with:

"Look this black hat hacker, has violated the…

David Hood

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 21:00:22 +1200

I think it is just that mass surveillance is actually rubbish at catching people you don't know. It is good for keeping tabs on the general population scanning keywords, and excellent at keeping tabs on specific targets and their extended networks. but against a person with no social networks whom…

mark taslov

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 20:46:16 +1200

I’m guessing he/she is an insider. There is no organization that can possibly get big or powerful enough to stop that kind of person. Quite the opposite, the bigger and more powerful they get, the more damaging that kind of person can be.

If it is the work of a…

BenWilson

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 20:05:54 +1200

For me the biggest question which I’d love someone to answer is if the GCSB/NSA/FYES are so powerful, and Government are so corrupt, then how did Rawshark manage to get away clean as a whistle?

I'm guessing he/she is an insider. There is no organization that can possibly get big…

John Farrell

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 19:25:08 +1200

There is the question. What deep game is being played?

mark taslov

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 19:08:55 +1200

And these agencies are very good at manipulating public discourse

For me the biggest question which I'd love someone to answer is if the GCSB/NSA/FYES are so powerful, and Government are so corrupt, then how did Rawshark manage to get away clean as a whistle?

mark taslov

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 17:51:04 +1200

So what drives that growth?

I think that one of the things that has happened is that military structures in general have insulated themselves from the political process. And the kinds of claims that are made to justify their growth, whether putting people in fear of terrorism or other kinds…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 17:18:31 +1200

We should all be very concerned about this, but apparently, most do not mind to be spied upon, as they supposedly “have nothing to hide”. George Orwell’s 1984 has been our reality for some time, I fear.

What if the GCSB was re-directed to spy on tax evaders and PR…

Marc C

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 16:20:00 +1200

So Mr Teflon Key gets away with this again, simply shrugging his shoulders, refusing to comment on Xkeyscore and other intelligence matters, claiming there are no NSA installations here, but also admitting that some technical staff may be placed somewhere, perhaps working for the US embassy, consulate or else.

Speculation…

nzlemming

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 11:37:03 +1200

Not banned, eh?

Is now.

John Farrell

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 08:13:10 +1200

Not banned, eh?

Jake Starrow

Fri, 19 Sept 2014 08:11:02 +1200

testing...

Kumara Republic

Thu, 18 Sept 2014 00:38:17 +1200

They attached it to Judith Collins’ mag-wheeled, lowered-axled, flame-painted ’89 Nissan Skyline. That farting sound you can probably hear is her hooning around Papakura delivering pamphlets.

I'd say they're more appropriate on the previous 1981-1988 model. Maybe it's just me, but flames look better on boxier vehicles.

mark taslov

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 23:36:57 +1200

I for one fully appreciate the expertise you and all the professionals have brought to the analysis of this issue. But I have a nagging feeling, and it reaches right back to last year when the dialogue around this issue first came to my attention, and I guess it could…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 22:53:48 +1200

I was thinking about this while "great big Norton Anti-Virus" thing Key was going on about and how this was his justification for the Speargun tap – his claim that this was not mass surveillance it was to protect us against.

Problem is that if you want an "anti-virus" or…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 13:15:55 +1200

I thought that the 5-eyes had agreements that they would not spy on each other (or does "each other" only mean governments and not their citizens)

Angela Hart

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 13:12:01 +1200

Prime Minister John Key acknowledged today that NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden's claim that New Zealanders' data is accessible through the controversial XKeyscore system "may well be right".

However, he maintained that information will not have been gathered under any Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) mass surveillance programme as the agency…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 13:03:01 +1200

Doh! Idea...
So*...
... a needle, pulling thread?
Far, a long long way to run
Tea, a drink with jam and bread
That will bring us back to
Do, oh oh oh...

;- )

The hills are alive
they have ears and eyes
they know what to do
with a…

CJM

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 12:45:45 +1200

I was just thinking, this piece of equipment Key says they test fitted “like a muffler” where is it now? Still at the bottom of the a sea? In the GCSB basement in Wellington? I can’t imagine there’s much of a market for “only got wet once” cable taps

They…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 12:39:29 +1200

So*, perhaps that rule of thumb isn’t as good as you hope.
“So” is the current “well” or “um”. (I edit a lot of interviews and talks, and it drives me a little nuts, so I chop it off as often as I’m able.)
But this accords well enough with…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 11:57:53 +1200

Starting your sentences with “so” demonstrates that you’re not as comfortable with your story as you think you are. And there’s a good chance that you may be lying.

I listen to the BBC Science in action podcasts as well as Discovery and Naked genetics (less exciting than it sounds)…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 11:41:07 +1200

I will was just thinking, this piece of equipment Key says they test fitted "like a muffler" where is it now? Still at the bottom of the a sea? In the GCSB basement in Wellington? I can't imagine there's much of a market for "only got wet once" cable taps

Alfie

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 10:13:53 +1200

Just listened to Key on RNZ with Ryan talking about mass surveillance.
I've mentioned this piece from Hunter Thurman before, but it's worth repeating in the context of almost all of Key's interviews.

Starting your sentences with "so" demonstrates that you’re not as comfortable with your story as you think…

CJM

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 09:54:56 +1200

Just listened to Key on RNZ with Ryan talking about mass surveillance. Incredible really, on friday he was apparently unable to specifically mention anything about anything to do with spying. Now, five days later, he’s describing in detail how ‘Speargun’ was implemented to the point of construction and fitting onto…

Alfie

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 09:42:37 +1200

Briscoe from Southern Cross disputes Key's claim that GCSB tapped the cable to collect metadata.
Mr Key on Monday acknowledged the GCSB had indeed tapped into the cable, but for the purposes of a cybersecurity programme.

However, Mr Key said concerns the project would be perceived as mass surveillance led to…

Peter E

Wed, 17 Sept 2014 07:42:35 +1200

Same spying troubles, different country.
Der Spiegel English edition online says Five Eyes illegally accesses communications in Germany
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/snowden-documents-indicate-nsa-has-breached-deutsche-telekom-a-991503.html
Their journalists verify Snowden's reporting.
P M John Key denies it happens in New zealand
Spy claims ''total nonsense'' says Southern Cross Cables CEO Anthony Briscoe.
It would seem they're either…

Matt Crawford

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 23:45:24 +1200

Hey Che,

I'm not sure about if/where data would be stored – if we're taking the version presented in the cabinet papers for Cortex then a couple of things raise their head.

The first issue is obviously latency – if Cortex is implemented to sniff and block threats in real…

nzlemming

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 23:39:41 +1200

This seems to be the gotcha Fisher was waiting on, but nothing much has been made of it. What am I missing?

Does seem a bit odd. It also throws the Southern Cross Cable guy (Briscoe?) under that bus as well.

Steve Parks

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 21:53:19 +1200

You mean this statement?

"Mr Key today acknowledged the GCSB had indeed tapped into the cable, but for the purposes of a cybersecurity programme."

From here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11325069

I have been wondering if that statement by the Herald is accurate, because David Fisher had earlier reported:

__ "John Key…

Che Tibby

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 17:34:56 +1200

It would require vast amounts of ongoing bandwidth and CPU, especially as Key claims it was to be total.

that assumes that we actually house the data tho doesn't it? the internet has already decided that breaching the cable is "trivial" (if you have a nuclear sub and the right…

Guy

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 16:38:58 +1200

Like this! http://www.zdnet.com/southern-cross-cable-hit-by-an-outage-7000007153/

Kevin McCready

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 16:28:30 +1200

Kerning
When I had Top Secret clearance I knew about analysis on the kerning on docs. Thus every page from every printer from every user at every time on any document, number of revisions etc etc. The microchanges in the kerning were placed by the software to show all this…

Alfie

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 16:11:54 +1200

Jason Ede is Kathryn Ryan's producer.

Sorry Kevin. I'm calling bullshit on that one.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 14:27:31 +1200

divers players...
...and they are all physically replaceable
Kathryn Ryan is a scuba diver!!
just sayin' ...

˚˚ ˚ ˚˚ ˚˚O- )

tussock

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 14:17:11 +1200

So it seems to me if that is the case – vested and political interests and spin aside – entirely plausible that most if not all of the parties involved in this may be telling the truth.

The Government here is lying by omission.

GCSB collects our allies data, our…

tussock

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:51:57 +1200

How do you 'probe' an optic cable, without breaking it to insert a splitter or somesuch?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_amplifier

Note that most submarine cables have dual landing cables built in, as the landing is the section most often broken so it acts as backup. There's already a complete copy of all…

Hilary Stace

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:25:58 +1200

His former wife used to work for Radio NZ but that was awhile ago.

A S

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:25:41 +1200

I think it’s highly likely we’d be be getting mates rates on NSA tech, so I’m prepared to believe setup costs for software side wouldn’t be all that insurmountable ( and we might even be comped the first 24 months subscriptions for new malware definitions).

If the info about the…

Sacha

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:22:05 +1200

CJM

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:14:00 +1200

Huh?!

Graham Dunster

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:13:20 +1200

Seriously?

Matt Crawford

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:06:43 +1200

I think it's highly likely we'd be be getting mates rates on NSA tech, so I'm prepared to believe setup costs for software side wouldn't be all that insurmountable ( and we might even be comped the first 24 months subscriptions for new malware definitions).

But the physical breach of…

Kevin McCready

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 13:03:33 +1200

Jason Ede is Kathryn Ryan's producer.

CJM

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:58:05 +1200

Yes, seems there are concerted efforts to conflate Speargun and Cortex into one benign, unfinished, unfeasible, untested, underwhelming, uninteresting, business-plan that never happened.
Move along, nothing to see etc…..

Paul Campbell

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:57:04 +1200

This just in from Germany – http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/snowden-documents-indicate-nsa-has-breached-deutsche-telekom-a-991503.html

yes the basic assumption here is that they can hack any router (including your home DSL/fibre gateway and your phone company's cell tower) to see the devices located behind it

llew40

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:54:41 +1200

There are assumptions that any NZ data that may have been witnessed by Snowden must have been collected in NZ (or on its way in or out). However, as I understand it, data that travels internationally becomes subject to the legislation of the land through which it travels or where…

CJM

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:54:37 +1200

"Fuck!"
I wonder what the Telco's response down under will be?

nzlemming

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:52:22 +1200

devil’s advocate: what if the kit is developed by a different source and only needs to be implemented? that would be still be capex, and opex would be BAU for the agency.

I'm guessing you mean some benign third party develops the kit and donates it to the GCSB? Yeah,…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:52:14 +1200

There’s another issue here too. If Key had declassified and released documents that showed that Speargun never went ahead, or that NZ wasn’t part of X-Keyscore, I would almost accept that as being justified rebuttal of a serious accusation, rather than simply declassification for political ends. But declassifying the Cortex…

AndrewH

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:51:47 +1200

From the latest Herald story by Trevett:

"He defended his decision to release Cabinet papers setting out the so-called 'Speargun' protection, which would have allowed the GCSB to tap into the Southern Cross Cable to monitor cyber traffic to New Zealand. That was scrapped in the middle of last year…

Graham Dunster

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:45:47 +1200

This just in from Germany – http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/snowden-documents-indicate-nsa-has-breached-deutsche-telekom-a-991503.html

Steve Voisey

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:45:09 +1200

There are documented cases of routers being intercepted and modified: http://blogs.cisco.com/news/internet-security-necessary-for-global-technology-economy
This proves that tapping the southern cross cable is a serious possibility.

stephen clover

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:39:55 +1200

Yes. This (from the business case):

Technology
41. GCSB is not proposing to procure or develop bespoke systems. No material level of software development is required of GCSB or a second party. The proposal is to procure then integrate capability components already available and tested, [redacted]. The hardware and software…

A S

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:39:06 +1200

The paper would probably need to discuss the source of the kit, and note the fiscal savings offered by taking that course of action compared with another option. Really it depends on how tightly the PMs bods are held to the normal cabinet office and treasury cabinet paper standards.

nzlemming

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:39:04 +1200

There are only two possible ways for this to be so – 1. Either the GCSB are the most frugal and efficient IT experts in whole of Government and can sniff our whole IT infrastructure with a figurative piece of no8 wire, or 2. CORTEX is relatively cheap to set…

Che Tibby

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:36:15 +1200

devil's advocate: what if the kit is developed by a different source and only needs to be implemented? that would be still be capex, and opex would be BAU for the agency.

A S

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:33:08 +1200

Matt, I would definitely agree with your thinking. Government agencies are universally creaking under the lack of funding, and there is almost no way that whole new capabilities can be absorbed within baselines, unless they can be piggybacked on an existing functionality.

It is worth noting that those redacted figures…

Matt Crawford

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 12:10:27 +1200

Keith,

Further to a few tweets between you and Dylan Reeve,

I think there's a decent sized clue into the nature of CORTEX when we look at the how Cabinet approached the funding to establish it. The most relevant part is the first cabinet document CAB Min (14) 25/9, which…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 11:28:33 +1200

Isn’t that the premise for Gremlins ?(or was it Ferris Bueller?):- )

Hollywood has them all! Think of any crooked Government anywhere in the world and Hollywood has a movie. Why , TV has The Black list, House of Cards, Person of Interest.Scandal, all the NCIS'es, about it's own lot.…

SteveH

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 11:14:23 +1200

And just because we don’t like it, doesn’t mean the public at large don’t like it: judging by the (extraordinarily!) blase reaction of many New Zealanders, wholesale metadata scrubbing would probably not be politically controversial.

I can’t believe the public at large would be comfortable with the police recording (as…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:50:34 +1200

He was their new best friend.
It was going to be the coolest sleepover ever.
Isn't that the premise for Gremlins ?
(or was it Ferris Bueller?)
:- )

CJM

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:41:38 +1200

Yes.
What other way would the e-mail be written? Remember Key has basically opened up the shop and said “help yourself”. To the execs eye's he’s bona fide, a 5Eyes player that has the right connections and wants, so desperately, to be part of the gang that he’ll give up…

Alfie

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:29:02 +1200

Notice that 'Cortex' was all Ryan would talk about in her 'interview' with Ferguson this morning on RNZ. She never mentioned Speargun even though this was the explicitly stated and presented evidence from Snowden.
I was also disappointed with Ryan. She's capable of conducting much better interviews than this. Ferguson…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:29:00 +1200

Speargun
of course the subtext
of that name implies
'dead in the water'...

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:25:43 +1200

There is ample evidence that people can be ridiculously stupid, even people such as senior executives.

Prime Ministers even.
I also think that if one feels in control, one doesn't have to worry about what language ,what information is used and who to. I believe Nicky Hager has shown many…

Paul Campbell

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:23:27 +1200

Ian: each bit consists of many billions of photons taking half doesn't remove the information carried by the rest.

To be fair the only well know example of how this was done was the prism (probably many prisms) that was installed in the AT&T switch room in San Francisco – it…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:11:38 +1200

Not even Richard Nixon would write something as incriminating or stupid as that.

While I don't know if the e-mail is a fake or not it is unwise to assume that the people purported to write the e-mail are intelligent or act intelligently. There is ample evidence that people can…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 10:10:18 +1200

photonic friends...
you can tap fibre leads by simply bending them
and collecting the light that doesn’t reflect...
Who knew light cornered so badly?

What happens to the data totality?
Do they just capture the particle,
and the full wave carries on?
Information isn't holographic at that point is it?…

Paul Campbell

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:55:21 +1200

Craig: I think it was a red herring last night, but as an issue it probably needs to be taken in the context of the entire rest of the dotcom case, trying to explain it on 15sec sound bites on TV during an election is not the way to address…

CJM

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:55:13 +1200

Notice that 'Cortex' was all Ryan would talk about in her 'interview' with Ferguson this morning on RNZ. She never mentioned Speargun even though this was the explicitly stated and presented evidence from Snowden.
Ferguson was given a free pass. Harre was talked over, ignored and disbelieved.
Appalling standard of…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:49:24 +1200

Frankly I think the Hollywood thing is a red herring, John Key's lies about mass surveillance are the important issue here

It brings to mind the 'pig-fucker' attack line supposedly used by Lyndon Johnson.

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:39:17 +1200

Frankly I think the Hollywood thing is a red herring, John Key’s lies about mass surveillance are the important issue here

As I’ve said on another thread, Paul, I actually think the integrity of our immigration processes is a real issue to a lot of people. It certainly was when…

Brodie Davis

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:38:22 +1200

The thing is they don't need to do anything as fancy as a underwater intercept on the cable. They can just put equipment in at the Hawaii base stations and then put gag orders on the operators. Of course the operators may not actually know there are taps in place,…

A S

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:26:12 +1200

Precisely!

Paul Campbell

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:25:07 +1200

Frankly I think the Hollywood thing is a red herring, John Key's lies about mass surveillance are the important issue here

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 09:16:52 +1200

I don’t think that Dotcom’s reveal is necessarily a fake, I just don’t think there’s good evidence either way, without some other conforming evidence it doesn’t particularly stand alone.

M'kay... I guess we're talking about Hollywood, hardly the home of sharp and convincing dialogue so who knows? But come on...…

Olly Buxton

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:55:26 +1200

they have very little that isn’t circumstantial to say about that issue.
Sorry – I should have been clearer – by "that issue" I meant "that the National Government lied about it", not that the Metadata scrubbing happens at all. Of course it does (why would NZ be special?). Now…

A S

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:50:02 +1200

So, it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to sum all of this up with:

1. Greenwald/Snowden information pointing to mass surveillance is highly likely to be true, and
2. Our PM released documents unrelated to mass surveillance as evidence we weren’t involved in mass surveillance.

Wonder how the…

Alfie

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:46:19 +1200

How do you 'probe' an optic cable, without breaking it to insert a splitter or somesuch?

In this digital age it can't be that difficult when you have physical access and an unlimited budget. Each connection point for the cable will contain digital switches – tapping into those would be…

Dismal Soyanz

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:43:58 +1200

But equally just because the public tends to be blasé doesn’t mean they like it.…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:39:22 +1200

the light fandango...
How do you 'probe' an optic cable, without breaking it to insert a splitter or somesuch?
Is there a 'transmission' from data-light?
I think the old copper systems 'leaked' and could be tapped that way, but fibre optics?

Does seem to be more logical to be in…

Hilary Stace

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:16:00 +1200

This visit to the NSA in June. Why? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279493&ref=NZH_Tw

JonathanM

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:08:37 +1200

OT: Regarding the herald article, I saw the comment about Key confirming the probe on the cable yesterday, but the article was then updated with info from Southern Cross who said that wasn't possible. The corresponding Stuff article was updated at around the same time, and I can't get to…

Paul Campbell

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 08:06:19 +1200

I don't think that Dotcom's reveal is necessarily a fake, I just don't think there's good evidence either way, without some other conforming evidence it doesn't particularly stand alone.

As someone elsewhere on PA said Key's defence is essentially the "Chewbacca Defence"

Tom Semmens

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 07:49:41 +1200

Snowden made a deep impression on me. The guy is a hero.

Olly Buxton

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 07:47:02 +1200

This is all good stuff. But with the whole Dotcom sideshow, I wonder if the point is being missed here:

It is within a sovereign government's gift to do all of the things that Snowden/Greenwald allege. We might not like it, but it is. And just because we don't like…

Dismal Soyanz

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 07:46:00 +1200

Andrea Vance appears able to at least ask the question.

I wonder what Key's answer will be?

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 07:19:15 +1200

Thanks Keith. Your description here was exactly what I thought as I read the Cortex papers. I thought: this is some other programme, not the one that Snowden and Greenwald are talking about. How convenient, that there was some innocuous other programme proposed at the same time, which they canned.

nzlemming

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 07:02:38 +1200

Keith – your third bullet seems to have been spiked?

I can see it.

ChrisW

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 06:49:43 +1200

According to Key says a "test probe" was built to sit on the Southern Cross cable.
Keith – your third bullet seems to have been spiked?

stephen clover

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 06:16:04 +1200

Great summary, Keith. To be clear: it appears CORTEX was greenlighted in July 2014. However *something else* ("Initiative 7418", enhancing the activity of the National Cyber Security Center) was stopped in Sept 2012 (tho Key claimed it was Mar 2012.)

mark taslov

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 06:09:39 +1200

Good work Keith, but so little to digest, Russell called it. Tracy Watkins has this:

Declassified documents released by Key last night appear to back that up.

But Greenwald and Snowden produced documentation that appeared to directly contradict that. Their case against Key will take longer to unpick

Forcing Key…

nzlemming

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 06:01:07 +1200

Yup. The Cortex release was just one big SQUIRREL!!

Tim Michie

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 05:47:35 +1200

Nice summary Keith.

Public Address

Tue, 16 Sept 2014 05:47:35 +1200

Discussion from blog post.