This is great in…

But where would the fun have been in that?

Indeed, I think a position that makes a claim is often worth having, whether the claim can be proved or not, if only to spark off debate. Almost all ethical theories are like that, and emotivism is no exception. It's just…

That's kinda what I was thinking of: I guess pragmatism seems like an anti-ism ism.

Or is it still an ism? Even skepticism is an ism, so perhaps we can't escape being part of some ism (trying to might be called escapism ;-))

I'm not convinced my views are that…

By debates getting more hostile, I'm referring to any number of debates that have involved heated ethical disputes and ended in open warfare. Slavery in the US would be a good example.

Okay, good, the Pinker link I provided is pretty relevant to that.

But I'm undecided/skeptical on all these…

Maybe, but that’s an “if”. At the very least, it would make sense to apply rationality unless we could know for sure there is only yuk and hurrah at the bottom, so to speak. You don’t need to resolve the “open question” issue in many actual debates.

That's a reasonable…

If these are just "yuk" and "Hurrah" then ultimately there is no rational resolution to them, and no point discussing them any further.

Maybe, but that’s an “if”. At the very least,…

Yeah me too. I’ve had time for a good debate. But still, probably time to let this thread drop, so I’ll try to make this my last response...

Yup, I've pretty much said all my material, and now I just feel like we're pointing out where we think the other…

Thanks for your responses – this debate is interesting to me,

Yeah me too. I’ve had time for a good debate. But still, probably time to let this thread drop, so I’ll try to make this my last response...

I'm not sure that the motivation behind the more famous proponents…

But I'm not so sure that sensation is totally divorced from reason

Neither am I, but either way that doesn’t help the emotivist case. It might help some other case for subjectivism in morality, but not theirs. My point was they are trying to say that moral statements are like…

Emotivists say taste preferences are just expressions of a sensation, not statements that we can consider as propositions.

Probably more accurate to say they are expressions of a preference. "Yuk" is not a sensation, it's a judgment, possibly, but not exclusively, based on a sensation.

If you expand the notion…

meaning by the terms (Reason, Evidence, Taste)

I have been using 'taste' in the limited sense of a sensation (“the flavour of apple is nice”) or an abstract preference (“my favourite colour is blue”). I have done this because that must be the sense emotivists mean. I’m not using “Reason”…

Reason and evidence simply form no part of the discourse over taste, per se.

This is as much of an assertion as the statement that reason and evidence are a large part of moral discourse. It would pay to be precise about what…

What you are trying to say is that the reasoning behind…

And I guess that's really my position regarding morals -…

My point was and probably still is, there must be an ultimate peice of engineering that is the best car, where everything works perfectly all the time and lasts forever.

It seems unlikely to me, because new things are always being invented to put into cars, and their stats are…

if a little academic and over intelectualised but what the hey

That's actually one of my main reasons for the position of 'emotivism'. If morals are like tastes, then, as with wine-tasting, one can work on them to a very great degree. But do you really need to learn wine-tasting…

I liken it to the temperature scale. On the "happiness" scale, being in the negatives is obviously bad, but, in my view, death is not 0 degrees Celsius, it is 0 degrees Kelvin. If you…

Thanks. I think you just doubled the readership of that blog post.

Heh, yup metaphysics doesn't appeal to so many people. But it was my bag, in my day, and I had a lot of my best discussions about it a little bit drunk.

I'll just say for now for…

Steve, thanks for your reply. That was an interesting post in your blog too.

Thanks. I think you just doubled the readership of that blog post.

It's definitely easier to be an absolutist when one wants to change other people's minds, insisting that there is a truth, and that you…

I think discussing the extent to which philosophy as an entire discipline has produced real answers that have spun off into sciences is a red herring. We were discussing whether it has done so for questions…

Were any conclusions ever drawn though? Was anything ever actually settled? Seriously, we're still having the same arguments now, and they're still not settled. Doesn't that suggest a…

It looks like your reason for exceptions to a no-suicide rule are much the same as mine. As I said right at the start – the…

"Should anyone who feels like killing themselves any time be allowed to?" -…

I have a vegan friend whom I totally respect. Deep vegan = straw & rubber sandals and *entirely artificial fibres* for all clothing. I really wasnt being unkind when I said, O, all that stuff comes coal? Oil? And coal? Oil? comes from-

his compromise is…

Isn't that contradictory? If morals are totally arbitrary, why would they even be shared amongst groups?

Why shouldn't they? Arbitrary doesn't necessarily mean random.

Also, even in less "enlightened" and scientific times than ours people discussed moral matters using logic and reason.

Were any conclusions ever drawn though? Was anything…

It boils down to saying that morals are like tastes – totally arbitrary, although probably shared amongst groups, but certainly without "logical" or "scientific" basis.

Isn't that contradictory? If morals are…

I managed to nicely time becoming a moral sceptic with finishing my MA thesis in ethics. Handy that one.

Heh, you held out! I turned moral skeptic during my first class on Ethics, and spent the next couple of years trying to talk myself out of it. I found that…

Spokesperson for Immorality

There'd be a queue (with lots of shoving and bribery).

In 2001, my uncle died: the person he had named as his executor/trustee was in a distant & very foriegn country (Saudi Arabia) and declined the job. Our family got together and fingered me...it took 3 months for the court to accept the change and probate to be…

Although men are more accepting of sex outside of marriage, women are more accepting of divorce.

Modus Penis?
Yes I have been reading, ;-)

Any of you guys been in the position of an executor of a will backing out and leaving a legal vacuum?
WTF?
Anyhoo, like the new…

It boils down to saying that morals are like tastes – totally arbitrary, although probably shared amongst groups, but certainly without "logical" or "scientific" basis.

Actually, I basically agree with this position. Except that I tend to think of it as a variant on social contract theory – the notion…

I'm also really surprised about the depth of feeling about fur in farming nation. All leather must be nude?

Frankly, I'd like to see some polling on meta-ethics: how many people…

ACC are trying to drastically reduce funding and access for counselling available to visitims of sexual assault and childhood sexual abuse (Sensitive Claims.)

Please help the counsellors and therapists trying to fight these changes by signing this online…

It's all separate catagories, see: Foreign Affairs, Economics, Crime, Health, Social Issues, Morality.

Excellent. I'm tempted to get into politics just so I can be Minister for Morality.

Which makes me ask: could we refer to their opposition counterpart as the Spokesperson for Immorality?

ETA: I'm using this edit button whether I need to…

Islander – I am shocked that Willets would at risk of being dethroned – but I would agree the Steak and Cheese comparison is the real test -…

it's just politics, nothing to do with morality.
how could i have been so dumb!?!
[note to self

must go home and re-learn these category thingies]

It's all separate catagories, see: Foreign Affairs, Economics, Crime, Health, Social Issues, Morality.

Should the death penalty as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?

That said, I'd argue that most moral questions boil down…

"fur trade" isn't just wearing animal skins – it's clubbing baby seals and killing off endangered species. I bet most of the people who said they believe it's morally wrong are just repeating their…

Frankly, on cloning: what's the big deal about differently aged twins?

Nothing, but until we solve the issues with epigenetic marking and severely shortened lifespans, it's not okay. And it would need some very tight regulation, because there is huge potential for abuse.

I'm boggled that cloning, adultery and polgynous marriage are the things that have the most unanimous disapproval.

I'd definitely like to see a gender/location breakdown on that.

Frankly, on cloning: what's the big deal about differently aged twins? Yes, there's a lot of potential for psychological damage with mad parents…

And, Lucy Stewart, I also wonder why 'fur' and not 'leather'...I'm sure as shit not going to abandon my possum& merino socks & jerseys – or my wonderful jacket lined with 12 of the little... Oz imports-

One wonders if perhaps people associate "fur" with, say, "dalmatian puppies" enough to have skewed…

Clearly the male outrage artists of the future will clone their wives, marry them and then encourage them to have sex with someone else.

More seriously, I'd love to see age and regional…

And, Lucy Stewart, I also wonder why 'fur' and not 'leather'...I'm sure as shit not going to abandon my possum& merino socks & jerseys – or my wonderful jacket lined with 12 of the little... Oz imports-

Likewise the undie wankers thread says 84 posts, but only shows 24 (a page 1 and 4 on a page 2).

Posts can be edited for 15 minutes after they are submitted.

Oooh!

Dunedin is my favourite city, but the tension between town & gown has been there since the University was established – the students were seen as an uncontrollable element (remember Dunedin's deep Presbytarian roots) from the beginning.

Hoons…

clusterfuck

I think you'll find a lot of it depends on whether the participants know about each other or not.

Interesting to see some polling on "moral" matters. Frankly, I'd like to see some polling on meta-ethics: how many people prefer Kant's categorical imperative to Benthamite utilitarianism, for instance.

That I believe is technically known as a "clusterfuck".

How dreadfully uncomfortable.

Indeed polygamy is a marriage with more than one spouse of any sex. What this survey refers to is polygyny (a man with multiple wives). The other option is polyandry (a woman with multiple husbands).

There is another option, where more than one female and more than one male are…

Here's the real moral question: Are heterosexual relationships moral?

Yeah. The big question here is, who decided (and how) what constitutes a "moral issue"?

Here, I'll add that it's probably unfortunately that 'polygamy' will as likely bring to mind 'having-a-wife-in-every-town'.

Since when the fuck do my relationships become the subject of a stupid shitty small-minded marketing company full of guys with weeny dicks running a poll on morality??

Fuck that.…

But I am starting to suspect not only that there are major differences between the urban areas, but also wildly diverse differences within urban areas.

My favourite anecdote around this is an interview with the Chief Censor, where he revealed that they'd stopped using Wellingtonians for test audiences because they…

oh just saw they later refined polygamy to mean a man with more than one wife.

Indeed polygamy is a marriage with more than one spouse of any sex. What this survey refers to is polygyny (a man with multiple wives). The other option is polyandry (a woman with multiple…

Close to half (47%) of men in the sample support the death penalty. That's the surprise for me.

Not really a surprise for me. Men tend on the whole to be more in favour of confrontational ways of resolving problems Which isn't to get all John Gray – the difference,…

I think the most disturbing thing in the results is the high level of support for the death penalty.... 43% is a lot of people agreeing the death penalty is morally acceptable.

It's actually not that unusual, although it has been lower in some polls here. And it's still below…

Intrigued by the huge gap between doctor-assisted suicide and just suicide (+18% vs – 48%)

I'm not surprised at all....

a doctor is only going to assist someone with a terminal illness with no possibility of improvement in their very real suffering... someone already so ill they cant get the…

But overall it just shows that morality is diverse.

Because of that diversity of opinion it is very difficult to define what New Zealanders believe is "moral" and even more difficult to use democracy or public opinion to guide law…

And polygamy really takes a hit, but unlike affairs of married people it's not a breach of any…

And I'm not surprised by this, but interested to see it spelt out:

homosexual relations [are] seen as morally acceptable by 69% of women but only 53% of men.