But they all have American flags outside their stores.

Yeah well, that's part of American culture we could skip. And it's not unique to recent immigrants over there as well.

There's a school of thought that the American style of integration has been a success compared to those of France…

God, sometimes I wonder if you have to be psychotic or a drug fiend to work in television news and current affairs.

God, sometimes I WISH you had to be a psychotic or a drug fiend to work in television news and current affairs!
At least the angles of the…

just thinking that maybe comments about racism dying out (with new generations being more tolerant,integrated etc) might be true in the big metropolis of Auckland but not in the provinces where you often hear comments from teenagers and think 'that came…

I asked them what they would tell other (kiwi) students if they could.
They said they would tell them "Just because we 'look' Asian does not mean we are all Chinese" and "just because we are…

And they're Gibberish Speakers (Mandarin Teachers) and Ninjas (Wushu coaches)!

And don't forget folks who know fifty ways to turn Rover and Fluffy into dim sum. God, sometimes I wonder if you have to be psychotic or a drug fiend to work in television news and current affairs.

the issues as I see it are
1. We were a prosperous nation when we had a small population and even poor kiwis could retire to a beachside town and live in a small batch like dwelling.
2.…

/tongue-in-cheek

(I tried to put that as neutrally as I could.)

Apologies. My rebuke was aimed at "those people" who suggested pandering to xenophobia or confronting xenophobia. Of course I see now that this is not your opinion, rather a sentiment of "some nameless people" whose views you chose to publish.

My working assumption is that xenophobia/racism is an irrational…

Perhaps a night class at AUT would interest you?

Or perhaps become a regular at the Newmarket Pool (although their "we no longer tolerate sexual harrassment" policy in the Sauna's has put a dampener on those "desparately dating asians").

The problem is that Auckland gets most of the long-haul flights, and hence, most of the immigrants

I think many of us are capable of managing the 5 minute walk to Domestic and getting a connecting flight. In my case my then girlfriend picked me up and drove me to…

Really. I thought they were one of the better ones?

May well be, but I've heard too many tales about people who've been treated like they're trying to smuggle bacon into Mecca not to wonder where the hell the NZIS are getting their staff from. And I'm talking about perfectly…

And my long-term bug-bear, the New Zealand Immigration Service .... I'm surprised that anyone wants to come here at all considering the stories I've heard from virtually every immigrant I know.

Really. I thought they were one of the better ones? My process of coming here was slow but reasonably…

There's a school of thought that the American style of integration has been a success compared to those of France or Britain. People retain a distinct ethnic identity — often down through generations — but also salute the flag.

I would disagree there. Firstly, people should be free to choose…

I worry that people lecturing others about what they should or should…

People retain a distinct ethnic identity — often down through generations — but also salute the flag.

It's interesting how one level of identification can counter some negative consequences of another level of identification.

One way of looking at nationalism is that it was a way of bringing together people…

Rather, we were late to the party, only adopting the current points system framework in the late 1980s.

And if we want to have a real 'debate' about immigration policy, how's this for starters:

1) Aren't we just deluding ourselves that we can just import our skilled workforce — health,…

Yes, AS, but can I insist once more on a fundamental rule of engagement (courtesy of Tom Stoppard): Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Nobody is entitled to their own facts.

I think that sounds more than fair. My only concern, however, is that having spent many years watching…

And suddenly I is all in favour of mass Asian migration, especially the girls

Were they under 18?

I have just got home from a long and ethnically diverse night at Tanuki's cave... And suddenly I is all in favour of mass Asian migration, especially the girls...

I second that, having dined at Tanuki's with a motley crew while I was up in AKL for the…

I/S: If we want to shift immigration away from Auckland, then we need to shift economic opportunity. And that's a rather more difficult proposition.

Very good point. The problem is that Auckland gets most of the long-haul flights,…

Errr gotta go...

k thnx

Bye.

:D

I don't think the claim that 5-10% of NZers have some sort of racism is out of line. I know several... in fact, I think if I explored the issue with a bunch of people, I could probably get to double figures out of a couple of hundred acquaintances.

Or…

But the fact is that Peter Brown is a Member of Parliament. He serves on a select committee, and could have a real influence over the running of this country. And he is the Associate-Spokesman for Immigration for his party, for crying out loud.

It is inexcusable that he --…

David,

To clarify: suggestion that anti-immigrant sentiment being tapped by Mr Brown is generated by an innate racism of a substantial number of New Zealanders is one of them "massive and unsubstantiated generalizations about groups of people" that should not be made.

Now I require clarification, Angus.…

To clarify: suggestion that anti-immigrant sentiment being tapped by Mr Brown is generated by an innate racism of a substantial number of New Zealanders is one of them "massive and unsubstantiated generalizations about groups of people" that should not be made.

I don't think the claim that 5-10% of NZers…

I pictured what this hug might look like and it reminded me of my dear old dad.

My dad is a NZ First supporter; he thinks Winston is great. He's 80…

To clarify: suggestion that anti-immigrant sentiment being tapped by Mr Brown is generated by an innate racism of a substantial number of New Zealanders is one of them "massive and unsubstantiated generalizations about groups of people" that should not be made.

One woman came to his aid. In hindsight, I wish I had done the same. Eventually, he was led to safety inside the Law School. The man guarding the door asked the people chasing Olsen to back off. One replied: "But he's a fascist!"

For some reason in my mind…

One woman came to his aid. In hindsight, I wish I had done the same. Eventually, he was led to safety inside the Law School. The man guarding the door asked…

To clarify: I certainly didn't intend to imply that you were making anything up — apologies if it came across that way.

Rather I was emphasizing that having a debate about immigration wasn't the basis of my objection to Peter Brown — it was his devious claims and manipulation…

But let's not just make up shit in the manner of Mr Brown...

Kieth Ng says he wants to give Mr Brown a hug...

Kieth writes there is a "genuine alienation" reflected in the anti-immigrant sentiment, I agree but think both cause and possible solutions are different.

Kieth refers respectfully…

New York benefits greatly from having a Little Italy and a Chinatown etc. Is not being completely integrated always so bad?

Well, it is when poor integration in Little Italy and Irish communities fed into the importation and development of the Mafia in the case of Little Italy, and gave…

There's a school of thought that the American style of integration has been a success compared to those of France or Britain. People retain a distinct ethnic identity — often down through generations — but also salute the flag.

Plus I believe in the States you forfeit your original passport…

Having said that, I think that economic fear makes those other sources…

Fair enough to talk about immigrant numbers (even including the number zero).

I hope not. Zero would preclude immigration on the basis of family/partnership, and deny the right to family life involving those with passports from places other than NZ and, presumably, Oz.

I secretly suspect the mustachioed Mr Brown…

RE: Russell Brown shaving off his beard so as to be more presentable on the telly.

Russell, have you thought of going to a tidy moustache like the other Mr [Peter] Brown? I understand the ladies go wild for a…

The comment that caught my ear from Brown was the speculation that most of the Asians coming into New Zealand won't speak English. The reality is that as of 2 years ago, the English language requirements for immigration to New Zealand are of a sufficiently high standard…

you are accepting the legitmacy of their interest, and turning it into an empirical debate rather than a moral one

No. He isn't. What he's doing is listening to what they say and then telling them why it is, objectively, wrong: you can get into the moral and ethical issues…

But they all have American flags outside their stores.

Yeah well, that's part of American culture we could skip. And it's not unique to recent immigrants over there as well.

There's a school of thought that the American style of integration has been a success compared to those of France…

If Brown was right and ethnic diversity was causing serious social conflict…

New York benefits greatly from having a Little Italy and a Chinatown etc. Is not being completely integrated always so bad?

Well, it is when poor integration in Little Italy and Irish communities fed into the importation and development of the Mafia in the case of Little Italy, and gave…

But for some, skin colour (or to be precise, language and cultural practices) does matter.

Big deal. The fact that they care about it doesn't mean their interest is acceptable or legitimate. We don't "acknowledge" and accept the legitimacy of Ian Wishart's panty-sniffing obsession with what other people do with…

How? We have a right to freedom of movement in this country ...the government can't tell you where to live and stop you from moving elsewhere.

What I think happens at the moment is that there is a regional shortage list and if you have a job offer as a…

Angus Robertson wrote:

The losers of the immigration equation…

Any criticism of immigration is deflected with attacks on the character of the critic

No, any criticism that targets the ethnicity of the immigrants is.

A debate about numbers and economics is legitimate. Anti-immigration rhetoric rarely aims that high.

Feeling proud of and grateful to a nation that has genuinely accepted you into it... not so bad, surely?

Oh I don't think it's bad, and if it's what people want to do, up to them.

But I've always thought that if people spent more time making America 'great' (again?),…

I also like that cultural diversity, but go over to NZConservative and you'll find that examples of negative cultural diversity take precedence. No one knows us from "Zentiger" and most people do not want to say something that'll set off an argument.

How do you define merit ? I'm sure Brown would include metrics around how closely the applicant's originating culture matches our own. This would, of course, favour Europeans.

And which might explain why the English, French and Germans have historically had such an untroubled relationship over the centuries. I'd also…

But for some, skin colour (or to be precise, language and cultural practices) does matter. It's a truth that needs to be acknowledged.

Sure – just as I acknowledge there are some damn weird people out there who have an unhealthy interest in what I do with my penis, in…

The economic beneficiaries of immigration are the immigrants, those who own property and high wage earners. The government also gets a nett GDP growth it can boast about and…

Yeah well, that's part of American culture we could skip.

Whether it needs to be skipped or not depends on what's actually happening...

Feeling obliged to express solidarity and show you are not a terrorist.... bad.

Feeling proud of and grateful to a nation that has genuinely accepted you into…

...in my mind the "real grievances" are only real in the sense that they are genuinely felt. Otherwise, they seem to me to be proxies for economic anxiety.

I agree. Although there is the in-group/out-group dynamic going on which humans are just so good at.

But they all have American flags outside their stores.

Yeah well, that's part of American culture we could skip. And it's not unique to recent immigrants over there as well.

People mostly like being around people like them, it seems.

How do you define merit ?

Educational attainment. Whether their skills match an identified area of shortage or whether they already have a job offer. Whether they're shacked up with a kiwi they met overseas (something that our immigration system has got a lot tougher on, but which ought to…

But they all have American flags outside their stores.

But for some, skin colour (or to be precise, language and cultural practices) does matter. It's a truth that needs to be acknowledged. And you don't change their minds by banishing them from the debate, you change their minds by showing them what an inclusive society is genuinely about.

Or…

The only metrics we should be looking at to decide among those who want to live here are merit and need

How do you define merit ? I'm sure Brown would include metrics around how closely the applicant's originating culture matches our own. This would, of course, favour Europeans.

We…

Skin colour does not matter, and it is no more a fit subject for debate than the average religion or political affiliation of potential immigrants. These things are properly the domain of the individual, not of society as a whole.

But for some, skin colour (or to be precise, language…

Tom, you raise an interesting issue about the lack of debate about immigration but to a certain extent…

You're it masking behind

Obviously, that should be the other way round.

(Sorry; still on my first coffee)

"As well as a diversification of migrant sources, the identities of the population within New…

It isn’t inherently racist to have the serious debate now we should have had 15 years ago about what sort of demographic makeup and what sort of country we want

Yes, it is. You're it masking behind the polite phrase "demographic makeup", but what you're actually wanting to talk about…

I was wondering the other day whether people still feinted at Obama 'rallies.'

Unless you're aware of a riot nobody else has heard of, I think you mean 'fainted'. I guess it might happen when people give enough of a shit that they're willing to stand in a crowded hall…

... and another who did make that effort, but did not succeed, because part of being really poor is being more vulnerable to serious random life events than people who are not poor.

My mum is from the East End of London, which is one of those underprivileged "white" communities they talk…

But I've had this conversation a bunch of times especially with older or more working class NZers – talking up our cultural diversity, pointing out that it was one of the reasons we moved back – and I hear hesitation in their voices – things have changed and…

Was it now such a mundane occurrence that it was no longer thought newsworthy by the national press corp? Or, had this rarest of rare political phenomena finally pettered out, washing up on the shore of Obama's…

It isn’t inherently racist to have the serious debate now we should have had 15 years ago about what sort of demographic makeup and what sort of country we want as a result of immigration BEFORE any sort of racist anti-immigration party gets 20 seats...

Some in the British Labour…

And yet I think it's ok to be a little bit cross with Peter Brown. Who's doing more to foment division, friction, resentment than Brown himself?

Nice one, dude. I like it when you blog about your feelings.

And yet, he is a Vulcan. Fascinating.

If only Bharat Jamnadas hadn't been human-barricading me at the steps of Parliament, making me repeat the same quote over and over and signing those endless release forms for Asia Downunder...…

One of the main reasons we felt we could do that was because we felt that NZ…

Christ, ye olde 2004 march. I would have human-shielded Cale, hell, all of them once the violence started, on principle. But I have an uncanny ability to never be in the hotspot at the right time – unlike…