3 News is hardly worth watching

It is indeed all relative. We might try TVNZ 7 news.

3 News is hardly worth watching, unless you require news about Lady Gaga's ex-boyfriend, unusual car crashes on YouTube, odd TradeMe auctions,

John Campbell will be interviewing the washing machine at 7,

Tiger Woods' many mistresses or Madonna's adoptions.

There, I fixed it.
;-)

My partner has finally agreed with me that TV One news isn't worth watching, and is switching to 3.

3 News is hardly worth watching, unless you require news about Lady Gaga's ex-boyfriend, unusual car crashes on YouTube, odd TradeMe auctions, Tiger Woods' many mistresses, or Madonna's adoptions.

Can you tell I was not particularly impressed?

I had the same reaction. I was listening not watching the news item, but I wondered why they were covering it until they mentioned the Pacific series on TV.

Using a massacre of prisoners in our past to flog your TV show.…

In February 1943 a bunch of Japanese POWs in a camp in Featherston refused to join…

Word is the Thai Army's Psych Ops is playing the redshirts Boney M right now. Better than water cannons for breaking resolve perhaps

It's to my girlfriend's shame that Bony M would bring me to the scene quicker than just about anything.

'There was a cat that really was gone': the greatest ever historical analysis of anything in pop lyric form.

Hmm, I'd argue for The Stranglers.

Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky? He got an ice pick. That made his ears burn.

From my limited understanding, I believe that U.S. troops are allowed (are almost expected to in some cases) to refuse to obey illegal orders.

My point was made in response to the claim that they're 'volunteer actions'. Which is a pretty broad statement to apply to the training that US…

Emperor Hirohito's ultimate authority

anyone who has read a reasonable cross-section of Japanese history 1850-1945, and especially 1915-1945, will understand that the Showa emperor never had "ultimate authority" even though everything was done in his name. a lot of machinations and manipulations went on in the army, navy and their…

This is worth watching, from a friend of ours:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AATZQeLIUCY

Ra-Ra Rasputin

'There was a cat that really was gone': the greatest ever historical analysis of anything in pop lyric form.

On reflection, Ra-Ra Rasputin sounds quite appealing

. . . Russia's greatest love machine. That's what immediately sprang to mind when I read your post above. Pray they don't use the godawful Ma Baker.

Didn't they use the boss at gitmo?

And Queen & Aerosmith got Noriega out of his hole in Panama so they could quickly tuck him away in the he knows far too much about us holding pens in Florida for the rest of his life.

On reflection, Ra-Ra Rasputin sounds quite…

I'm not sure that the Tokyo War Crimes Trial made all that much of anything clear.

Hence the comments posted afterwards by both Joe and myself.

Nuremberg and Tokyo made it very clear that the primary responsibility for the more wide ranging crimes that led to those orders still lies further up the chain of command, as the sweeping indictments in those trials made evident.

I'm not sure that the Tokyo War Crimes Trial made all…

Please keep us updated, if the situation warrants it

Word is the Thai Army's Psych Ops is playing the redshirts Boney M right now. Better than water cannons for breaking resolve perhaps

Provincial editorial perspectives and the pull of mother Europe's heartstrings still reign in some circles it seems.

That's it, Sacha.

Thanks, Simon. Please keep us updated, if the situation warrants it and if you have the time.

Provincial editorial perspectives and the pull of mother Europe's heartstrings still reign in some circles it seems. Sooner they die out the…

Soldiers get court-martialled for not following orders. From boot camp, they have it pounded into them that they have to follow orders, no matter what they think about them personally.

Yes, soldiers and officers do get court martialled for not following orders, but that does not include, as A S…

Soldiers get court-martialled for not following orders. From boot camp, they have it pounded into them that they have to follow orders, no matter what they think about them personally.

From my limited understanding, I believe that U.S. troops are allowed (are almost expected to in some cases) to refuse…

No one made him to do, ultimately it was a voluntary act by a volunteer soldier.

Soldiers get court-martialled for not following orders. From boot camp, they have it pounded into them that they have to follow orders, no matter what they think about them personally.

Sadly, when those orders…

The decision to protect the Emperor had been taken, and the victors would ensure that "their" justice would produce a suitable outcome.

And moved into absolute and final revisionism when the war in Korea, to protect a dictator who was little better than the one in the North, but was…

Nuremberg and Tokyo made it very clear that the primary responsibility for the more wide ranging crimes that led to those orders still lies further up the chain of command, as the sweeping indictments in those trials made evident.

While assigning primary responsibility to the real enablers is fine in…

I said the primary moral responsibility for this massacre lies with the pilot, because he pulled the trigger.

yeah, this is the nazi-hunter approach as well. you blame the individual because he has the choice to kill or not to kill.

this is inaccurate though. like simon says, the hierarchy…

So yes, for me the pilot is the primary guilty party for it was he who pulled the trigger when he had the choice as a moral being to refuse to do so.

I don't think the WW2 trials allocated primary responsibility to those that pulled the triggers. They said…

My proposition is indeed a simple, uncompromising one, and that is we are all responsible for our actions.

But this wasn't one man – it was a group of similarly brainwashed men in the army of a country that regards itself as above all others. I think simple and uncompromising…

George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld covered up that hundreds of innocent men were sent to the Guantánamo Bay prison camp because…

but this is possibly the worst possible example with which to illustrate it.

I'm not sure if there are any good examples left. The militarisation of the US since WW2 to a place where the having performed service to the state now overrides the ethics of what they did when…

And more, lots more

Yep. I get Keith's point, but this is possibly the worst possible example with which to illustrate it.

Washburn testified on a panel that discussed the rules of engagement (ROE) in Iraq, and how lax they were, to the point of being virtually nonexistent.

"During the course of my three tours, the rules of engagement changed a lot," Washburn's testimony continued, "The higher the…

Josh Stieber, who is a former soldier of the “Collateral Murder” Company, says that the acts of brutality caught on film and recently released via Wikileaks are not isolated instances, but were commonplace during his tour of duty.

"A lot of my friends…

We looked at the evidence with an open mind. We interpreted the nuances. Shit, the Web has done little else for the last week. To still think after reviewing all the evidence that it could have been a honest mistake is not being "open minded". It's being obtuse.

I was…

Worth a read
http://gawker.com/5512623/reuters-chief-shoots-down-story-on-killing-of-his-own-staffers-in-baghdad

human rights lawyers and other experts who have viewed the footage say they have many concerns about how the pilots operated, particularly when it came to firing on the van, which was also carrying two children who were wounded in the attack.

"I don't think…

the real culprit is the cabal who moved this machine into iraq in the first place, and who continue to justify the slaughter with trite aphorisms about freedom.

And used the persistent state of fear they engineered to keep the Amerikan public writing those cheques.

And, boy, have the Bushies…

what this and other videos have given us is a small glimpse into what must be a widespread pattern of indiscriminate killing by US forces

and that this type of murder of civilians is commonplace in all war zones.

the more i…

To still think after reviewing all the evidence that it could have been a honest mistake is not being "open minded". It's being obtuse.

Keith has made us think about it and some of the results of that process have been powerful (for me anyway). Thanks Keith. I wouldn't call…

If you don't approach the facts with an open mind, if you don't take care to interpret the nuances and the details, to consider alternatives, then you're just pissing in the wind, wildly casting accusations about. What good does that do anyone?

Did you find that strawman in a packet…

Should the soldiers who pulled the trigger carry the blame? Should it be the commanders who gave the green light? The generals who authorised the Rules of Engagement? The politicians who put them there in the first place?

The blame lies squarely with the politicians who got us into this…

When I watched that video, the words of Jacob Bronowski came powerfully to me...

Speaking of video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mIfatdNqBA

Keith, it is all of them.

That's a trite answer, and it contradicts what you said an hour ago:

Oh I just want to be clear where the guilt lies here. It doesn't lie with the US military system – as much as they have lost their moral compass. It…

Joe: thanks for making me express myself more clearly, which forced me to think more clearly.

Hey, totally undeserved. Appreciate your insights, thanks for taking the trouble.

beware the fundamental attribution error

Worth noting that we're wired as observers to explain away problems as being a result of individual behaviour rather than systemic choices.

And that combat training perverts the way soldiers reason and morally experience the world – so that they are capable of killing.

All…

When I watched that video, the words of…

I feel like I have to add that I don't think the people who pulled the trigger are morally in the clear. There are certainly soldiers who wouldn't have done what these ones did.…

You don't care about the commanders who authorised engagement after asking "They're picking up the wounded?", and when it was confirmed, *then* said they could engage?

Should the soldiers who pulled the trigger carry the blame? Should it be the commanders who gave the green light? The generals who authorised the Rules of Engagement? The politicians who put them there in the first…

"How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause. Such a fine, sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us thousands of people…

They may have started out much like any other human being, but thanks to the unquestioning obedience instilled by military training, and the circumstances in which they've been placed, they've become, to a degree, dehumanized.

As for the "coping response to a job that involves you killing other human beings",…

None of it makes it right, but they are real distinctions, and it should make a difference to how we feel about the situation and the people involved.

I really couldn't be arsed commenting in this thread, for the simple reason it seems to me only an idiot could equivocate…

I'm horrified by this video, but lets not kid ourselves that the people pulling the trigger are crazy or monstrous. They're not. They're just like you and just like me and just like the people they killed in every important way.

They may have started out much like any other…

yeah, my viewing of the vid suggests that it may well have initially been a mistake. but... the subsequent conduct of the pilots belies that as a factor, and they were instead actively seeking *any* target they could construe as "legitimate".

this was further belied by their response.…

Nothing new in that. Anyone remember It became necessary to destroy the town to save it?

Yep and all these decades latter can anyone tell me exactly how the deaths of 2 million Vietnamese in the name of America's freedom / domino war actually advanced that nation?

This bullshit didn't…

starship troopers

It became necessary to destroy the town to save it

And saving whales requires killing them

yeah, my viewing of the vid suggests that it may well have initially been a mistake. but... the subsequent conduct of the pilots belies that as a factor, and they were instead actively seeking *any* target they could construe as "legitimate".

this was further belied by their response. the humane…

Even if having AKs counts as PID (which does seem pretty dubious), that doesn't justify shooting…

You need to kill Iraqi's to give them a future?

Nothing new in that. Anyone remember It became necessary to destroy the town to save it?

this was further belied by their response. the humane…

and everyone freaked out about an "RPG".

When I see a guy with an rpg I know the rule is to stay calm but i always get a bit nervy.

Simon, there may well have been hundreds of suspect incidents, where the US military's ROE were either bent or broken and deaths resulted, but that is out of how many missions? Probably an average of hundreds of missions per day over 7 years and longer in Afghanistan, a hell of…

How many people would Hussein's regime have killed since 2003 if he was still in power?

^^ Kyle.

And far more have died during the post 2003 American occupation, than the already awful numbers usually given for deaths under the Saddam regime.

Really James, you always seem to go back…

are we certain it was even an RPG? looked like a big telescopic lens on a camera to me. not really pointy enough to be an RPG

Yes, I think what was identified as an RPG was a camera lens. No, it wasn't pointy enough to be an RPG, but…

Just for staters: 'unmarked'? I think a uniform for non-combatants raises a number of problems.

I can't resist pointing out…

How many people would Hussein's regime have killed since 2003 if he was still in power?

A lot less than was killed by the US led sanctions, which were estimated at killing half a million people during the 1990s.

Uncharming compilation of GI stories on the effective ROE here.

My opinion, but not my words. Those words were written by Firedoglake, a progressive…

are we certain it was even an RPG? looked like a big telescopic lens on a camera to me.

This point has been noted by other commentators.

James: They received the green light to engage before an RPG was identified.

are we certain it was even an RPG? looked like a big telescopic lens on a camera to me. not really pointy enough to be an RPG

Still, freedom isn't free, right?

not when it's backrupting america...

It is further estimated that there has been a minimum of 92,489 Iraqi civilian deaths up to June 2009.

The Lancet surveys, despite the millions spent by the right to try and demolish their methodology and just about everything else, stands untouched as research into violent deaths in Iraq. It's…

Shall we count how many Democrats voted for it? How many members of the UK Labour Party? Shall we pretend the Labour government in NZ didn't send troops? Christopher Hitchens? Hallo?

I can't help think you know the answer to this. These parties are just one half of a two…

That clearly wasn't nerves though. Complete detachment from the humanity of it. Joy at how accurate their shooting was.

Those guys sounded like they were shitting themselves,o.k they weren't screaming but they were convinced shit was about to happen to them.
Maybe you get a detachment from humanity when you…

and this:
http://chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1949-an-unaccustomed-truth-american-commander-admits-afghan-atrocities.html

Also the longer version made it clearer that one of the people was carrying RPG. An RPG is a sure sign someone is up to no good.

I'll need a pretty impeccable source on this before I'm willing to conceed any of the people in that group were carrying RPG's.…

Shall we count how many Democrats voted for it? How many members of the UK Labour Party? Shall we pretend the Labour government in NZ didn't send troops? Christopher Hitchens? Hallo?

Liberal really is a useless word in these discussions without definition. I wouldn't consider a bunch of these people…

Shall we count how many Democrats voted for it? How many members of the UK Labour Party? Shall we pretend the Labour government in NZ didn't send troops? Christopher Hitchens? Hallo?

If you want to lump the whole world into two camps – liberal and not liberal I suppose you're…

What did one of the crew say when he heard there were children in the van? "Their fault for bringing kids to a battle"?

Yup, that was the reaction to finding out children were in the van that they wasted.

Further on in the video ( the full length version…

...and jesus stop with the "liberal" arguement christaan,it's poor, the causes of this war lay predomiantly in circles who haven't had a liberal thought in their lifetime.

Shall we count how many Democrats voted for it? How many members of the UK Labour Party? Shall we pretend the Labour government…

The US Govt. has brought a war to their neighborhood for completely made up reasons and yet we can just hand wave it all away as shouldn't have been in a warzone.

What did one of the crew say when he heard there were children in the van? "Their fault…

...and jesus stop with the "liberal" arguement christaan,it's poor, the causes of this war lay predomiantly in circles who haven't had a liberal thought in their lifetime.

Kia ora Jeremy!

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I have to take exception to it though.

First off lets start with this....

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55644/collateral%20damage.gif

Pretty clear and unadulterated murder of a civilian.

I read today that the 17 min video was taken from a 38 min video that made it clearer that…

I mean could you even imagine being there? What day would your nerves just start shooting?

That clearly wasn't nerves though. Complete detachment from the humanity of it. Joy at how accurate their shooting was.

We can't go on screaming our heads off at kid soldiers because they are set up to fail, and…

However to me it doesn't seem to be a very useful starting point for serious questions about how and why modern technowar as practised by the US consistently results in these appalling things happening.

Everyday somewhere in the world i'm sure a camera would catch unspeakable acts of violence committed…

I have seen quite a few of these “gun sight“ videos out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but this one is worse because you know there are apparently some non-combatants involved, with the other videos it was very clear that it was insurgents on the receiving end.

Yeah, they don't tend…

Actually I think it has more to do with the fact that so many self-described moderates didn't take a stronger view against Blair, Bush and their fanaticism. They were too busy telling themselves how great Blair and the bombing of Yugoslavia was.

Don't take it out on this blog, then.

Keith, none of that really came across in your original post.

Well as far as I could see, it was there for the interpreting.

The idea that the Left in the last ten years has been too intransigent is just bloody ridicolous, to the point of being offensive. Try 'not nearly intransigent or principled enough'.

I agree with you. But probably in relation to the current two wars in the Middle East, too small…

However to me it doesn't seem to be a very useful starting point for serious questions about how and why modern technowar as practised by the US consistently results in these appalling things happening.

So, where's a good starting point? Looking at the Wikileak video and saying 'hey, what if…

It also sounds to me like not wanting to collude with murderers. And frankly I'm okay with that.

Well, when you put it that way, certainly it's hard not to be okay with not wanting to collude with murderers. However to me it doesn't seem to be a very useful…

do you realise just how similar this sounds to the zero-middle-ground arguments that helped get the US and the rest of us into this clusterfuck in the first place?

Actually I think it has more to do with the fact that so many self-described moderates didn't take a stronger view…

(edit : amongst the whole wrongness of the entire rampage )

Now this is obviously just a part of your post, but do you realise just how similar it sounds to the zero-middle-ground arguments that helped get the US and the rest of us into this clusterfuck in the first place?

It also sounds to me like not wanting to collude…

And that's why you've made the mistake of decontextualising something that should be condemned into something that is, oops, just a mere mistake... move along people.

I think Keith's post was actually pretty open-ended in that regard. Some of the points he's just made in his comment above probably could…

This is why I only care about the trees.

And that's why you've made the mistake of decontextualising something that should be condemned into something that is, oops, just a mere mistake... move along people.

My purpose in writing this post is that a whole new channel of raw news has just come out of beta. This new form of raw news is rich and complex, and allows us to be nuanced in a way that the MSM…

And, yes, I do feel bad now...

It'll pass. Don't let those running dogs of the imperialists get you down.

Just sayin'

And, yes, I feel bad now...

regime change is not a legitimate case for war

Oil, on the other hand..

At least Saddam was an Iraqi.

A Sunni first, an Iraqi second I'd say.

The old two wrongs make a right trick.

Nope but it goes both ways. Saddam's horrors don't justify Bush's, as the Americans and an expat vistor who strolls into this forum every now and then would…

FWIW, we rather conspicuously refused to join the Alliance of the Willing, or whatever the hell Bush liked to call it (I'm honestly surprised he didn't just go with "The Good Guys".) Afghanistan is another kettle of fish, though, and I wouldn't expect a pullout there any time soon.

Not…

Agreed, but lets not forget that Saddam too, as part of an Iraqi tradition, very violently removed the one he replaced some years back.

The old two wrongs make a right trick. At least Saddam was an Iraqi.

Legit governance of any sort is not something most Iraqis have had…

Cmon, how can it count if you violently removed the previous government and installed your own puppets – same as Afghanistan. Free elections my arse.

Agreed, but lets not forget that Saddam too, as part of an Iraqi tradition, very violently removed the one he replaced some years back.

Legit…

Isn't that one way they recruit them these days?

They built this for kids to come and get a taste of the army experience

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM0cR_G6t4c&feature=player_embedded#

FWIW, we rather conspicuously refused to join the Alliance of the Willing, or whatever the hell Bush liked to call it

Not quite true, we just made a point of underplaying our involvement.

A list of those in the so-called coalition. Our involvement was small and was not at the…

finally, they make reference to "bushmaster" which is probably the 25mm variety of autocannon (i still need to watch the remainder of the vid)

I think Bushmaster was the callsign for the ground team.

http://collateralmurder.com/en/transcript.html

So will New Zealand stop supporting US military campaigns?

FWIW, we rather conspicuously refused to join the Alliance of the Willing, or whatever the hell Bush liked to call it (I'm honestly surprised he didn't just go with "The Good Guys".) Afghanistan is another kettle of fish, though, and I…

For what it's worth this is still an enduring favourite of mine.

echo night after day after
evernight and never
while the redeyed warrior
tries to sleep -ever
go away

and we wonder
why lacerated land
her people and all who thought
safe haven here
see daily violence…

I think your point around assessing exactly what the points of failure are here is…

The Government of Iraq (elected by the Iraqi people) has asked the US to be there, therefore that the US is there isn't illegal.

Cmon, how can it count if you violently removed the previous government and installed your own puppets – same as Afghanistan. Free elections my arse.

Do you think this may have been just a terrible mistake too?

It worked in Vietnam

A sentence you don't often see; ) Interesting post.

And shouldn't these rednecks have been asking the opposite question?

How many journalists has the U.S. killed in Iraq now I wonder. Seems to be working out quite well…

The answer is no, this is simply an adjunct to the initial illegal act of aggressive war, the supreme war crime.

liberal apologists like Keith

I didn't see that. I also didn't see that he approved of the US presence in Iraq. Rather that judging the whole on a part may lead to distortions of vision and that it might be more complicated than that. Seemed like a thoughtful post to…

Also, although the invasion may have been unlawful, such a complaint cannot be leveled at the continued presence of US and other forces in 2007, which by then was at the invitation of the Iraqi Government.

War of aggression was described by the Nuremberg Tribunal as the supreme international crime…

Is it any wonder people want to fly planes into their buildings?

Although I have heard that some of these rounds are so powerful that they only have to pass within a meter of you to kill.

That and some of the pavement being converted into supersonic concrete shards by the impact of the rounds.

Oh well, freedom isn't free!

Bad bloody business. Greenwald's been emphasising just how typical and expected this is, though.

I thought that the President of Iraq had recently expressed a wish that the USA should leave?

I believe the President of the United States has expressed the same wish...

My thought, watching the video, was that with all that wonderful technology and information at their disposal they seemed to be missing only a pair of high-powered binoculars.

I think the video was already put through binoculars. The aircraft taking it probably was a km or so back. Whether or…

But it does seem a tad optimistic to expect the lads to just follow the rules in what is otherwise an illegal war.

March 20…

I can't realistically see Saddam having offered the same invitation had he been in office in 2007, unless of course the country had been ravaged by some other invader.

I can't see how that's relevant.

The Government of Iraq (elected by the Iraqi people) has asked the US to be…

Not at all.

In the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, charges of murder resulted in findings of not guilty precisely because of the distinction between lawful wars (which the Japanese attack on Perl Harbor was not) with the lawful conduct of war (which many of the actions were – you kill…

Includes references to video 'from Apache'; I think we can consider that one settled. I do recall seeing another gunsight vid in the countryside where the chopper was so far aways the victims didn't notice it.

Though the AP says the [[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10636842|US Mil are having trouble…

finally, they make reference to "bushmaster" which is probably the 25mm variety of autocannon

Bushmaster

The M242 is not used on aircraft. The AC-130U and the AV-8 Harrier II use a different 25 mm weapon, the 5-barrel GAU-12/U. The sister weapon of the M242, the M230 30 mm chain gun,…

But it does seem a tad optimistic to expect the lads to just follow the rules in what is otherwise an illegal war.

Not at all.

In the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, charges of murder resulted in findings of not guilty precisely because of the distinction between lawful wars (which…

makes sense. it seems to take an awful long time for those chaingun rounds to reach their target. also, the movement of the camera was odd for a chopper…

Bloody hell, that injured man from the initial shoot-up crawling away on hands and knees, and the crosshairs on him and the chopper crew just aching for him to pick up a weapon so they have a reason to blow him to pieces...

I'm not defending the murder at all but "occupation" sounds so sensible on news reports where in reality it's…

But were they American children?

Because that seems to be all they care about. Everyone else is a wog to them.

Well, the soldier in the video seemed pretty keen to get help for the young girl he was carrying, and attempted to get her and her brother to a…

There are going to be fuckups in wars, if we insist on having them.

But it does seem a tad optimistic to expect the lads to just follow the rules in what is otherwise an illegal war.

The initial coverup and denials are truly damning though. The initial claims were that it was a terror group engaging, which a…