Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: A Friday-Appropriate Hager Excerpt

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 06 Sep 2011 09:47:56 +1200

been there, drone that…
Here’s a glimpse of what the Aussie soldiers do ‘over there’ in other people’s wars, from the Sydney Morning Herald
(also posted on the 'other peoples' wars' thread]

Just thinking

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 20:43:52 +1200

PJ should have got an Oscar these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCcaMIcwz30

This one is even pertinent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO1ltbO44Ew&feature=related

BenWilson

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:03:57 +1200

Those are really the only two ways that wandering goatherds could cease to be a problem.

I can think of half a dozen alternatives, that could at least buy them a whole lot of time for extraction. But yes, there will always be times when the horrible decision of killing…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:43:23 +1200

1. Ok, this is wierdly undocumented, but Ozborne apparently once exploded a goat onstage.

And PJ has previously blown up sheep with rocket launchers.

Rich Lock

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:53:36 +1200

Ozborne apparently once exploded a goat onstage

Are you sure it wasn't that he bit the head off a bat? Which actually happened and is well documented.

And it's O-s-b-o-u-r-n-e :)

Rich Lock

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:49:00 +1200

I've thought about this a bit more, and I think it's not really about the plan, the plan B or the lack thereof.

You're correct that they called for an extraction (and there was a problem with that which meant they were stuck). OK, shit happens. They got compromised and…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:59:05 +1200

one might assume that ten years later they might have found an effective way of dealing with being found by goatherders

What they could do is flood the battlefield pre-combat with hordes of Ozzie Ozborne clones hell-bent on exploding any goats they found (1).

Then any stray goat herders would…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:37:28 +1200

However, there is an implication in the story which suggests that they didn’t have a plan B

But they did. They called for extraction.
If you're on a covert mission, if you're compromised that's the end of things. You can't just go and find another spot to recon the same…

Rich Lock

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:13:19 +1200

What has changed, in the intervening 10 years, that would've given them a better way out? A reduction in morality so that the qualms about killing someone who's innocently going about their daily business are dispatched with? A marvellous advance in technology so that they can't be discovered? Those are…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:59:38 +1200

1. Don’t confuse US special forces, which the are ‘vote’ troops in question, with the SAS.

+1. It was US SEALs, not SAS, who put up execution as an option. The SAS appear to have retained their moral compass through the entire sorry affair.

I do wonder, though, whether the…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:48:05 +1200

Yes, one might assume that ten years later they might have found an effective way of dealing with being found by goatherders. But apparently not.

You mean a change in their ROE to mandate summary execution? That'd do it.
What has changed, in the intervening 10 years, that would've given…

Rich Lock

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:04:01 +1200

Yes, one might assume that ten years later they might have found an effective way of dealing with being found by goatherders. But apparently not.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 09:56:27 +1200

I read a similar story about an SAS patrol in the first Gulf War being found by a young goat herder and compromised as a result of not wanting to kill him.

Of course, correct SOP in these circumstances is to disembowel the kid and garrote him with his own…

Rich Lock

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 09:08:22 +1200

They have extraction strategies, being compromised by locals or targets is factored into the operational risk analysis.

Well, one would hope so. But it rather frequently doesn't seem to work that way, and that does beg an obvious question.

Rich Lock

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 09:05:54 +1200

Wow SAS Officers just do logistics.
I can understand the confusion. Their Corp belt is like a logistics blue seatbelt.
The supposed "vote" was about commiting a War Crime.
They train harder, and have other qualities, a propensity to murder isn't one.

1. Don't confuse US special forces, which the…

jb

Mon, 05 Sep 2011 07:37:39 +1200

The SAS officers were highly embarrassed that, after pushing to be given missions, the first one had gone wrong; and even more embarrassed because the urgent extraction of the New Zealanders involved heavy US military resources.

Why “embarrassed”?
They have extraction strategies, being compromised by locals or targets is factored…

peterpeasant

Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:43:54 +1200

The SA S stole a rifle from a civilian? I know times are tough but fo our SAS to be reduced to this is ridiculous.

How and when is tha Afghani gpotsherd going to replace that rifle?

No Wonder that occupying forces are so strongly resisted.

Just thinking

Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:20:50 +1200

Wow SAS Officers just do logistics.
I can understand the confusion. Their Corp belt is like a logistics blue seatbelt.

The supposed "vote" was about commiting a War Crime.

They train harder, and have other qualities, a propensity to murder isn't one.

BenWilson

Sun, 04 Sep 2011 15:14:07 +1200

The argument would have been that to leave them tied up would have inevitably led fairly quickly to their discovery and release, and the local bad guys would then have known there was a US team, on foot, in the local area. Dead bodies are easier to hide, and can't…

Rich Lock

Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:47:10 +1200

Officers are mostly involved in logistics and strategy issues, and generally do not deploy into the field. NCO's do most of the in-field work, and it is usual to deploy in teams of four, or thereabouts.

NCO's joining the SAS lose all previous rank and have to work their way…

Steve Curtis

Sun, 04 Sep 2011 10:54:21 +1200

I would have thought the junior officers in the SAS were like a jury foreman, only there to have a single person to pass on or receive orders from higher up

Just thinking

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 22:55:52 +1200

Agreed, an Officer would be wise to listen to his NCOs. This is in no way the same as a vote. Time is a key factor here. A good story it is, fact it is not likely to be.

BenWilson

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 16:30:59 +1200

I will confess to having spent a little too much time thinking about such things. It's an interesting martial art sub discipline, tying people up, whom you are pinning. I presume people can see immediately why it's not widely taught?

Sacha

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 16:03:09 +1200

I could fucking well tie a couple of people up just with the clothes I'm wearing right now

Noted. A bit part for that man too, perhaps..

Matthew Poole

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 15:54:27 +1200

Vote?

Very possibly, yes. One interesting consistency of at least the English-speaking special forces (I haven't read too much about the French and German ones, but the SAS (of all national persuasions) and Delta/Rangers/SEALs have also trained a lot of the rest of the world) is that until it comes…

BenWilson

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 15:52:26 +1200

Yes, it's fucked up. The tying up option seems perfectly good to me, and complaints of not having a rope simply pathetic. They could have cut bindings from their own, or the goatherd's, clothes. We're talking about elite commandos here, people who are meant to be able to cope with…

George Darroch

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 15:50:20 +1200

But when journalists asked Key to comment he refused, saying simply “I just don’t comment on issues of national security”.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10749096

But Mr Key, that is all I just want you to comment on.

It's becoming the catch-all for politicians who rather wouldn't. I don't remember it being the case,…

merc

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 12:53:55 +1200

But Mr Key, that is all I just want you to comment on.

Sacha

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 11:41:33 +1200

Willie gets a solo

George Darroch

Sat, 03 Sep 2011 11:32:11 +1200

Who would have guessed that the SAS Regimental March was the Sound of Music

SAS: The Musical. I'd love to see that.

Steve Curtis

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 21:04:38 +1200

High on a hill was a lonely goatherd
Lay ee odl lay ee odl lay hee hoo
Loud was the voice of the lonely goatherd
Lay ee odl lay ee odl-oo.....

Who would have guessed that the SAS Regimental March was the Sound of Music

Just thinking

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 18:48:28 +1200

Vote? This makes as much sense as Bravo Two Zero. A great yarn based on aspects of truth.

Notice how the ex-Defense Minister is er well, defensive?

I'm sure Hager is factually correct, and the Military followed their political leaders. The question over whether their direction were the same as…

Rich Lock

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 15:16:43 +1200

...and even if you consider that it would have been justifiable to protect yourself and your troopmates, on the basis that you were effectively alone and unsupported and releasing them would have been signing your own death warrent, I'd like to know how that argument applies here:

A UN complaint…

Rich Lock

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:50:10 +1200

It wasn't so much that he said those things, and they didn't actually kill the goatherds.

However, in my opinion, the most striking, and chilling part of the account is that the discussion took place at all. They clearly considered that killing at least one unarmed and blameless teenage boy…

Tristan

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:29:29 +1200

to be fair that was said in hindsight after his whole team was killed (and this his whole rescue team) because they couldn't get an extraction..

The guilt of having that vote and the lived of nearly 20 men on your hands might make you say things like that

Tom Semmens

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:04:29 +1200

You just know there are no Stanislav Petrov's in the US military.

Rich Lock

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 13:40:24 +1200

Some US soldiers in the same position would have seen an Afghan with a gun and simply shot him to avoid the mission being compromised.

Or, just shot a teenage goatherder who didn't actually have a gun.

As the morning wore on, three local goat herders stumbled upon the SEALs'…

James Norcliffe

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 13:28:54 +1200

I thinks it's "memento" – unless it was an automatic rifle...

Public Address

Fri, 02 Sep 2011 13:28:54 +1200

Discussion from blog post.