Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Why the censor's total ban on possession of "the Manifesto" is wrong

simon g

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 23:39:37 +1200

Here is a pamphlet listing 14 examples of apparent clampdowns on "free speech" after the mosque massacre.

https://twitter.com/henrycooke/status/1115003516760674305

(note: Henry is the reporter, not the author of the pamphlet!)

Of the 14 claims, only one is an action taken by a state authority (the Wairarapa arrest). It is before the…

Neil

Wed, 03 Apr 2019 12:12:18 +1300

Once someone is explicitly inciting specific acts of mass violence, how much time should be spent in text analysis or (far less reliably) psychological profiling? (Let alone unhelpful speculation about mental disorders.)

I think the idea is to identify predisposed men before they get to the acts of violence. The…

linger

Wed, 03 Apr 2019 11:12:52 +1300

There is also a limit to predictive linguistic analysis imposed by the algorithms of social media platforms (the…

Neil

Wed, 03 Apr 2019 09:56:27 +1300

Why would you need to know what mental health issues the man who murdered 50 people has?

As part of understanding why they came to act as they did inorder to develop methods of trying to prevent others doing the same.

Eg, that there are some significant psychological differences between…

Neil

Wed, 03 Apr 2019 09:14:18 +1300

The recent RNZ interview with Dr Paul Gill is worth listening to in terms of understanding the lone actor/internet phenomenon.

He doesn’t get round to talking about mental health but from reading some of his research it appears that terrorists who act within a group context have lower incidence of…

Craig Young

Sat, 30 Mar 2019 11:03:08 +1300

Scholarly analysis?

Neil

Sat, 30 Mar 2019 01:32:41 +1300

What about a redacted version, summarising but not replicating the content?

I’d opt for the full script minus any references to specific targets and specific techniques.

Picking up on whatever ironic subterfuge being used wouldn’t be possible with a summary.

Neil

Sat, 30 Mar 2019 01:04:57 +1300

We do not need access to yet another ‘manifesto’ to understand or ‘challenge’ the positions held by these dangerously inadequate men. It is not a ‘debate’.

I never said it was a debate. It’s strategy of countering their influence. Some men get drawn into very stange beliefs – understanding how…

Simon Armstrong

Fri, 29 Mar 2019 11:58:32 +1300

How about a malware infected version of the document inciting murder and terrorism?

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/03/28/new_zealand_manifesto_malware/

Sacha

Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:35:25 +1300

What is the point, outside of a legal process?

Craig Young

Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:23:03 +1300

What about a redacted version, summarising but not replicating the content?

Sacha

Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:04:55 +1300

We do not need access to yet another 'manifesto' to understand or 'challenge' the positions held by these dangerously inadequate men. It is not a 'debate'.

Neil

Fri, 29 Mar 2019 00:07:26 +1300

You likely read that material well after the damage was done. Bert potters actions apart from abusing children, was to encourage other pedophiles act out.

Potter’s manifesto needed to be dealt to head on. His argument that children only suffered from acts of sexual abuse from adults because sexual abuse…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 14:33:36 +1300

For me the key thing here is that the decision of the chief censor, who BTW has a shit tonne of experience making these judgements, can be challenged in court.

IF you or others can make a strong case that his decision should be modified, then by all means do…

linger

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 13:29:18 +1300

Aside from academic research, one other sort of exception where access would be beneficial would be for the purpose of informing security of potential targets.

Neil

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 12:11:40 +1300

Personally I wasn’t looking at this as a free speech vs censorship issue. I just think excluding the public from accessing the manifesto won’t disrupt the type of internet/social media radicalisation happening with this type of white supremist.

Moz

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 11:26:11 +1300

I've just been reading some US-based decrying of any attempt to censor anything in Aotearoa, and my gut reaction was "you can fuck right off".

More reasonably, there's a balance between actively promoting slaughter as the US does, and trying to conceal the existence of nasty things (The Vatican seems…

Craig Young

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 11:04:12 +1300

I consider myself anti-censorship, but nevertheless, the manifesto would appear to be an exception, especially if it details threats against specific individuals and groups in specific contexts. I agree with the above comments- censorship policy used to be far too influenced by the likes of Patricia Bartlett and her anti-censorship…

Russell Brown

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 09:32:54 +1300

I still have no idea how you would consider the manifesto deserving of separate treatment to the video.

I do think they represent distinctly different problems.

John Farrell

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 09:18:47 +1300

You might not – but there seems to be a group of people for whom Breibart and similar sites are the fount of truth. What would their view of the manifesto be?

Neil

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 08:45:42 +1300

You have read Bert Potter? I went to school with victims of Bert Potter and consider the idea of studying his thoughts vile and inhumane.

I read what he said as reported in the media which gave me an insight into his warped logic. I was making a distinction between…

BenWilson

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 20:01:45 +1300

I'm not sure either and I don't want to take the chance on an obscure point of academic interest just now.

Simon Armstrong

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:50:32 +1300

You have read Bert Potter? I went to school with victims of Bert Potter and consider the idea of studying his thoughts vile and inhumane.

Neil

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:19:39 +1300

I would prefer that until the assault rifle buyback and amnesty is completed, that no one still in possession of one legally gets any stupid ideas that could have been prevented by the simple expedient of the revocation of something that is highly objectionable anyway.

If there are people out…

Neil

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:01:53 +1300

I still have no idea how you would consider the manifesto deserving of separate treatment to the video.

It would be disrespectful of those killed and their families and friends to show them being killed.

I have read things said by Bert Potter advocating child sex abuse to find out…

Simon Armstrong

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:01:26 +1300

The fact the act has an illogical fixation with sexual deviancy which is clearly a health issue seems irrelevant in comparison of perpetrators of genocide who are clearly a health and safety issue. As I said the incoherent nature by association is an ill omen to the rest of the…

Michael Homer

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 16:31:29 +1300

The Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act and particularly section 3, "Meaning of objectionable", is what the post is talking about (and much too long to quote here).

Simon Armstrong

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 16:01:57 +1300

Apologies for my tone.

I have been having a huge problem processing the fact that 80%+ of teen boys with phones in New Zealand of schools I am familiar have watched the video multiple times and many continue to do so.

I am in denial about the international appetite for…

Simon Armstrong

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:40:15 +1300

It's not my comparison. That's what Parliament has said.

I don't follow. Perhaps a link would help?

I still have no idea how you would consider the manifesto deserving of separate treatment to the video. Perhaps you are wrong and the position that you have taken is a callous, disingenuous,…

BenWilson

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 14:26:11 +1300

If it contains highly specific instructions involving threats in NZ, I support the censor's blanket ban for now, because there is still some chance that there is more than one actor here and it would be better to not hinder the police with the subtleties, just as we prevent the…

Neil

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 14:10:02 +1300

I think you may be mistaken – people tending towards contemplating crimes, but not yet finding sufficient conviction to, may be more susceptible to the suggestions of someone who has demonstrated action and hopes to path the way by example.

Possibly, although the actions and motives of the Christchurch terrorist…

Fen Tex

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:48:32 +1300

A blanket ban over-values the manifesto’s influence on white supremacists, they will find inspiration where they need to,

Neil

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 12:50:51 +1300

A blanket ban over-values the manifesto’s influence on white supremacists, they will find inspiration where they need to, if in fact they need to, and denies the public an insight into how these people think.

Some thing like prosecuting people for using this material to incite hatred and violence would…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:51:45 +1300

given the woeful behaviour of editors and publishers in recent years, why trust them to judge what to do with material carefully crafted to incite violent hatred of a certain subsection of people?

The censor seems to, although he has also cautioned them to take care.
He's the expert, I'm…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:50:19 +1300

If you were trying to make a coherent argument I lost you from your comparison to child porn

It's not my comparison. That's what Parliament has said.

Simon Armstrong

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:48:54 +1300

Hey Graham, IMHO the manifesto and the video were part of the same heinous propaganda. If you were trying to make a coherent argument I lost you from your comparison to child porn, which for me only served as a warning to the uninformed and poorly edited content to follow.

Sacha

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 10:40:13 +1300

there would be a risk in passing a restriction that merely allowed someone who claimed to be a journalist to possess this manifesto

Is Farrar a journalist? Also, given the woeful behaviour of editors and publishers in recent years, why trust them to judge what to do with material carefully…

andin

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 09:47:33 +1300

Well the censor could have been just swept along in the tide of general revulsion at this mans actions, which I would find quite understandable and come to the conclusion 'who the fuck needs to read this drivel'.
Such a conclusion may not suit the requirements of fine legal minds…

Public Address

Tue, 26 Mar 2019 09:47:33 +1300

Discussion from blog post.