Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Fiscal Responsibility is the New Black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address merc https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=236409#post236409 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=236409#post236409 Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:21:17 +1300 Lucy Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=236408#post236408 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=236408#post236408 Apparently he wasn’t that pleased about national standards, and I’m pretty sure he didn’t approve of the way they were hammered into schools.

Why does National always manage to get people who are experienced and knowledgeable in a sector and then keep them strictly away from actual policy decisions about…

]]> Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:10:49 +1300 Hilary Stace https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235964#post235964 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235964#post235964 Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:24:55 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235958#post235958 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235958#post235958 Oh and Islander, Parcel sent to you Monday afternoon, hope pickle stays intact :)

O you beauties!
I will ask a neighbour to pick it up with care, and cherish it until I get back on the weekend-ka mihi aroha mai na koutou – n/n/K

]]> Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:17:39 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235887#post235887 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235887#post235887 Does lettuce have a season?

Sorry to drag this along but lettuce being seasonal is now at $1.60 at Countdown. Truss Tomatoes $2.98 / kilo
Oh and Islander, Parcel sent to you Monday afternoon, hope pickle stays intact :)
Righto going away now .......

]]> Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:47:16 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235774#post235774 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235774#post235774 GV's are a matter of public record.

You can also look the place up on Google Maps, or wonder whether it's this guy's house – must be a lot of dollars in house pr0n.

Will all be very useful when the revolution starts...

]]> Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:12:31 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235772#post235772 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235772#post235772 Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:04:57 +1300 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235763#post235763 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235763#post235763 That's tax money that's coming out of workers' pockets instead of asset owners

All expenses relating to a rental ppty are paid by the tenant.

]]> Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:58:17 +1300 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235732#post235732 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235732#post235732 And then there's This Guy who doesn't think he pays enough, DOH!
Geoff Burton's house at [redacted], Glendowie, has gone from a capital value of $2.3 million to just $1.5 million – despite the suburb's values rising by 7.79 per cent overall.

Mr Burton is one of more than…

]]> Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:45:40 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235712#post235712 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235712#post235712 the GST goes to the central Government, not the local council

True. It's more like the state/federal taxes in some other nations.

]]> Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:42:20 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235711#post235711 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235711#post235711 Local government has always mainly been about managing land-based activities and effects, and its revenue basis has reflected that.

The most recent comprehensive review of local authority income has not been properly implemented by either of the last two governments, though I'm sure we'll see some remodelling along less evidence-based…

]]> Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:41:02 +1300 Hans Versluys https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235708#post235708 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235708#post235708 And the GST goes to the central Government, not the local council.
Rates should be abolished anyway and replaced by a transfer from central Govt of a percentage of all income and GST taxes collected in your local body area. Cheaper to run, fairer to implement, more stable revenue and…

]]> Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:35:59 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235706#post235706 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235706#post235706 Allan Peachey does not make it to retirement ]]> Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:34:10 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235506#post235506 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235506#post235506 Sun, 06 Nov 2011 17:31:38 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235498#post235498 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235498#post235498 Why? It's no different to a slightly higher tax?

(So if you pay 0.37c in the dollar, that's a 0.37% tax, which with GST is a 0.43% tax).

Now, if you make a 5% capital gain on the property, that's taxed at 0%, so you're effectively being subsidised 1.67% -…

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 14:59:06 +1300 merc https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235497#post235497 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235497#post235497 Sun, 06 Nov 2011 14:17:43 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235496#post235496 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235496#post235496 GST on rates seems a bit on the nose.

Yes, tax on tax is mean.

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:45:43 +1300 merc https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235495#post235495 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235495#post235495 Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:33:17 +1300 George Darroch https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235493#post235493 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235493#post235493 I'm about 99% sure the Greens (the party I'm a member of) oppose it categorically rather than conditionally – there is simply too much to fix, and too much they've publicly opposed in very strong terms (Pharmac being merely one).

However, I haven't seen a public statement giving that assurance…

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:15:39 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235492#post235492 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235492#post235492 What is Labour and the Greens current stance on the TPPA?

Well, that have been making noise as both see the demise of Pharmac. Suppose I can go away and find details... ;)

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:12:16 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235491#post235491 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235491#post235491 Stuart Nash on fresh fruit and Veg study ]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:01:13 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235490#post235490 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235490#post235490 Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:46:37 +1300 Cecelia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235488#post235488 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235488#post235488 Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:18:22 +1300 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235487#post235487 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235487#post235487 Gardening tools and supplies like compost or fertilisers are not cheap in more than trifling quantities.
'Half a tonne of ammonium nitrate. Would that be for agricultural purposes, or for an improvised explosive device, in which case GST would apply'.

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:01:45 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235482#post235482 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235482#post235482 subsidy on the farming sector

that's the ETS, and govt-funded irrigation if/when the Nats get re-elected.

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:35:54 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235481#post235481 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235481#post235481 why is the GST exemption not proposed for buying seedlings or seeds?

Fair point. See comments above about more actively supporting growing our own than via tax. Gardening tools and supplies like compost or fertilisers are not cheap in more than trifling quantities.

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:33:15 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235480#post235480 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235480#post235480 Subcity…*
I’m not a fan of exemptions generally, if the goal is improving health. In Australia, the idea was to not cause a rise in the cost of food…
…and I wonder if No GST or any Exemption or Refund system would be seen as some kind of subsidy on…

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:27:34 +1300 Hans Versluys https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235479#post235479 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235479#post235479 Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:10:29 +1300 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235478#post235478 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235478#post235478 The problem with GST is that it's a regressive tax generally. That can be offset in income taxes.

I'm not a fan of exemptions generally, if the goal is improving health. In Australia, the idea was to not cause a rise in the cost of food, without suggesting that poor…

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:05:24 +1300 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235473#post235473 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235473#post235473 Works for real, just like capitalism says it should.

People respond to incentives! Fuck Yeah Rational Interest!

This is exactly why I am so puzzled at the hatred of GST exemption of fruit and veg. According to totally boring neo-classicist economics it is a good idea. Yet many people committed…

]]> Sun, 06 Nov 2011 00:14:05 +1300 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235472#post235472 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235472#post235472 Has anyone demonstrated that GST -free fresh food has increased its consumption, in Australia or elsewhere, relative to non-fresh food?
The Australian exemption's for food, fresh or otherwise, so their experience isn't likely to provide any useful data. No GST on food was a condition of a deal cut by…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 23:14:43 +1300 tussock https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235471#post235471 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235471#post235471 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:55:55 +1300 Nat https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235461#post235461 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235461#post235461
Perhaps, though there's plenty of GST exempt products in Australia and the world still spins.

Yes, although there was outrage there too when the deal was done. And that was when retailers had more flexibility with their POS systems (as they were implementing GST for the first time). Here it…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:09:05 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235455#post235455 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235455#post235455 No, to the rates/lower income bit (trouble is, OFR got invaded by very wealthy people in the early part of this century, who built ugly but huge houses, and thus raised the rating levels for all us normal little early resident subhumans...

very much YES!! (and thanks!) for dried chillis!…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 19:28:37 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235452#post235452 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235452#post235452 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:33:53 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235451#post235451 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235451#post235451 Just added a leetle bluecheese & my last red chilli to the mix – smells gorge-ous!

Most of my windowsills already have plants – trouble, my house is too cold (one side) or too hot (west side...)

Howsomever – looks like I'll be um urged* to leave here before the next…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:10:10 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235450#post235450 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235450#post235450 mine is growing in a average pot on the deck. What about a widowsill?

butternut squash, with a good egg/breadcrumb & onion & sage & garlic stuffing

Oh yummy! I'm thawing prawns for szechuan noodles. numnumnumnum :)

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:01:22 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235449#post235449 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235449#post235449 that would make sense and be good policy, but that isn't what they have proposed

how surprising :)

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:01:13 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235448#post235448 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235448#post235448 We dont have supermarkets here Sofie- and buying plants is an option – but growing it inside isnt...

Nemmind, life is good: about to cook half a home-grown (one of the cuzzies) butternut squash, with a good egg/breadcrumb & onion & sage & garlic stuffing – really delicious hot with home-made chicken gravy…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:43:31 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235447#post235447 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235447#post235447 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:35:47 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235446#post235446 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235446#post235446 But frozen mixed veges have long been a healthy, cheap staple for many families and should be included in any GST exemption.

Totally agreed on this point. Especially peas, corn kernels, carrots and green beans.
(I tend to buy the individual packs thereof...)

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:33:34 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235445#post235445 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235445#post235445 Hydroponically-grown lettuce doesnt have a season: I buy it with a cheerful heart here, because
a)it is relatively-locallygrown (about 40 k away) &
b) I *like* lettuce! Aside from cress, it's the only salad-green we can get year round...
Yeah, it'd be really great to grow your own but, in a…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:30:50 +1300 bmk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235444#post235444 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235444#post235444 If people would just get used to buying what is in season, it is not expensive
Does lettuce have a season? Because I have been loathe to buy that for a long-time now at $4 a lettuce. Not that you can buy frozen lettuce anyway. But frozen mixed veges have…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:15:28 +1300 bmk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235443#post235443 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235443#post235443 it would seem simple enough to make the criteria: no added ingredients. If the frozen stuff has no preservatives, etc, it would count.

Yeah that would make sense and be good policy, but that isn't what they have proposed.

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:13:07 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235442#post235442 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235442#post235442 And people on a low income can often barely afford fresh vegetable

If people would just get used to buying what is in season, it is not expensive. Plus there is plenty of food we grow all year so not that hard to find it. Ok, so watermelon in winter,…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:06:44 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235441#post235441 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235441#post235441 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:55:21 +1300 bmk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235440#post235440 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235440#post235440 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:53:07 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235439#post235439 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235439#post235439 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:46:09 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235436#post235436 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235436#post235436 magnum popping
and other calibrations...
You make my day. Often.
shucks, Simon, I'm happy to 'be a punk
to your Eastwood' any time...
;- )

and humble appreciations to Islander, too...
compared to whom
I am but an ossicle,
lost in midden-life,
base carbon data...

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 15:08:50 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235432#post235432 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235432#post235432 You could *try* and do that, but you'd receive a $4k tax bill, with penalties.

Anyone can try anything, it's succeeding that matters.

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:28:04 +1300 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235430#post235430 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235430#post235430 In the UK food has been exempt from VAT since its inception as have childrens clothing, , as far as I can recall. Even Take Away meals were exempt and we all know how lazy Poms are, they wouldn't do it if it was hard.

Of course the system could…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:14:13 +1300 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235428#post235428 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235428#post235428 'AMERICAN POET,' KEY, DENOUNCED AS RED SPY; Budapest Newspaper Exposes Him--He Played Expensive Jokes.

Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES. ();
May 29, 1930,


BUDAPEST, May 28.--"An American poet named John Key," said to be a millionaire, about whose eccentric behavior Yugoslav newspapers recently have published columns, was…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:04:17 +1300 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235424#post235424 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235424#post235424 This applies to god knows what. It WILL be a minefield. Are imported oranges? NZ Oranges? Whole Ginger or mashed and bottled ginger?

But once we make the decisions, it will be pretty simple to implement. And the decisions are not actually that challenging, because the lines are arbitrary, It…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:27:28 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235415#post235415 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235415#post235415 Screw the supermarkets. Grow your own

Imagine putting a large enough amount of public funding into programmes to help people and communities grow their own veges – already being done by some Councils, NGOs and schools. No ticket-clipping by large food retailers like the tax option; good news for garden…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 12:10:54 +1300 Ross Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235414#post235414 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235414#post235414 Sat, 05 Nov 2011 11:57:15 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235413#post235413 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235413#post235413 overview of NZ blogosphere includes Russell and Robyn (also contains Farrar and Slater, but without any unmoderated nastiness). ]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 11:47:34 +1300 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235412#post235412 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235412#post235412 It is entirely possible to take one sensible step without then immediately making subsequent stupid steps.

It would be nice if those arguing against the fruit and veg exemption actually stuck to the argument, but every discussion seems to be about things that are not actually being proposed.

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 11:02:23 +1300 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235406#post235406 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235406#post235406 Which is a hypothetical slippery slope argument based on the purity of the tax code. Against it we can put real quantifiable figures produced by real actual academics doing real actual studies.

FFS, Keir, since I don't have access to a Tardis I do need to talk in hypotheticals when…

]]> Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:04:36 +1300 Simon Grigg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235401#post235401 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235401#post235401 luv ya, word/senseplyer mate who is so often right on the mark/button/instance-

And you say that so much better than I possibly ever could. Thank you to the both of you for your words.

You make my day. Often.

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:54:07 +1300 James Millar https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235398#post235398 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235398#post235398 Plus National’s argument about the benefits of keeping the top income tax rate, the trust rate, and the company rate all equal is hard to argue with.

That was supposedly the argument for lowering the top marginal individual tax rate, but since the company tax rate is 30% (28% next…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:02:09 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235395#post235395 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235395#post235395 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 22:40:58 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235393#post235393 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235393#post235393 live long and prosper...
places like Shanghai where the average person
lives longer than New Zealand.

OMG! This is huge!
New Zealand is how old now?
European discovery / settlement – roughly a coupla hundred years
Maori – 800 years to a millennia..
and people in Shanghai live this long?…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 22:31:57 +1300 Simon Grigg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235392#post235392 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235392#post235392 Not to mention how sustainable it is to have a third of the population as aspirant city dwellers and the rest as dirt-poor peasants. Or the whole issue of how China gets enough resources to keep going.

Hasn't the percentage of city dwellers now passed the rural mass now? Or…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 21:54:06 +1300 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235389#post235389 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235389#post235389 Why stop at “fresh fruit and vegetables”? Seriously – can’t you make a similar public good case for zero-rating lean meat, milk, locally produced clothes and footwear (seriously, keeping kids clothed is a money pit), electricity etc.?

Which is a hypothetical slippery slope argument based on the purity of the…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 21:09:07 +1300 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235388#post235388 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235388#post235388 OK; want to try applying that point to the fruit & vege exception?

Say please, and try to make me believe it.

But the fresh fruit and veg exemption is pretty simple. It is worrying if it opens the floodgates to lots and lots of exemptions.

But why wouldn't it? Grey…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 21:03:49 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235386#post235386 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235386#post235386 hugely baroque systems of indirect taxation and seem to survive. Our system might give NZ lots of neo-liberal brownie points, but it's a lot harder to see how it's actually delivered any of the promised economic benefits. ]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:54:38 +1300 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235384#post235384 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235384#post235384 if it opens the floodgates to lots and lots of exemptions. ]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:39:33 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235382#post235382 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235382#post235382 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:32:30 +1300 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235381#post235381 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235381#post235381 The only argument against it is one based on the purity of a universal goods and services tax, which is all very nice but really, when you get down to it, fundamentally an aesthetic argument about clarity and tidiness.

Keir: I don't mean to be man-tronisisng but I assume you're…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:25:23 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235380#post235380 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235380#post235380 Got a timeline on that, Rich?

If I did, I'd get wealthy from it.

But how long can growth over 5% be sustained, especially when China makes pretty much all the consumer goods the developed world can use or afford and said developed world is getting poorer by the day?…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:15:53 +1300 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235379#post235379 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235379#post235379 not getting the tax any more. Yet it gets a great… ]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:34:06 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235377#post235377 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235377#post235377 I’m inclined to believe Goff on that detail at least.
If Australians can do it, how hard can it be to administer? :-P

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:15:27 +1300 Steve Parks https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235376#post235376 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235376#post235376 The only argument against it is one based on the purity of a universal goods and services tax, which is all very nice but really, when you get down to it, fundamentally an aesthetic argument about clarity and tidiness.

The argument against is stronger than you make it seem here.…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:11:19 +1300 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235374#post235374 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235374#post235374 I agree completely. GST-free fruit & veges is a populist gimmick.

Why? Why is it a gimmick? There are actual real studies done that look like they prove it is a good idea.

It is philosophically attractive (tax bads not goods where possible) and, given that GST hits low incomes hardest,…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:45:29 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235371#post235371 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235371#post235371 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:25:35 +1300 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235370#post235370 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235370#post235370 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:14:19 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235369#post235369 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235369#post235369 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:58:31 +1300 Graeme Edgeler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235367#post235367 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235367#post235367 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:48:46 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235365#post235365 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235365#post235365 Gordon Campbell says even business leaders ought to be alarmed by some of the shonky economics on display.

After all, it can make no economic sense to sell down the state’s stake in energy assets that stand to earn high dividends in perpetuity – and as the Greens argue, could…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:39:56 +1300 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235363#post235363 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235363#post235363 Well, we already have financial hub activity here. ]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:33:59 +1300 Simon Grigg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235362#post235362 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235362#post235362 But for every 100 bullish newspaper articles about China, you don't get that many doom/gloom tirades.

I'd argue that the opposite is the case. I've read countless well argued, figure backed op/eds in the likes of Bloomberg, The Wall Street Journal and the FT over the past ten years or…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:33:01 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235361#post235361 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235361#post235361 long term

and all the future innovation revenue potential in the Greens' plans for example.

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:27:07 +1300 Ross Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235357#post235357 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235357#post235357 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:17:50 +1300 Paul Williams https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235354#post235354 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235354#post235354 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:06:33 +1300 Brent Jackson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235353#post235353 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235353#post235353 The interesting comparison is revenue from dividends versus interest on additional borrowing.

I agree. It would be nice to see a succinct explanation of how much NZ stands to lose both immediately (consultants fees, etc), and long term (foregone dividends less govt debt interest for the same money), when National…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:57:34 +1300 Jim Cathcart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235352#post235352 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235352#post235352 Got a timeline on that, Rich?
It's just that people like Bloomberg, Fox and the US media have been warning us monthly that it's imminent since – ohhh – about 1996.
I have to go there now and then so I'd be keen on some insight as to when this…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:40:36 +1300 Peter Green https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235351#post235351 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235351#post235351 In saying that they would get back to surplus faster than National, Labour is ignoring the money that we would get from asset sales, but counting the revenue that we would get from those assets;

Surely you need to compare like with like: Debt is a liability, assets are ...…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:31:13 +1300 Jim Cathcart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235349#post235349 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235349#post235349 People do realize, I hope, that when China slumps, all the fiscal responsibility in the world isn't going to help a lot. We didn't escape the worst of the financial crisis through being clever, but because we've got a solid buyer for our commodities.

When that goes away, there'll be…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:23:17 +1300 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235347#post235347 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235347#post235347 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0l2WH_1I_I ]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:14:13 +1300 Simon Grigg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235343#post235343 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235343#post235343 When that goes away

Got a timeline on that, Rich?

It's just that people like Bloomberg, Fox and the US media have been warning us monthly that it's imminent since – ohhh – about 1996.

I have to go there now and then so I'd be keen on some insight…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:58:33 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235342#post235342 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235342#post235342 GST-free fruit & veges is a populist gimmick.

So? Why not have a feel good factor. Why not try and promote good diet for the families ignoring the importance of fruit and veg. Why not make us vegetarians feel good about a saving. Why not remember the Health system with all…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:46:23 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235339#post235339 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235339#post235339 People do realize, I hope, that when China slumps, all the fiscal responsibility in the world isn't going to help a lot. We didn't escape the worst of the financial crisis through being clever, but because we've got a solid buyer for our commodities.

When that goes away, there'll be…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:26:09 +1300 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235338#post235338 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235338#post235338 And corporate welfare has been glaringly absent – I suspect the Hobbit Wars, the Road Transport Forum, et al have managed to polished that turd as 'saving jobs'.

At least a start has been made on fisking a certain pork barrel motorway.

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:23:57 +1300 Brendon Steen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235337#post235337 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235337#post235337 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:18:57 +1300 Morgan Nichol https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235334#post235334 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235334#post235334 Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:12:26 +1300 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235333#post235333 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235333#post235333 It’s all very legitimate – if you care about accounting.

I do, but first I’d like someone to explain why I should share Phil and John’s touching faith in Treasury’s *cough* charmingly rose-tinted projections. Based on previous form, we might do better getting fiscal advice from Rod Petricevic.

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:08:43 +1300 Brendon Steen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235332#post235332 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235332#post235332 My feeling is that they're trying not to talk too much about the tax cuts because they're planning to balance them with their CGT and higher personal income tax rate. Both of which they're having trouble building a story around.

As for the CGT, they seem to be having a…

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:06:52 +1300 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235331#post235331 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-fiscal-responsibility-is-the-new/?p=235331#post235331 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:06:52 +1300