Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Budget 2011: Now with 70% less wordiness! https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214064#post214064 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214064#post214064 it’s a bad idea mostly centred around the cost in administration of such a one time levy

Yeah, nah, not buying that one. Yes it'll cost to administer, but it'll still raise a hell of a lot more money than it costs.

]]> Tue, 24 May 2011 09:48:08 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214062#post214062 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214062#post214062 Well exactly, it’s one bit of revenue which they couldn’t get away with turning into a top-end tax cut. I hope.

I suspect their objection is more grounded in the fact that the Greens dared to suggest that such a levy could be rated progressively. And I have to say,…

]]> Tue, 24 May 2011 09:41:09 +1200 James Butler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214060#post214060 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214060#post214060 The cynical side of me suspects that’s the real reason the government don’t like such a levy because it only leads to more direct levies/taxes which ultimately take control away from the powerbrokers

Well exactly, it's one bit of revenue which they couldn't get away with turning into a top-end…

]]> Tue, 24 May 2011 09:37:32 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214059#post214059 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214059#post214059 absolute refusal to impose a levy

Yeah I've seen various discussions of why it's a bad idea mostly centred around the cost in administration of such a one time levy.

But to me the value of it is that it emphasizes the direct nature of how we give our money…

]]> Tue, 24 May 2011 09:31:23 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214056#post214056 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214056#post214056 heck I’m not certain wtf they did with the money but it’s gone.

Some of it hasn't been spent. It's just sitting there, accumulating servicing costs. English said as much a couple of weeks ago, when he said that some of the borrowing recently has been far in excess of…

]]> Tue, 24 May 2011 09:20:07 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214045#post214045 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214045#post214045 pre-loading debt

Worth noting debt in itself isn't bad. It's just that the use National made of that debt was ... well .. useless. Instead of using the debt to stimulate the economy they ... heck I'm not certain wtf they did with the money but it's gone.

The Spanish…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 18:00:00 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214038#post214038 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214038#post214038 I believe it is still used for bailing out broken banks and financiers.

touche

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 16:55:34 +1200 bmk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214037#post214037 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214037#post214037 So long as the other major party in Parliament fails to come up with coherent and recognisably different policies from National’s, it makes perfect sense for people to choose the leader who projects a more competent image

Yes. That's why when they say this I just keep quiet.

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 16:52:01 +1200 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214036#post214036 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214036#post214036 National have fucked the economy in a craptacular fashion. Economic incompetence on a grand scale.
Totally agree, and also with your last paragraph.

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 16:41:58 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214035#post214035 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214035#post214035 yes, the Tories are right that we need to cut spending

Depends where one cuts the spending. Cutting spending on Roads of Dubious Significance in order to spend money on social policies is objectionable to you? You'd rather than the RODS and the social policies were funded?

National have fucked…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 16:32:27 +1200 Greg Dawson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214029#post214029 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214029#post214029 We don’t even seem to learn that way.

Well exactly. We've done this before, but it seems to be mostly forgotten what happened. The intervening boom has removed all memory of a time when things were not-so-great.

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 14:46:23 +1200 81stcolumn https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214026#post214026 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214026#post214026

I'm not expecting socialism any time soon

I believe it is still used for bailing out broken banks and financiers.

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 14:39:22 +1200 James Butler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214020#post214020 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214020#post214020 What I find sad is that in NZ we never seem willing to believe that what is found to be true in other countries – we have to learn it for ourselves :(.

We don't even seem to learn that way.

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 13:31:51 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214019#post214019 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214019#post214019 Yup, dogma says, in a recession government spending should increase, decreasing spending causes an even bigger drop in taxes which leaves everone in the poo.

Dublin's policy of ferocious cuts to public services, pay and welfare were the model to be emulated

What I find sad is that in NZ…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 13:27:36 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214015#post214015 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214015#post214015 There are about a thousand discrete steps

Thank goodness for MMP

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 11:06:25 +1200 Ian MacKay https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214014#post214014 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214014#post214014 Indeed it is. But it’s been deliberately misrepresented as public debt – hence the ‘strategic deficit’. Hardly any bullshit has been called on the issue, and I suspect it’s the case because the banks (mostly run from Oz) have too much to lose.
Andrew R supplied me these figures. Not…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 10:59:45 +1200 Greg Dawson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214013#post214013 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214013#post214013 Interesting article in the guardian on the results of slashing public spending in a recession (recently, as opposed to the all the earlier evidence).

Currently I'm petrified of a repeat of the early 90s, but I can't see how we're going to dodge that bullet given the performance on both…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 10:53:40 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214012#post214012 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214012#post214012 But my question is this: isn't it private debt that NZ ought to be worried about? as I understand it private offshore debt has been the concern of the ratings agencies, and our government debt is not very alarming in an international context.

Indeed it is. But it's been deliberately…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 10:50:19 +1200 giovanni tiso https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214011#post214011 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214011#post214011 I'm not expecting socialism any time soon

There are about a thousand discrete steps between "yes, the Tories are right that we need to cut spending, but here are some tax credits for R&D" and "socialism".

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 10:46:20 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214008#post214008 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214008#post214008 Mon, 23 May 2011 10:03:01 +1200 giovanni tiso https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214007#post214007 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214007#post214007 Mon, 23 May 2011 09:57:06 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214006#post214006 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214006#post214006 So long as the other major party in Parliament fails to come up with coherent and recognisably different policies from National's

That seems to be changing, at last – posted on t'other Budget thread.

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 09:54:38 +1200 Ana Simkiss https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214004#post214004 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=214004#post214004 Private savings are offset by government borrowings, yes I grok that. What you're saying is that we are robbing Peter to pay...Peter (Peter being the better off who get cuts to their taxes while paying more tax on Kiwisaver).

But my question is this: isn't it private debt that NZ…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 09:46:23 +1200 giovanni tiso https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213998#post213998 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213998#post213998 When I talk to the average person about politics they can kind of agree that National haven't enacted good policies but then they usually finish it with '... but John Key seems like a good bloke so I'm going to vote for them again.'

So long as the other major…

]]> Mon, 23 May 2011 08:28:55 +1200 Robert Urquhart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213991#post213991 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213991#post213991 interview today. ]]> Sun, 22 May 2011 21:35:23 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213985#post213985 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213985#post213985 The $2.6b cut to KiwiSaver subsidies is real. Whatever the growth rate turns out to be, this savings will still exist

"Reduced expenditure" != "savings"

Go and sit on the naughty step for that one.

]]> Sun, 22 May 2011 19:36:44 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213983#post213983 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213983#post213983 increasingly a need will grow for Key to be more specific. Can't fudge questions forever

He only wants to fudge them till November 26...

]]> Sun, 22 May 2011 19:33:49 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213949#post213949 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213949#post213949 When I talk to the average person about politics they can kind of agree that National haven’t enacted good policies but then they usually finish it with ‘… but John Key seems like a good bloke so I’m going to vote for them again.’

I concur. The media is what…

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 22:45:14 +1200 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213941#post213941 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213941#post213941 government’s balance sheet, anyway – which may be too limited a way of looking at it, eh. ]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 18:24:53 +1200 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213939#post213939 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213939#post213939 Plu-leaze. This $1.2 billion saving exists only if the budget projections re growth, tax increase etc are accurate. Simply they aren't and it won't.

The $2.6b cut to KiwiSaver subsidies is real. Whatever the growth rate turns out to be, this savings will still exist.

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 17:53:48 +1200 Keith Ng https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213938#post213938 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213938#post213938 But...isn't there a good thing we will not get, ie more private savings for retirement, and less private debt? Help me understand Keith

Kinda, but not really. That private savings will be offset by public debt (i.e. Government borrowing money). More importantly, they'll go disproportionately to high-income earners.

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 17:50:34 +1200 Gareth Ward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213937#post213937 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213937#post213937 This $1.2b isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's coming out of money the government was pumping into private KiwiSaver accounts.
They needed an extra $1.2b in funding (I'd argue they needed more but OK), and got most of it by raising taxes (through reversing tax credits) on private…

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 16:33:05 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213922#post213922 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213922#post213922 I think most people aren't properly informed

I agree. Informed enough in political terms means both media and opposition doing their jobs so that voters don't need to wade through all the policy detail or gameplaying to form an impression of who/what to vote for.

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 14:13:59 +1200 bmk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213920#post213920 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213920#post213920 I don't. Probably because I think most people aren't properly informed and aren't that interested in becoming properly informed.
When I talk to the average person about politics they can kind of agree that National haven't enacted good policies but then they usually finish it with '... but John Key…

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 13:45:32 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213919#post213919 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213919#post213919 Sat, 21 May 2011 13:42:30 +1200 Ian MacKay https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213917#post213917 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213917#post213917 Sat, 21 May 2011 13:27:29 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213916#post213916 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213916#post213916 the revenue lost because of top end income earner tax cuts is more than $1.2 billion per year anyway

They pulled the same trick last year of adding a (fudged) projection of growth to claim that their tax package was 'neutral'. Media dolts largely swallowed the kool aid.

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 13:23:54 +1200 Andrew R2 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213914#post213914 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213914#post213914 Plu-leaze. This $1.2 billion saving exists only if the budget projections re growth, tax increase etc are accurate. Simply they aren't and it won't.

(And the revenue lost because of top end income earner tax cuts is more than $1.2 billion per year anyway.)

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 12:41:31 +1200 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213907#post213907 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213907#post213907 Sat, 21 May 2011 11:06:06 +1200 Greville Whittle https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213905#post213905 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213905#post213905 But...isn't there a good thing we will not get, ie more private savings for retirement, and less private debt? Help me understand Keith!

I'm not sure what you mean here. If by private savings you mean Kiwisaver, then no there probably will not be more money going in.

A number…

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 10:53:29 +1200 Ian MacKay https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213900#post213900 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213900#post213900 Anyway there are strong rumours that this Budget was written/masterminded by Steven Joyce, the Rumsfield lurking in the National ranks. They are laughing at the people. Unwise strategy.
It does leave a gap for Labour Greens to enunciate a fresh direction and increasingly a need will grow for Key to…

]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 10:14:55 +1200 Paul Campbell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213894#post213894 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213894#post213894 'and' 'when'->'went' ]]> Fri, 20 May 2011 22:24:06 +1200 Ana Simkiss https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213874#post213874 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213874#post213874 Fri, 20 May 2011 20:04:29 +1200 3410 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213809#post213809 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213809#post213809 Realised that I was kinda droning on yesterday.

Nah. We appreciate it and try to keep up.

]]> Fri, 20 May 2011 15:30:42 +1200 George Darroch https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213805#post213805 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213805#post213805 Word.

Briefly: super untouched, RoNS roll on, military unmolested.

]]> Fri, 20 May 2011 15:15:28 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213804#post213804 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-budget-2011-now-with-70-less-wordiness/?p=213804#post213804 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Fri, 20 May 2011 15:15:28 +1200