So I'd just make the points that (a) its extraordinary how such discussions are dominated by both history and the Treaty, and…

Kyle but that's the joy of Common Law & with the existing precident it has started to impact on NZ – watch this space.

Well of course. But that doesn't make it in any way constitutional. I'd struggle to believe that constitutions can be written by judges in the modern world.…

Heh,Imagine if one had a reasonable force provision in Section 59…

So you agree the Treaty is a Constitutional Document & (in some capacity) has been enforce by NZ courts?

No that's specifically what I'm not agreeing to. The 'principles of the treaty as defined by a court in 1987', and the 'the treaty/ies' are not the same thing.

If the treaty…

Keith you wrote:

Maori Party gets all 7 Maori…

So you agree the Treaty is a Constitutional Document & (in some capacity) has been enforce by NZ courts?

"The Treaty itself doesn't fulfil any of the requirements for being some sort of constitution that I'm aware of."
& then
"While some of the rights and responsibilities listed in the treaty are of a constitutional nature," = Snookered :P

My point is, I could write a constitutional document on the…

Kyle I'm pointing to the Judge made law that includes the TOW & so makes Common Law.

"The Treaty itself doesn't fulfil any of the requirements for being some sort of constitution that…

The Treaty itself doesn't fulfil any of the requirements for being some sort of constitution that I'm aware of. It doesn't…

The kindness & good will of benevolent Govts?

Once legislation is ruled upon in Court to abide by the TOW (priciples or word) as done by Judge Skelton it becomes Common Law and the TOW was…

Either way, it certainly doesn't mean that all rights in NZ come from the Treaty. They come from parliament…

With references to the TOW in various acts and those acts having been ruled upon in favour of including the TOW provisions Judge Skelton…

Insofar as all rights in New Zealand come from the Treaty (not because it says what they are, but because it allows them),

I don't believe that's true. The treaty isn't a constitutional document, and hasn't been embedded in any such legislation in NZ. Rights in NZ come from laws…

There are NZ fisheries that weren't exploitable in 1840 because of lack of technology. Broadcast spectrum arguably goes with the land one is…

@kyle. i think we're talking in circles. but, because this is making me exercise parts of the brain i thought were dormant, here we go...

It's revenge for all those blog posts you did. As soon as you started talking about 'metics' my brain always started to hurt.

Your four…

1. English enjoys a massive subsidy from the government – road signs, official communications, letters from government departments, learn to read books in schools, language used all the time by pollies, laws, everything…

@kyle. i think we're talking in circles. but, because this is making me exercise parts of the brain i thought were dormant, here we go...

the language and airwaves one is difficult. i didn't agree with it…

so maori have rights to "their fisheries", "their forests". this doesn't take anything from you, it just recognises that they have.

Yes good point. But the treaty has been used to argue for things that Maori never had – airwaves for example. The particularly broad term 'taonga'.

I still think…

Paul under international law there is not an issue of translation. The Maori version is superior due to the fact it is in the language…

If that isn't given to them by article 3, and isn't a right of any non-Maori subject of the crown, then surely it must be 'more'?

yeah, i'm still not sure about "more".

if someone owns property, they have a right to unmolested enjoyment of that property. you could say…

wot Gareth said, above

Gulp, thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I did jump to a conclusion. But I did pickup on some of the smaller 0.35% shareholdings being for effectively the same companies, which (I hope) validates the second part of my comment:

I'm leaning towards Key's idea that…

yeh my understanding is that the TRANSLATION DIFFERENCES between Maori and English were a crucial part of the problem. And under international law the valid version of the treaty is the one in the Native language.

however, as…

HThe Top 20 investors own 71% of AIA and of those 20 the Govt and 2 councils own 53% with the other 17 (of the Top 20) owning 18%

The Govt? Sorry, where did you calculate that from? The New Zealand Central Securities Depository is not the Govt, if that's…

i'm pretty sure than a offer and guarantee of enjoyment of the rights you already enjoy, and also the rights guaranteed as a subject of the crown doesn't mean "more rights than the current subjects of the crown".

I personally wouldn't claim to be sure. But if we have as…

as an example. i have dual new zealand and australian citizenship. this means i can enjoy the rights of both jurisdictions. but if you don't have australian citizenship it doesn't mean you're worse off than me.

Well no, it would make me way better off, as no one could point…

article one = "one sovereign". check.
article two = "maori take care of their own". check.
article three = "equal rights under the sovereign" . check.

I think your 3 is a little misleading their Che. Equal rights implies that everyone has the same rights – no more, no less.…

Why does Infratil not seem interested in AIA?

Here's who owns AIA. hmmm

The Top 20 investors own 71% of AIA and of those 20 the Govt and 2 councils own 53% with the other 17 (of the Top 20) owning 18%. So I'd woulda thought there was a fat chance…

maori don't. so... political theorists aren't sure how to manage it... that said, and potential gerrymander aside, the maori seats are a start and a bit of a case-study in self-determination in comprehensively intermixed national populations.

Do you think they're a case study in self-determination Che? I think they're interesting,…

I can get through Heathrow just as quick as AIA, not sure what everyone is complaining about. It takes a…

re: sovereignty. it is possible. the main hurdle is mainstream fear that maori self-determination is a step towards "separatism".

when you explain that in practice it takes the form of radical…

If NZ ever had a golden…

Regarding Auckland Airport and its imminent closedown by the Canuck invaders, it's a real problem having all these foreign owned businesses that could shut down at any stage:

We could be left with no banks, newspapers or telephones and be forced…

Rich of Observationz
From: Kelburn, Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
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Posted at 7:12PM on 5 Mar 08. Report. Permalink.

Anyway, why doesn't the Government just bite the bullet and nationalise the airports, ports and rail network and tell…

It took until 1918 for the European military to work out how to overcome entrenched positions (with battle lines…

More appropriately, the South African constitution provides a role for traditional leaders and customary law.

Plus communities overseas often have a lot more devolved power than in NZ. We could maybe follow some…

We have Disrict Councils with responsibility for land use & Regional Councils with responsbility for Air & Water.

Maybe a similar structure can be created where self-determination, becomes part of this in parralell to Central Govt, operating as an overlay of geography as the Maori seats currnetly do?

sovereignty is a tricky one, mostly based on definition.

i think there's a strong argument that what the…

You're a bit too harsh on Cameron. 8 hrs artillary bombardment prior to any attack is pleanty of softening up. That Rawiri Puhirake had dug cover from…

We could be left with no banks, newspapers or telephones and be forced to line up for hours at the remaining New…

s/against foreign/against foreign investment

why hasn't anyone looked at how Heathrow, Gatwick and most of the other UK airports managed by BAA are owned by a Spanish company – and how this 'foreign takeover' is a non issue.

Have you used Heathrow over tha last 15 years? It is shit. Pathetic, awful.

BAA under…

But I was commenting on the other side's inability to learn when it happened again, and again, and again. They couldn't see that Maori…

gate pa being the example par excellence. cameron was, without doubt, an idiot.

Kyle that is not fair. Guerilla wars are never won without total saturation of troops.

Gotta give credit where it is due rather than blame Colonial forces for falling into traps.

I'm not clear on what you're saying here. Who needs credit?

Kyle that is not fair. Guerilla wars are never won without total saturation of troops.

Gotta give credit where it is due rather than blame Colonial forces for falling into traps.

Kyle I agree and for that matter so does the Treaty of Waitangi.

"The participants in the Wars were still fighting for independent control of their regions..."

Which was (and is) their legal entitlement.

The Maori…

The Land Wars were seldom simply a "maori v pakeha" affair: intertribal alliances and greivances had a major role, and there were, at times, more maori fighting for the (pakeha) government than against it.

Yes. But British and Colonial commanders were in charge, hence some of the shocking ambushes that…

The establishment of Māori seats came about in 1867 with the Māori Representation Act, drafted by Napier Member of Parliament (MP) Donald McLean... In the end the setting up of Māori seats separate from existing seats…

we might need to distinguish between the land wars and the creation of the seats.

the land wars were a direct response by the settlers to the formation of the king movement. kingites wouldn't sell land, the settlers were "a bit annoyed" by this,…

there is no "hard-fought" political rights about it.

You don't think the land wars involved fighting?

I'm sure they involved fighting, but Maori weren't fighting for political rights – at least not representative ones. They were fighting to protect their land.

I suspect a better description of the process might…

the only rights maori had in the aftermath of the land wars were those extended to other citizens. and these were precarious at the best of times.

the maori seats were seat up in the aftermath of the land wars, as a sop to kupapa maori.

Which sounds very much to me like the sop was a reaction to the wars.

you might remember a thing called raupatu.

i might also draw your attention to the 1967 Maori Affairs Amendment Act.

Don't you just love how thoroughly disobliging Maori are?

heh. absolutely.

i demonstrated in my thesis that maori "representative groups" (and aboriginal people) had a clearly identifiable and consistent set of demands of colonial governments from the time respective settlement/invasion onwards.

it wasn't until the majority liberalised in the 1960s/70s…

there is no "hard-fought" political rights about it.

You don't think the land wars involved fighting?

Um, Ben, I'm sure there were plenty of Maori who weren't down with all this women's suffrage nonsense but I don't feel much regret that they were 'forced' to accept it.

I would feel…

Sometimes it's just the least worst option. I think NZ would be in a far worse situation now without the Maori seats – I'm sure we would have had an armed seperatist movement.

Neil: I know that's not the place you're coming from, but if the spectre of race war…

another interesting factiod is that maori were denied secret ballot until 1938...

and reading keith's comments further, the "few and dispersed" bit is also outright wrong.

and i agree with neil. the situation for maori without the maori seats would be far worse, taking…

can a party that's unable to get 1/3 of Maori votes really claim to represent Maori?

as much as any party can argue to represent all of their desired constituents.

The Maori seats were conceived to give Maori representation in Parliament at a time when there was no way they…

The media analysis of this has been poor – why hasn't anyone looked at how Heathrow, Gatwick and most of the other UK airports managed…

They are deeply undemocratic, and should go. And I don't accept that only Maori have a right to decide on them.

In a sense they are undemocratic but democracy should have a degree of fudge about it – real life with all its various conflicts can be too complex to…

The first House of Representatives established under the Constitution Act 1852 consisted of 37 members. There were increases until 1881 when the number became 95. After a reduction to…

Fair question, I'll go check because I don't think that was the case but am quite happy to prove myself wrong. :)

No, Keith. The Maori seats were introduced at a time when there was a property qualification to vote. It's one of life's delicious ironies that Maori men had universal suffrage about twenty years before their honky brethren. (The wahine, like their pakeha sisters, had to wait a little longer.)

Craig,…

But they do provide needed representation for Maori and Maori issues.…

Anyway, why doesn't the Government just bite the bullet and nationalise the airports, ports and rail network and tell us what social services are going to be cut to pay for it all? :)

What's this 'pay' white man? That sounds like buying, nationalising is when the government informs you…

I would personally prefer it if Maori could set aside their claim to specialness for their own sakes, but I do not think it is right or just to force them to do so.

Um, Ben, I'm sure there were plenty of Maori who weren't down with all this women's…

No, I'm picking about three weeks later...

Just enough time to organise a wake in the best traditions of good bad taste. You bring the Broil King, and I'll supply enough alcohol that you can witness my Humpty Dance of Ecstasy without your eyes melting.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Maori Party holding the balance of power might lead to a grand coalition?*

No, see my comments earlier in the thread.

They are deeply undemocratic, and should go. And I don't accept that only Maori have a right to decide on…

Viktor Yushchenko, anyone?

Oh, I don't think the Liarbore Dykeocracy is that evil. Character assassination, sure. The politics of fear applied three times a day with a sledgehammer. Whatever works. Your intelligence and sense of human dignity given a good going over. Simple objective reality told to go screw itself.…

With a little luck, the day Key becomes Prime Minister the usual suspects are going to Mama Cass on their own bile.

No, I'm picking about three weeks later when it dawns on them that the elected government government is a perfectly conventional one, and thus unable to deliver them…

Am I the only one who thinks that the Maori Party holding the balance of power might lead to a grand coalition?*

Nope — because I don't think National is going to be running a feral campaign in the Maori seats. Labour will, if Shane Jones' latest vapourings are a…

The only downside is that we're going to have to endure a particularly toxic election campaign first.

Viktor Yushchenko, anyone?

We won't have to wait long for wingnutosphere implosions anyway. Their lack of positive affirmation for Key is noticeable already.

And that's a bad thing, how? Frankly, I'd be more worried if Key was getting his tummy rubbed by the left or right wingnuts out there. With a little luck,…

Something that would be great if for no other reason than the enjoyment available from I watching the implosions it caused in the wingnutosphere

We won't have to wait long for wingnutosphere implosions anyway. Their lack of positive affirmation for Key is noticeable already.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Maori Party holding the balance of power might lead to a grand coalition?*

___
*Something…

Anyway, why doesn't the Government just bite the bullet and nationalise the airports, ports and rail network and tell us what social services are going to be cut to pay for it all? :)

The airports and ports *make* money. The rail network is in public ownership apart from the…

Thereafter, there will be a stream of smaller losses as AIA earnings leave the country, which ultimately will be equal to or greater than the original sum paid. (Otherwise those…

I though Mark Weldon had a pretty good take on it on Morning Report today: as a policy move, it's very much in line with international trends, but the manner and timing of it are more ... unusual.

What's unusual about it, pimping xenophobia and junk economics for poll points…

Please – read the stuff I wrote in 2005. Here and here.

Not all overhangs are equal, nor all tactical voting. Yes – it's very smart for Maori Party supporters on the Maori roll to tactical vote and gain 7 seats *and* pump another 3% of party vote…

AIA:

1) Local investors, especially large, local, listed investors, are more easy to persuade, cajole or coerce, simply because they have many other business interests here. Political and public pressure would actually have some influence.

2) The benefit…

As to why the fuss: good question. I suspect the loss of a large income stream overseas does figure in the Government's thinking though.

Certainly if the Canadians want to pay such a high price, it makes you wonder what they see…

SO no one can build another airport anywhere ever again? No land anywhere that couldn't be suitable, no other airports that could be expanded ever...?

I'd like to see the Whenuapai airport built, but here's huge resistance to it.

But even if it was, it wouldn't be a replacement as…

If they were buying more shares in a capital raising, and AIA was going…

More likely would be that an exploitative owner let…

SO no one can build another airport anywhere ever again? No land anywhere that couldn't be suitable, no other airports that could be expanded ever...?

Stephen

if the Canadians are offering 30% more than the market rates the AIA shares it may be that they see the opportunity to…

And hence Hickey is flat out wrong about this case.

Yes, he often goes into excruciating detail which only serves to cover some of this "wrongness". Bernard Hickey's absolute and real strength is in analysing stuff from a business perspective, however, it is a micro rather than macro analysis. I…

But it's dishonest of the Herald to be wringing its hands over the loss of benefits which don't actually exist.

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow the lost benefits they have alluded to?
We also have to remember that NZ companies require capital to grow; that capital is not available…

But the context was the benefits of overseas investment to New Zealand, and an investment that does nothing but hoover up our profits and repatriate them to…

Lots of assets are hugely important economically. What about Trade Me? Yet that is foreign owned.

If TradeMe's owners decided to run it into the ground like our railways were, we could build an alternative pretty quickly and cheaply. ie. there are alternatives.

As Keith points out, there are no…

Race based seats should go: Maori and the general seats.

That one really should be up to Maori. Te Tiriti predates Parliament, and does confer some racial rights, however bad an idea I think it is – they're not my rights to give or take.

But what u sed about…

The fact that the Maori seats do this shows these are the smartest electorates in New Zealand.

Nicely put. And good idea too. Naturally National could do the same thing with ACT. Just so long as they can convince everyone that would normally vote for them to vote for ACT,…

Really? Got any evidence? Frankly I think that is a huge assumption. Did Fay Richwhite have such concern over rail? What about Alan Gibbs and Telecom?

In both those cases, there were actually large foreign shareholders who took huge dividend incomes out of the respective companies, at the same time…

Really? Got any evidence? Frankly I think that is a huge assumption. Did Fay Richwhite have such concern over rail? What about Alan Gibbs and Telecom?

Oh for sure, it's purely speculation on my part – but so is the assertion that there is no difference between NZ based or…

A NZ-based investor at the least is more likely to keep some of the dividend stream here.

For sure, but what does that have to do with restricting control?
And like I said, 40% is already offshore owned by short-term money-plays who were keen to sell into the offer so…

The last time we had an upper house (the Legislative Council), it had become little more than a rubber stamp for the House of Reps by…

I'd add that you are happy with MP having the overhang because of the way they are behaving. What if that behaviour changed? Would you be so comfortable? That is a better test of the issue.

You so didn't get me, but I get that a lot so it's not…

If said NZ investor (say Auckland City Council, or the Cullen fund) instead put their money into an overseas investment, they'd get a stream of dividends from overseas.

It makes sense for any…

"Surely though a New Zealand based investor has more of a stake in the continuing economic prosperity of NZ as a whole, which…

Killer point. It would be nice to see the Herald's editors respond to that. Unfortunately, they don't respond to anything.

Well, the Government has responded. It's called the Cullen Fund and Kiwisaver. As a result of these two initiatives there *will* be more investment overseas which in turn will see…

The Maori seats are, in any case, a taonga and not for us whiteys to take away. If Maori want to get rid of them, they will.

Some time ago, a commenter on Kiwiblog whined that since there was a Maori Party, there should be a Rich White Guy Party.…

Once an asset is privately owned, that elusive "rational" investor is going to do the same thing regardless of nationality.

Surely though a New Zealand based investor has more of a stake in the continuing economic prosperity of NZ as a whole, which can be affected by how the airport…

I'd add that you are happy with MP having the overhang because of the way they are behaving. What if that behaviour changed? Would you be so comfortable? That is a better test of the issue.

I'm with Keith that the seats need to be addressed, and the pressure…

Kill MMP: STV and an Upper House please.

No and NO! STV is funky code for FPP. Just look at Ozzie. Upper House? Why?

While I actually agree with your argument about disenfranchising the Maori party (which is an important issue to consider), you can't have it both ways when…

Maori seats are simply an alternate way of grouping people into an electorate. The Epsom electorate is "people who…

I don't see any reason at all why an Eric Watson or whoever would be any more or less likely to invest appropriately than a Canadian pension fund.

It's a monopoly. It needs regulation, whoever owns it. Suggesting that a Kiwi investor would be more inclined to run it in…

It's a monopoly. It needs regulation, whoever owns it. Suggesting that a Kiwi investor would be more inclined to run it in…

This is why I hate MMP. Should have been STV.

Look at the totally disproprtionate, distorting and dangerous (3Ds!) influence wielded by the extremist religious parties in Israel, another MMP country.It's getting that representational balance right, but not letting*cue cliche* tail wag…

What a shame there are only those two alternatives, eh? Because clearly we could never ever spend less than we earn.

Anyway, there's sleight of hand there. As…

Rather than build a terminal extension to increase capacity, they might choose to increase fees to price out less profitable flights to, I dunno, Chile or something. It doesn't have to be dramatic or malicious to have a big flow-on impact for the rest of the country.

Yes I accept…

but what exactly is the risk posed by foreign investment here

When it comes time to build the second runway to enable growth to be accommodated, a major foreign investor might say __"I don't think we want to spend that money, eh! Its no rind off our bacon that the…

Does it? I'd kinda thought that reducing the current account deficit meant that *reducing* the country's reliance on foreign investment was imperative, especially given that the investment income deficit for the last recorded quarter (Sep 2007) was $3,255m – that's nearly 90% of the $3,628m current account deficit.

Killer point.…

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Auckland Airport really *is* strategically vital infrastructure.

I agree, but what exactly is the risk posed by foreign investment here – that the Candians will rip the runways up and ship the whole airport home to Vancouver, or that they will simply…