Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Like the mule with a spinning wheel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Angus Robertson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30480#post30480 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30480#post30480 Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:35:27 +1300 merc https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30282#post30282 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30282#post30282 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:34:44 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30279#post30279 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30279#post30279

The difference, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, is that tertiary students are all (technically) adults. Different standards are applied once people hit 18. Standards often relating to how self-reliant and responsible for their own actions they are expected to be.

There's some children in the tertiary education system…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:32:54 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30274#post30274 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30274#post30274 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:07:37 +1300 nanoplanet https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30272#post30272 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30272#post30272 how outrageous Labour spending all this money on health and education, mismanaging the economy, frittering away cash on things like super annuation funds – and then still having a couple of billion left over!
they should be following the sound economic principles of the Republicans and send the economy into…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:01:49 +1300 Jeremy Andrew https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30267#post30267 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30267#post30267 Its a conversation that needs to be had – whether tertiary education is as much a right of the individual NZer as Primary and Secondary ed.
When the student loans scheme started back in about 1990, the numbers of tertiary students were increasing markedly. Before then, tertiary education was more…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:46:41 +1300 Graeme Edgeler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30266#post30266 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30266#post30266 Damn!

Forgot GST on the Government funding.

Make that 56%/44%.

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:39:24 +1300 Graeme Edgeler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30265#post30265 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30265#post30265

Society (via the taxpayer) still covers something approaching 80% of the course fees.

It's been slowly eroding.

For example in 2008 law – which I studied – will have Government funding of $5039 per student. A full-time domestic law student will pay around $4121 (depends on University, obviously), plus extraneous…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:37:11 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30263#post30263 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30263#post30263

I know what you're saying, but it does pay to keep in mind that the debt a student incurs is a small percentage of the full price of their education. Society(via the taxpayer) still covers something approaching 80% of the course fees.

It's been a long time since the taxpayer…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:32:30 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30261#post30261 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30261#post30261 is a visible financial debt, the student is… ]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:27:12 +1300 Emma Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30252#post30252 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30252#post30252

But it does indicate that society does encourage, and is prepared to carry a chunk of the cost of, tertiary study.

And the entire cost of imprisoning them! Oh wait...

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:54:39 +1300 Jeremy Andrew https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30247#post30247 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30247#post30247

But we do seem to be looking at "student debt" in the wrong way by focussing on the student as a "user" and sole beneficiary of a service.

I know what you're saying, but it does pay to keep in mind that the debt a student incurs is a small…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:42:21 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30220#post30220 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30220#post30220 "Student debt" is no longer such a hurdle, as it is now interest-free (which means paying it off is less urgent than for any other debt).

But we do seem to be looking at "student debt" in the wrong way by focussing on the student as a "user" and sole…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:35:27 +1300 Danielle https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30212#post30212 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30212#post30212 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:11:30 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30210#post30210 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30210#post30210 The less well off ain't 'debt averse'. If only. Take a look around the main drag in Otahuhu or Newtown. They're full of loan sharks. They're lending to people who are already in debt – that's what's behind all those TV ads offering to rationalise people's debts into one package.… ]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:10:06 +1300 Max Call https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30209#post30209 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30209#post30209

Some of this problem would be alleviated by more fulfilling primary/secondary education; a problem that has it's origins in class sizes.

Recent negotiations with teachers (when the govt tried to back out of changes that had already been promised earlier) said only something about schools having to 'endeavour' to have…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:09:02 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30207#post30207 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30207#post30207 Kyle..... I would loooove to see more money in HE and I would love to see wider access to all income brackets (I'd like to be paid better too). But I do think educational investment needs to go further down the tree. The students I teach are for the most… ]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:59:38 +1300 InternationalObserver https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30205#post30205 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30205#post30205

many of them work more than they have to in order to buy stuff they don't really need

1. farken wikid new phone
2. farken wikid new iPod
2. farken wikid new threads
3. farken wikid new pills
4. farken wikid new tachometer for the car
5. farken wikid new…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:52:52 +1300 Rob Hosking https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30204#post30204 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30204#post30204 Kyle,

The less well off ain't 'debt averse'. If only. Take a look around the main drag in Otahuhu or Newtown. They're full of loan sharks. They're lending to people who are already in debt – that's what's behind all those TV ads offering to rationalise people's debts into one…

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:49:25 +1300 kmont https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30194#post30194 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30194#post30194 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:04:24 +1300 81stcolumn https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30176#post30176 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30176#post30176 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:03:44 +1300 Michael Fitzgerald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30173#post30173 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30173#post30173 "5. If you want research-led, innovation economy ... A lot of our top researchers go and work for overseas firms because the research sector here isn't funded well enough."

The contested funding is another great joy. 1/2 your time is getting funding to continue the study & justifying the existance in/of…

]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:47:15 +1300 Angus Robertson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30170#post30170 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30170#post30170 Kyle,

Thanks

]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:26:30 +1300 Michael Fitzgerald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30109#post30109 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30109#post30109 Budget Surplus vs District Council Rate Rises.
A more equitable taxation system seems to be the answer, not tax cuts.

]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:21:36 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30040#post30040 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30040#post30040

How about a cut in GST? It is a regressive tax and a product of the 80/90s neo-liberalism.

GST is a flat tax, that stuff about it being regressive is waffle. It's a flat percentage, not adjusted for your income etc.

The only good thing about GST is that it…

]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:24:09 +1300 Angus Robertson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30025#post30025 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30025#post30025

7. If it's a debate about tax cuts vs expenditure, then it will always be about how much people get back. Low income earners will never get a lot back from tax cuts, because they don't pay a lot of tax.

How about a cut in GST? It is a…

]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:59:45 +1300 Angus Robertson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30019#post30019 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30019#post30019

Great stuff! It *does* give me an idea, though. Revive the Third Reich, level half of Europe and kill, oh, 10-20 million people. That will bring New Zealand back to the top half of the OECD in no time at all.

Anyone want to make that a campaign promise for…

]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:53:42 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30014#post30014 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=30014#post30014 Can't argue about the doctors visits but why should I pay for your kids to go to University? There are plenty of low income working class families who have little hope of their kids getting a University education (ah, yes, but anyone can saddle their child with a lifetime Student… ]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:36:26 +1300 Michael Fitzgerald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29968#post29968 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29968#post29968 Monorail it aint but a circus it sure is – look into the Central Plains Water scheme.

Farmers land sacraficed so richer (AKL based) farming corps can irrgate the Canty plains for Dairty Dairying.

On every point it's wrong.
-Water take – sold to farmers as one flood is enuf…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:53:42 +1300 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29967#post29967 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29967#post29967

I am sure they would explain it all much better than I can. Seems that if we move the country back 150 years in time, to when there were no taxes and we were 2ND IN TEH WORLD, all will be just fine and dandy.

BTW, the "Foundation for Economic…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:38:25 +1300 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29956#post29956 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29956#post29956 Rich wrote:

I think Labour's slogan for the next election should be: "Quit Ya Fuckin Whingin".

Yeah, Rich, where do these stupid peasants think they are – a parliamentary democracy or something? Sheesh... :) Seriously, the last thing Labour needs is Cullen on another of his 'charm offensive, hold the…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:11:55 +1300 InternationalObserver https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29954#post29954 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29954#post29954 I'd much rather see the amount of money I pay to take my kids to the doctor, and the amount of money it'll cost them to go to university come down, well before there's tax cuts.Can't argue about the doctors visits but why should I pay for your kids to… ]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:35:26 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29940#post29940 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29940#post29940 Basically, the government controls a major part of the economy. This is the case in all western democracies and it isn't going to go away.

As a result of this, the way the government manages it's tax and spending affects the whole economy. If they borrow and either spend or…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:43:00 +1300 Rob Hosking https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29924#post29924 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29924#post29924

(FYI: They have been funding infrastructure out of cash. It is unusual, but whether it's dodgy is a question of public accounting.)

Not just a matter of accounting.

There is also the issue of inter-generational equity. The main reason for funding such projects at least partly out of borrowing is…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:45:44 +1300 Angus Robertson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29918#post29918 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29918#post29918

The problem for National is that the value of a tax cut for the country as a whole is necessarily theoretical.

No, you can measure a tax policy impact on the country. If the growth of the economy could be improved by the imput of more capital to consumers, then…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:04:08 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29802#post29802 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29802#post29802

That being said, it is well past time the income tax bracket boundaries were readjusted.

Hear hear! I don't have a problem with a fairly hefty surplus. And if there's going to be a smaller surplus, I'd much rather see the amount of money I pay to take my kids…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:29:21 +1300 Neil Morrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29780#post29780 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29780#post29780

There is a perfectly good case out there, explain why it's better for us to be spending the surplus on tax cuts or whatever rather than on paying off debt. I'm eagerly waiting for it.

On the other hand there could be a good case for an increase in taxation…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:34:40 +1300 Don Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29776#post29776 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29776#post29776 But, Sydney has a mono-rail. It's on the map.

Keith, you obviously missed the ad in the NZ Herald by these folks with this graph.

I am sure they would explain it all much better than I can. Seems that if we move the country back 150 years in time,…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:49:47 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29768#post29768 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29768#post29768 I don't think NZ needs tax cuts as such. The percentage of income tax we pay doesn't seem to me that onerous compared to the services we (expect to) get from government. If anything, there needs to be more funding of, e.g. health, education, and scientific research & development.

That being…

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:52:46 +1300 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29767#post29767 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-like-the-mule-with-a-spinning-wheel/?p=29767#post29767 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:52:46 +1300