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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Leviathan</title>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336586#post336586</link>
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						<p><q>For anyone else who might be tempted, as I was, to read no further, I will say that that’s the only specifically religious reference in there, so if you find general discussion of dead philosophers interesting, read further without fear. </q></p><p>Hobbes was fond of his dram...</p>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:41:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Steve Barnes</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336481#post336481</link>
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						<p><q>It's kinda obvious, really. Intelligence is really only hugely useful if some antagonist doesn't know you've got it, or can get it. </q></p><p>Well, John Key has said that they don't do it so all the "Terrorists" can keep on sending those un-encrypted eMails with all their secrets and plots and…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:10:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kumara Republic</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336435#post336435</link>
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						<q>The “state” in many countries stepped out of bounds a while ago. The question is how do we as subjects of any state (which are after all just people who fool themselves into thinking they are doing a job) get it back to being an intergral part of our lives,…</q>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2015 14:43:53 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336413#post336413</link>
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						The irony being that at the time it was considered quite an irreligious work, since he opposed the idea of ecclesiastical power separate from the sovereign. But his real contribution was the idea of contract theory. I personally despise contract theory, but have to acknowledge its influence. To me, the…
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				<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:18:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>sean mahoney</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336412#post336412</link>
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						Hobbes fascinates and disturbs me in equal measure..to be fair to Lawrence you probably could have written more about God in relation to Hobbes Leviathan as he himself spends far too much of the book writing about scripture et al ...
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				<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2015 09:37:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336407#post336407</link>
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						@Lucy, it seemed like an entirely uncritical summary of Hobbes position, rather than godbothering. Which is not what philosophical analysis is really meant to be about. I couldn't really agree with it. From what I could make out amongst the long abstractions Lawrence is pretty much saying that we should…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2015 19:00:17 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>andin</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336406#post336406</link>
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						<p><q> defining features of liberal democracies, a feature which set them apart from police states. It was important because it set clear boundaries on state power;</q></p><p>The "state" in many countries stepped out of bounds a while ago. The question is how do we as subjects of any state (which are…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:09:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lucy Telfar Barnard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336405#post336405</link>
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						<p>My only comment, Lawrence, was that your first paragraph's segments referring to "Western Christendom" and what Christ would or wouldn't do, made me extremely dubious about where the rest of it was going to go. </p><p>For anyone else who might be tempted, as I was, to read no further, I…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:52:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lawrence Serewicz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336403#post336403</link>
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						<p>Keith,<br />Thanks for a thought provoking post. I have posted a response on my site that offers a  different perspective on the issue. Perhaps, we are paying too low of price for the Leviathan and what it provides. If we paid a higher price, we might think that it had…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2015 13:52:25 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336402#post336402</link>
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						It's kinda obvious, really. Intelligence is really only hugely useful if some antagonist doesn't know you've got it, or can get it. They can just as easily feed false intelligence, which, if believed, has a negative effect, and doesn't even involve the antagonist actually doing anything. We had a prime…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2015 13:18:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336401#post336401</link>
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						<p>In a place where there was an actual terrorist/insurgency campaign going on, like 80's Northern Ireland or Iraq today, you could reasonably feed such a system with (historical) collected intelligence and use actual incidents as "training data".</p><p>When the number of incidents tends to zero, that process becomes a lot…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:51:10 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>sean mahoney</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336396#post336396</link>
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						Hobbes Leviathan " He that complaineth of injury from his sovereign, complaineth of that whereof he himself is author and therefore not to accuse any man but himself " I have finally got the link that is what Key thinks every time someone accuses him of anything..".no its you not…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2015 23:08:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336392#post336392</link>
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						<p><q>provided one doesn’t care to check it for correlation with reality</q></p><p>Even if one cared to, one can't. Because if there actually was some oracle that could tell us how much terrorism there is that we're missing, we'd use that and forget about the data mining.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2015 19:27:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lucy Telfar Barnard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336391#post336391</link>
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						<p><q>I'll vote for any party which goes after our spies with a red-hot castration tool.</q><br />All the spies I know personally are women, so that shouldn't bother them in the slightest.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:56:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336384#post336384</link>
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						<p>Also, consider this:</p><p>&ndash; we have a situation where there has been no organised islamic terrorist actions in NZ, and very few anywhere in the West for over ten years.</p><p>&ndash; human intelligence activity, or just old fashioned community policing is likely to verify that there are no organised terrorist…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:21:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Joe Wylie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336373#post336373</link>
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						<p><q>But when I said don’t be a crank, I was thinking in the context of one on one interactions.</p><p>Best summed up in this classic post from Simon Garlick</q></p><p>Garlick's examples of grassroots crackpottery aren't too different from those described in a mid-90s <em>Sydney Morning Herald</em> piece on a Lower…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2015 06:40:58 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>James Littlewood*</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336372#post336372</link>
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						<p>Greenwald says</p><p><q>Listen to the whole interview: both to see the type of adversarial questioning to which U.S. political leaders are so rarely subjected, but also to see just how obfuscating Key’s answers are.</q></p><p>which is a nice endorsement of natrad eh. But makes me think, who among us here…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 22:32:16 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336369#post336369</link>
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						<p><q>The cellular structure is very difficult to penetrate</q></p><p>Especially when the cell consists of one person and their inner voices.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 21:20:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336365#post336365</link>
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						<p><q>That’s a really strange speech by Fletcher. I can’t really see the point of it, but then I don’t really know who the audience is – it appears to be corporate heads. Which explains why it’s corporate philopsychobabble for the most part.</q></p><p>Fletcher is a corporate man &ndash; it's all…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:02:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336364#post336364</link>
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						<p><q>The point of the title-page drawing is that Leviathan is made of the people. </q></p><p>You're thinking of Soylent Green...</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:57:44 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336363#post336363</link>
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						<p><a href="https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/03/white-house-has-gone-full-doublespeak-fast-track-and-tpp" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">White House has gone full doublespeak fast tracking the TPPA</a><br /><q>In a blog post published this week, the White House flat out uses doublespeak to tout the benefits of the TPP, even going so far as to claim that without these new trade agreements, "there would be no rules protecting…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:43:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336362#post336362</link>
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						<p>I'll see your Ben Franklin quote:<br /><q>Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.</q><br />and raise you a John Adams:<br /><q>Those who trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.</q><br />and<br /><q>In the end, more than freedom, they…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:41:58 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>andin</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336361#post336361</link>
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						<p><q> these are the people who turn up to meetings with their local MPs.</q><br />And the reason MP's kid themselves they are blessed with superior intellects</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 16:16:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336359#post336359</link>
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						<p>I think part of the problem is that the particular kind of threats that have been identified are not particularly amenable to HUMINT. The cellular structure is very difficult to penetrate. No one actually knows anything or anyone. But it is also not amenable to SIGINT either.</p><p>But this problem…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:47:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336356#post336356</link>
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						One wonders if 'they' expend as much effort and money on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_intelligence_%28intelligence_gathering%29" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Hum Int</a> as they spend on Sig Int these days, or has The Great Game had massive redundancies?
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:14:10 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336352#post336352</link>
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						It is a bit silly though. Anyone who does actually want to converse in secret can mostly do so using encryption and proxies. Especially the biggest real threats, foreign powers, which can and do design their own encryption. Only particularly low tech threats could be caught this way, but not…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 13:36:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336351#post336351</link>
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						<p>I think what they're on about is that back in the day, if they wanted to tap someone's phone they'd get a warrant, go along to the telephone exchange and plug some wires in.<br />Now they're arguing that its too hard to go to each internet company with a warrant…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 12:58:48 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336349#post336349</link>
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						That's a really strange speech by Fletcher. I can't really see the point of it, but then I don't really know who the audience is &ndash; it appears to be corporate heads. Which explains why it's corporate philopsychobabble for the most part. Hobbes is always popular in such an environment…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 12:38:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Angela Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336348#post336348</link>
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						<p>We have lies on lies. Dissembling. Unethical and probably illegal behaviour in spite of the laws having been widened.  It seems that in our "democracy" the electorate acshually has no rights at all once voting is over.<br />Certainly not the right to a promised resignation.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 12:37:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336347#post336347</link>
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						<p><q>The Intercept has a report on Key retracting his vow to resign if it was shown that there was mass surveillance of New Zealanders.</q></p><p>I'm not sure you can just retract a political promise like that &ndash; the real issue of course is that at the time Key made that…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 12:11:45 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336346#post336346</link>
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						<p><strong>Turn Key or Turkey?</strong><br /><q> Key retracting his vow to resign if it was shown that there was mass surveillance of New Zealanders.</q><br />Unlike Key I am happy to critique Ferguson &ndash; but what is he saying here:<br /><q> Ferguson: “The whole method of surveillance these days, is sort of a mass…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 11:24:10 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Jan Rivers</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336345#post336345</link>
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						<p>David Rutherford the Human Rights Commissioner last week spoke at a meeting at St Andrews in Wellington and he made an interesting point about proportionality related to surveillance and public safety.</p><p>I don't have his exact words but essentially his idea was that the government don't protect children from violence…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:59:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Stephen Judd</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336344#post336344</link>
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						<p>No doubt that in public debate, opponents are labelled cranks.</p><p>But when I said don't be a crank, I was thinking in the context of one on one interactions.</p><p>Best summed up in <a href="https://www.tumblr.com/search/nocleanfeed" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this classic post from Simon Garlick</a>:</p><p><q>I pulled up at a small park in Adelaide’s north-east suburbs…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:33:11 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336342#post336342</link>
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						<p>The Intercept has a report on <a href="https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/09/new-zealand-prime-minister-promised-resign-country-shown-engage-mass-surveillance-now-retracts-vow/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Key retracting his vow to resign if it was shown that there was mass surveillance of New Zealanders</a>.</p><p>It really does seem this should be bigger news.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:21:05 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336338#post336338</link>
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						<p><strong>Odds on....</strong><br /><q>because they (of course) have “nothing to hide”</q><br />we're on a 'hiding to nothing' it seems...<br />;-  )</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:33:05 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336337#post336337</link>
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						<p><q>After all, "we" (Parliament on the people's behalf) passed the GCSB Bill, didn't we? &amp; the Search &amp; Surveillance Bill (after a struggle) and we all got the opportunity to comment through the Select Committee process.</q></p><p>Though in the case of the most recent anti-terror legislation, the one they rammed through under…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:28:05 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336335#post336335</link>
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						<p>I wonder if that's <a href="https://whitepages.co.nz/w/101640097/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">G T Dick of 34 Miro St, Masterton</a>. </p><p>Maybe someone could put a webcam in that nice tree outside, or have a quick squiz on their mate's friend's work database?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:16:00 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Euan Mason</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336334#post336334</link>
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						<p>Very well written, Keith.  Thanks for this.</p><p>John Key’s hair splitting distinction between “collection” and “surveillance” is designed to let him not keep his word and resign. However, it also implies a much more sinister phrase; “If you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear”.  Now where…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 08:56:46 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Chris Waugh</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336333#post336333</link>
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						<p>In this morning's Dominion Post. I find the attitude problematic, but he does make a good point about the lack of privacy online.</p><p>Welcome to the Panopticon.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 08:13:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Steve Bell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336332#post336332</link>
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						The point of the title-page drawing is that Leviathan is made of the people. I'm sure John Key and the GCSB would make that point if faced with the comparison. After all, "we" (Parliament on the people's behalf) passed the GCSB Bill, didn't we? & the Search & Surveillance Bill (after a…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 07:49:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336330#post336330</link>
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						<p><q>what qualifies one for investigation</q><br />The radical protesters standing there shaking their fist<br />We've got them on our list.<br />And the marijuana advocates who're permanently blissed<br />We've got them on our list.<br />And anyone who questions why we're tapping all your phones<br />And intercepting emails, and surveilling your homes<br />And…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 06:50:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>81stcolumn</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336328#post336328</link>
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						<p><em>'I was shooting my mouth off about saving some fish. Now could that be construed as some radical's views or some liberals' wish'</em></p><p>It seems quite reasonable to draw a distinction between degrees of mass surveilance as to the collection and interrogation of data.  What troubles me is the scope…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2015 01:10:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich Lock</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336327#post336327</link>
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						<p>"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." &ndash; attributed to Cardinal Richelieu.</p><p>I'm not confident that The Musketeers are riding to our rescue this time.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 23:59:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Myles Thomas</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336326#post336326</link>
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						Measured and correct in the face of  <a href="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MB1-UiUOjmE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this</a> and the rest of the bollocks commonly known as political spin and journalism, is a tough ask.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 23:51:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336325#post336325</link>
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						<q>The problem, of course, is that those in power like to paint anyone who doesn’t like the way things are as a crank. Hager, for example, is nothing but measured and correct. And he is spun as a liar, a thief, and a conspiracy theorist for taking what the government…</q>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 23:28:38 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Joe Wylie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336324#post336324</link>
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						<p><q>The problem, of course, is that those in power like to paint anyone who doesn’t like the way things are as a crank.</q><br />Being a house crank like Jamie Whyte is fine. If the example of Brash is any indication, a spent crank won't get a knighthood for services rendered.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 23:28:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336321#post336321</link>
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						<p><q>This is important. Don't be a crank. Be measured and correct.</q></p><p>The problem, of course, is that those in power like to paint anyone who doesn't like the way things are as a crank. Hager, for example, is nothing but measured and correct. And he is spun as a liar,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 22:31:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rob Stowell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336318#post336318</link>
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						It seems we *are* being spied on. I’m angry. It’s not a contract any of us signed up for. We didn’t vote for it.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 20:24:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>B Jones</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336317#post336317</link>
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						I'd be happy to license the title "Turing's Bastards" to anyone writing a book about all this, for a nominal fee.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 20:19:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>B Jones</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336316#post336316</link>
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						<p>It really ups the cost of any kind of activism, doesn't it. Anyone heard when Nicky Hager's likely to get his computer back?</p><p>What gets me is how you can actually make good decisions with all that info. With that much data, surely it's tempting to just confirm your own…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 20:14:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336315#post336315</link>
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						<p><q>Make an effort to work with MPs while not being a crank</q></p><p>This is important. Don't be a crank. Be measured and correct.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 19:19:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Moz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336312#post336312</link>
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						<p><q>the difference between mass data collection and mass surveillance is that if I have left a blamelessly obscure life so far, chances are that nobody has bothered to read any of the emails I've sent,...</q></p><p>Technically yes, in the John Key sense of "yes, of course". The data is unquestionably…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 19:04:05 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Alastair Thompson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336308#post336308</link>
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						Mass Data Collection is Mass Surveillance. As soon as they want to find you and track down your friends and family and associates they can. As soon as someone with the right level of access wants to destroy your life by trawling through your secrets they can. Nowhere to run…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 18:35:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>B Jones</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336305#post336305</link>
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						Do I understand this correctly: the difference between mass data collection and mass surveillance is that if I have left a blamelessly obscure life so far, chances are that nobody has bothered to read any of the emails I've sent, my purchase history, library books and other online communications and…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:59:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336304#post336304</link>
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						<strong>Pedigree ¢hum(p)</strong><q>Key […] has pedigree</q> <em>De$¢ent</em> anyway. But you meant history, not biology?
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:31:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Stephen Judd</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336303#post336303</link>
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						<p>Leviathan is biblically a large sea monster, but these days in modern Hebrew, livyatan is... a whale.</p><p>I feel there's an angle there.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:29:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336301#post336301</link>
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						<p><strong>The worm turns...</strong><br />I also wonder if Leviathan is related to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Ourobos</a> &ndash; who we'll be seeing in any <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Ragnarok</a> coming soon...</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:14:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336300#post336300</link>
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						<p><strong>Gone up north for a while...</strong><br /><q>help political parties that promise the closest policy to what you want to see</q><br />What happens if some party (that happens to be in power) suddenly offers to fix your woefully inadequate bridges &ndash; but you know that that is just their selfserving redirection…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:01:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Stephen Judd</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336299#post336299</link>
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						<p><q>What do to you, I, we do?</q></p><p>Make an effort to work with MPs while not being a crank, submit to select committees, join and/or help political parties that promise the closest policy to what you want to see, use social media to spread real-world stories of abuses, use whatever…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 16:37:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mike.riversdale</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336296#post336296</link>
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						<p>So, now what?</p><p>If, as it seems to me by the conversation (or lack) from my family &amp; friends this is a non-subject then what do we, who claim to be appalled actually do?</p><p>I have no answer. I am at a lost.<br />What do to you, I, we do?</p><p>(Keith…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 16:25:03 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Alastair Thompson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336292#post336292</link>
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						<p>I am very glad you wrote this Keith. There is a mode of thinking which is gaining currency among our editorial leaders that if the public are not overly concerned about at thing  &ndash; such as mass surveillance &ndash; then we shouldn't be either.</p><p>For me the issue is this.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:48:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336287#post336287</link>
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						I want a smaller Leviathan, one which is less hungry for my freedoms and less likely to run amok by e.g. giving false data to the PM's office to smear the leader of the opposition, or by spying on whole countries, or by conducting massive "incidental" spying on kiwis. As…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:24:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-leviathan/?p=336286#post336286</link>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:24:27 +1300</pubDate>
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