David Garrett, who said in the first reading of the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill that the victims of 77 murderers in jail “would be alive today if, at the time they were killed, this bill had been enforced. That is not arguable; it is simply arithmetic.”,

So that would…

12. Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) to the Minister of Corrections: Does she agree that information released under the Official Information Act by the Department of Corrections indicates that not one of the 423 prisoners serving life sentences would have been stopped by the proposed “three strikes” law?

**Hon…

A quick look through Hansard didn't show it up for me unfortunately.

Knowing this, Act tightened the criteria to a group of the more serious offences like rape, murder, aggravated assault – but did not get Corrections to adjust the "78 killers" figure. Act has just kept using it, without any qualification.

Did they, though?
Because they were quite right to campaign…

Now that's a more transparent govmint eh?

No. Just MMP.

Metiria: no, that was a deal, it was a deal done, they're voting against their own policy.

So this does suggest that both parties are voting for policies they don't believe in and we are left holding the baggage. Now that's a more transparent govmint eh?

Wallace: ... whaddaya reckon – banning patches in Wanganui? ...

Rodney: Well, I don't think it will have much impact ... ah ... we voted for it because it ...

[interuption]

Rodney: ... well here's here's the thing, we voted for it because what it's gonna to do…

I also note this apparent endorsement from Pansy Wong

__The National-led government has introduced two pieces of legislation aimed at tackling the problem of domestic violence; the Domestic Violence (Enhancing Safety) Bill, giving police the power to issue on-the-spot protection orders keep victims safe, and the Sentencing and Parole Reform…

I also note this apparent endorsement from Pansy Wong

The National-led government has introduced two pieces of legislation aimed at tackling the problem of domestic violence; the…

We Should Heat Prisons With Power's Rhetoric (2006)

And, by my reckoning, Simon Power would be renewable too – at least for the small investment in Bellamy's Bangers & Beans once a day.

Garrett just stated on the B ,when asked why 3? NZers are a fair lot and everyone deserves a 2nd chance so 3 it is.

Well that's a little illogical. This is actually an argument for a two-strike law (your chance not to commit your second strike after committing your…

Garrett just stated on the B ,when asked why 3? NZers are a fair lot and everyone deserves a 2nd chance so 3 it is.

Well that's a little illogical. This is actually an argument for a two-strike law (your chance not to commit your second strike after committing your…

Thanks to both of you for pointing it out!

you're welcome – I can assure you that prison food truly sucks too.

Regular posters to the 'your views' section typically haven't ever had to design and build a prison. It's not just a house with locks on the outside.

You know, I'd heard grumbling about underfloor heating in prisons before, and had somehow sneakily wondered whether it was an unneeded luxury. I…

Hawkes Bay remand unit was the scariest experience.

(Given you seem so jealous of their "central heating", would you let them freeze to death? Which, really, is the only alternative. Unless you want individual bar-heaters and a blowout of the electrical bill.)

"Central heating"? A hot water pipe running through the concrete floor most likely – I asked…

DomPost 4/3/2009: Two families accused of intimidation

The Granny 4/3/2009: Jury frightened into verdict, says lawyer

"Alter the Bill of Rights Act. We've got too hung up on people's rights."

A-G's office complaining your favourite bill breaches the bill of rights?

Solution: Change the BORA!

Hilarious. Or suicidally depressing. One or the other.

Would have been a funny discussion though:
Journo: "Mr Garrett, after this criticism, do you think we should change the law?"
Garrett: "Yes absolutely"
Journo: "Oh, well…

Solution: Change the BORA!

After all, disproportionately severe punishment is kind of the whole point.

__An interim order for name suppression was continued as the matter was to go before the High Court following an appeal by the defence.

I read this as: the judge refused to continue name suppression, but having been advised an appeal against that refusal would be made, made an interim…

Mark – a reason was given for the suppression:

An interim order for name suppression was continued as the matter was to go before the High Court following an appeal by the defence.

I read this as: the judge refused to continue name suppression, but having been advised an appeal…

Still not good, but probably not going to affect thousands of people.

"We should punish them by releasing them the day after they get put into prison, so that they feel the warmth and leisure of the prison system, but then get denied it and released into the harsh world of parole and weekly checkups with their parole officer."

SST…

You know the current state of this law well Graeme.

Does this mean that we're going to be seeing more prisoners released later (either second strike, or murder on first strike) but with no parole at all?

It may surprise you, but no.

1. All released murderers are on parole…

=|

The law does a couple of other things as well:

You know the current state of this law well Graeme.

Does this mean that we're going to be seeing more prisoners released later (either second strike, or murder on first strike) but with no parole at all?

Releasing serious violent…

How, I must ask? By ensuring that the extra parole officers are no longer required by refusing parole? Didn't Mr Garrett himself point out that there would have been less than 100 or so prisoners in jail due to this law, had it already been in place?

In jail for…

How, I must ask?…

a little imagination from legislators could go a long way.
Instead of Franchise deals.

Sure you're not thinking of copyright law? :)

An interim order for name suppression was continued as the matter was to go before the High Court following an appeal by the defence.

I read this as: the judge refused to continue name suppression, but having been advised an appeal…

a little imagination from legislators could go a long way.Instead of Franchise deals.

There's something about having convicted musicians serving four years prison sentences for sexual violation whilst having name suppression upheld that goads me to uncomfortably question some of the judges judgment.

I'm pretty comfortable with our jury system, and a system that allows judges who have heard all the evidence to ... um ... actually judge

really?

Yup. The American justice system has been bent out of shape by gimmick sentencing laws passed by cynical politicians. Sentences should be set by…

really?

Yes. Why?

If these 'snob yobs' were South Auckland hoods

Quite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz0GqyfeEgs

I'm pretty comfortable with our jury system, and a system that allows judges who have heard all the evidence to ... um ... actually judge

really?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4859852a19715.html

.

I know someone who's in a prison professionally.

I didn't know there was money in it! All this time I've been wasting, I should be off robbing banks and getting caught.

Rampaging youths trash cars, homes

Five teenagers arrested yesterday allegedly drove around Auckland on a six-hour vandalism rampage, causing more than $30,000 of damage to cars and property in some…

If they were to replace the third strike consequence of life with 25 years non-parole with preventive detention with a non-parole period equal to the finite sentence that would have been imposed, I'd probably still be opposed, but I'd have a much harder time making the case.

Yes. It's the…

Hilary is dead right

There are a whole lot of other reasons whereby the victims might have been alive today,...

The bill supposes that the best way to prevent crime is to create punitive deterrents. In this case particularly vengeful ones.…

But only halfway.

Some crimes are in some are out, who got to pick which crimes? Some are obviously about violence but others seem to be about culture (eg incest) – not a good thing…

I still don't really know the answer to Lucy's question.

How many of "the 78" would have been protected by the bill as it exists now. Not the bill SST drafted. How many of the criminals had served…

How To Troll Your Own Legislation In Nine Easy Steps?

Well, Labour accused National MPs of filibustering the EFA repeal the other day, so it's not entirely without precedent...

We need a word for this, we really do. "Irony" just doesn't seem sufficient.

How To Troll Your Own Legislation In Nine Easy Steps?

I think there are a couple of serious technical problems with a three strikes law. The first Graeme identified in his main post – a mandatory 25 year sentence may simply be too harsh a punishment for a particular third offence.

This concern turned out to be over-stated (my original…

Do we keep them in prison until they die, even if they otherwise qualify for parole? What about rest homes? How would the other residents feel then?

Perhaps they'll be forced to take the law into their own hands, as happened in Owen Marshall's excellent gothic short story "The Rule…

I responded to some dork

no-one here – ironically it seems with the exception of Lucy Stewart – is at all interested in debating

We need a word for this, we really do. "Irony" just doesn't seem sufficient.

Secondly, because there is no possibility of early release for genuine rehabilitation, the bill requires continued imprisonment even where inmates are no longer likely to re-offend, even where they did not 'deserve' a 25 year sentence on purely retributive grounds.

There's also the problem of what you *do* with them…

Sorry – 'strikes' not 'strokes' I hope the bill isn't bringing back flogging of prisoners.

Don't worry, I'm sure it's on the wish-list.

In other words, had a three strikes law been in force when those 78 people killed someone else, their victims would be alive today – or at least their deaths would have been from some other cause.

David ,this is the flaw in your argument. There are a whole lot…

I actually have known quite a few who have done time!
...
Have you actually BEEN inside a prison Lucy? I have, several of them.
...
I had experiences during eleven years working in the oil drilling industry in several different countries that most middle class people have not had.…

What "repeated allusions" would they be? I responded to some dork suggesting that I was an uneducated redneck ...I mentioned my work history prior to returning to the Ivory Tower I had abandoned 11 years previously just once...

But this is getting tedious...no-one here – ironically it seems with the…

like all intellectuall lefties, you just KNOW you're right and those of us who disagree are redneck idiot bigots

This is quite possible the most inadvertently comical sentence I've read all year. "Like all intellectual lefties, you generalise about other people!" Really, it is quite priceless.

On the other hand,…

Hopefully you're over the oil rig posturing – dressing up as some kind of Village People stereotype's hardly likely to get anyone to take you seriously, in or out of jail.

I haven't a clue what you are on about..Although I guess back in Aberdeen in 1977 some of us…

Because the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill sounds too draconian?

Quite right. Blame carnival excess last night. I was thinking about how "three strikes" set the tone.

Surely these sneering references to my wining a "king of the proles" competition cannot be a reference to members of the proletariat,

Maybe…

This is a left wing site isn't it? Are you all champions of the "proles" or is that only the ones who agree with you?

Now you're just being cute. Left wing, right wing – you know there's more to people than that, particularly if they're genuinely concerned about finding…

You know, this discussion might have been completely different if the legislation were called the Recidivist Violent Offender Incapacitation Bill.

Because the Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill sounds too draconian?

[I believe "Reform" is in there because to substantively amend separate pieces of legislation – generally not allowed under standing…

You know, this discussion might have been completely different if the legislation were called the Recidivist Violent Offender Incapacitation Bill.

Indeed. For starters, "(R)VOIB" is close enough to "VOIP" to be confusing.

David, since you're participating, how many of those 78 people you mention had been sentences to three or more sentences of more than five years? You say they had served more than three "sentence" episodes; you do not…

I am unsure how suggesting that Lucy is probably middle class is an "attack" since I am, by definition, a member of the middle class myself...

Take "... attacked Lucy" as shorthand for "attacked Lucy's argument". Let's agree to call it "responded to... ", if "attacked" is too colourful. Nevertheless,…

Guys who work on offshore rigs – particularly out of Morgan City Louisiana – are not usually choir boys...

Oh, man! I would *so* win a 'Louisiana proles' contest! It's a pity I think the whole concept is flawed...

Wadestown liberals....

Been a long time since I've heard that one.
As I said earlier, pretentious prolier-than-thou contest. And you're still at it. So long as sweeping generalisations are all the go, I'll take the opportunity to note that the world's a far more complex and diverse place than the average…

Their experiences and perspectives are an interesting counterpoint to the academics' ...and those of the Wadestown liberals....

I'd go easy on the labels, unless you want me to break out "oilrig wanker". The thing is: you don't know us, and assuming that we have had this or that experience is…

I am unsure how suggesting that Lucy is probably middle class is an "attack" since I am, by definition, a member of the middle class myself...the difference is…

The answer to your question – as usual in academic papers – is less than clear. And as usual, different academics say different things, depending on…

Well that's not true. Apart from the fact that we didn't have prisons 200 years ago.

Prisons are very different, and in some areas NZ Corrections have programmes of international standards in terms of recidivism.

You're right, I did overstate things a little. While prisons as an institution are largely…

Some of the comment since my post has been reasonable; much has simply been ad hominem argument directed at me personally – no surprise there.

David, your first comment here attacked Lucy for allegedly being "middle class", so maybe the high horse could use a rest, huh?

I also wonder how many of the people commenting have actually READ the Bill? The ACT version is still available on our website; the latest incarnation which blends ours into National's Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill is available on parliament's website.

Those who can be bothered to actually look at…

May I suggest that anyone considering adding to this "debate" first looks at the post by Mr Edgeler which began this ("thread" – is that…

At the time the Newgate Calendar was being compiled, England still had the so-called Bloody Code, which imposed the death penalty for anything more serious than minor theft (this…

Leading on from Steven and Joe's posts, you both mirror my experiences with petty criminals: they turn to crime because it seems easier, and it seems easier because life seems insurmountable if you're semi-literate, or very poor, or just not very bright. Turning prisons into hard-labour camps…

prolier-than-thou

Well played, sir!

Prisons in NZ are largely unchanged from 50, 100, or even 200 years ago. They do very little to stop reoffending, because that has never been part of their design.

Well that's not true. Apart from the fact that we didn't have prisons 200 years ago.

Prisons are very different,…

Lucy Stewart illustrates the reality that by and large, the middle class don't understand that deprivation of liberty per se is NOT a great punishment for many criminals.

I'll cheerfully cop to being a hideously overprivileged upper-middle-class white girl who's never been near a prison. Funnily enough, though, I can…

Have you actually BEEN inside a prison Lucy? I have, several of them.

I have too Garrett,and I'm not middle, I'm all class and of all those in our already overcrowded system that I know/ have known/aren't dead,not one occasion was a ride in the friggin park for any of…

The people who don't know anything much about criminality…

Prisons in NZ are largely unchanged from 50, 100, or even 200 years ago.

And the SST wants to knock them back another hundred or so.

This wee book was published in 1764. Still very advanced compared to the thinking of Garrett et al.

Lucy Stewart illustrates the reality that by and large, the middle class don't understand that deprivation of liberty per se is NOT a great punishment for many criminals.

David, what you're proposing is more of the same.

That "central heating" you talk about? It doesn't make NZ prisons very warm…

I can't speak for Lucy, but I've been inside Pare (including D block and the child sex offenders wing), Rimutaka, Auckland Central Remand, and also the new women's facility down in Manukau. While the recently-build facilities have that "new building" smell, they are uniformly dreary places.

Even in lower…

Have you actually BEEN inside a prison Lucy? I have, several of them.

No underfloor heating, CRT TVs *and* visits by David Garrett? Aren't these people suffering enough?

You may be confusing tough talk with desire. Just because they have to make light of the burden of being inside doesn't mean it is something they would choose.

I can understand that some people…

I know people are speaking highly of Chris Hocquard on the other thread, but for purposes of this one I'd just like to call

BINGO!

I'd be more interested in whether Mr. Hocquard's client list includes the very industry groups and commercial entities that have been the most vocal proponents…

You are quite right; depriving me of the ability to stop in at the pub for a beer on the way home…

would result in your Interest being turned off

you mean they can deprive me of sex, drugs and rock and roll and the internet?

OMG, these really are fascist MFers we are up against!

(woops, didn't mean to personalise it, Russell)

LOL Google News finds me this amusing gem. Emma's slip up is nothing compared to this

Er, actually? Section 92A was also known as the "three strikes" law at one point, and that's what they're referencing. My techie fiance thought that's what I was talking about when I asked him…

I'm a bit out of touch with how many murders are committed in NZ every year these days (thirty?), but i'd guess that of those murders, all but maybe one or two would have been committed by people with some kind of previous serious convictions and probably prision time.

Prior…

Has any analysis been done on just how many people would have been affected by this in the last few years? Does anyone have a link to such analysis?

I realise an injustice is an injustice whether it's committed on one person or on three hundred. But I do…

I'm a bit out of touch with how many murders are committed in NZ every year these days (thirty?), but i'd guess that of those murders, all but maybe one or two would have been committed by people with some kind of previous serious convictions and probably prision time.

Around…

I did think about this prospect, but ultimately decided I wasn't looking at it objectively, but rather giving the rationale of those who felt this way, and figured it was accurate.

Yes.

And to be fair, my 'research' isn't a fair comparison either.

A more valid one would be 'would…

There's a statement calling out for a little research into whether you're more likely to be injured by another person in prison, or out of prison.

Almost certainly in prison.

I did think about this prospect, but ultimately decided I wasn't looking at it objectively, but rather giving the rationale…

You have proved that you are incapable of functioning in civil society, so we're going to send you to prison where you can't hurt anyone.

There's a statement calling out for a little research into whether you're more likely to be injured by another person in prison, or out of…

Hysterical response to Copyright changes rings alarms

Principal of Entertainment Law Firm, Dominion Law Chris Hocquard has this to contribute to the ongoing debate over the implementation of a Code of Conduct for ISPs relating to repeat…

Actually, hey, that's an idea: lock David Garret in a hotel room with a plasma TV for five years and see if he still thinks it's better than they deserve afterwards.

Best idea I've heard all month.

They're not just not 'judging the risk that closely': by and large they don't know what the sentence IS. Ergo changing it isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference as far as deterrance goes. (Though because of the publicity obviously this bill is different.)

Yup, that's my point.…

Yes exactly. That's the basic fault with penalties as deterrents.

David Garrett and the Sensible Sentencing Trust really are not thinking of this law, or any of the other increases in sentences they've been pushing over the last decade or more as using the criminal justice system as a deterrent.…

My experience (which admittedly is down the not 25 years end of the scale) is that people simply don't think they're going to get caught. Therefore the penalty is irrelevant.

Yes exactly. That's the basic fault with penalties as deterrents. People either commit crimes in the heat of the moment/passion…

Therefore the penalty is irrelevant

Not much relevant to deterrence, for sure. Highly relevant to other concepts in punishment. Incapacitation. Retribution. Maybe even rehabilitation, if you are figuring that a longer term might be the only way to get through to some people who have already been tried on a…

My experience (which admittedly is down the not 25 years end of the scale) is that people simply don't think they're going to get caught. Therefore the penalty is irrelevant.

I think that's true of everyone who breaks the law. They magnify the rewards, and reduce the risk. I don't…

Stay away from the serious violence, rape, murder.

This provides me with a lead in to discuss the other change to be inserted by this bill.

As well as being the mechanism for fulfilling their promise to ACT to support three strikes legislation to select committee, and the means by…

Summary of this thought: This law is not aimed at the minds of criminals, who it considers to be lost causes. It's aimed at the society in which they are offending, which can be made happier and safer.

Yup I would largely agree with that.
Although I have been arguing…

Minor drug dealing, unarmed robberies, traffic offences – all fine. Stay away from the serious violence, rape, murder. Your 5 year crime is suddenly going to cost you 25.

Even major drug dealing isn't going to get you a third strike. For something to count as a strike, a few…

I don't think I could ever work in the…

It just gets more and more liberal :-)

Interesting – the fewer and fewer circumstances in which it will apply seems like a good thing. Effectively they are giving the sentencing judge some leeway in deciding what's a strike, although clearly a pretty-damn-serious-enough chain of crimes will trigger that 25yr…

If the offence that would constitute the third strike deserves a four year sentence, then a four-year sentence results.

Note to criminals: When you're on strike 2, you need to think really carefully about your next criminal activity. Minor drug dealing, unarmed robberies, traffic offences – all fine. Stay away…

It has to be remembered that there are several purposes of imprisonment,…

http://www.corrections.govt.nz/research/reconviction-patterns-of-released-prisoners-a-36-months-follow-up-analysis.html

It is generally accepted, based on a wide range of studies, that most offenders do not…

Ben, certainly you're right about the pattern, but you should also remember that it's two acts of paedophilia serious enough to warrant a five year prison term (on separate occasions). It doesn't deal with the pattern issue, but it does slightly mitigate the injustice.

For sure, it's a pattern of…

I stated in response to a question earlier:

Except that I assume the power of a judge to order a non-custodial sentence for the third offence would be removed by the Bill – is this correct?

For the third strike,…

It just gets more and more liberal :-)

Are they just appeasing their right wing and being secretevely sane? That's not what I'm wirted to expect from the tories.

I've just re-read the section 7 report, and a line in it had me re-read a new section.

When sentencing someone on a third strike, it will only result in…

The one case I can remember this being used was a really old guy who'd…

Sentencing Act 2002 s102 states:
(1) An offender who is convicted of murder must be sentenced to imprisonment for life unless, given the circumstances of the offence and the offender, a…

why are we really bothering

But most impotantly it will get politicians in the news – sigh.

You start with, say, murder at the lower end of offending. 8 years.

Murder already has a minimum sentence of life imprisonment, with a minimum non-parole period of 10 years.

If someone commits a murder, and does an aggravated robbery on being paroled, it is highly likely they will be…

I'm also considering a "decreasing slide in severity" of crimes. You start with, say,…

Especially if they're brothers, and they end up in the same prison ;-)

Now, now, we promised Emma we wouldn't go there again.

It won't reduce crime.
It will restrict judges ability to apply experience and knowledge to sentencing.

But most impotantly it will get politicians in the news – sigh.

You could say that Laura Norder keeps fixing the match.

So Graeme, with the new list of included offences, what's the lowest possible "usual" sentence for those? You mentioned three years in your original entry, does this still hold under the new offences list?

No it does not.

All the three year offences and five year offences which were listed…

Rugby League: 6th tackle handover
Softball/baseball: 3 strikes
Rugby: ?
Basketball: 3 seconds in the key
Cricket: 2nd bouncers in an over
Actually that is interesting because what if your 3 strikes are each 20 years apart? Surely after enough time being good your strikes should be removed.
Tennis:…

Look, do you want to have a bunch of killers and pervs on the loose or not? You smug intellectuals won't be smiling when your children are BRUTALLY SLAIN (photos of the scene on p3).

Stephen, you may enjoy the column I just put up.

you could still end up imprisoned for life for a (icky and indicative of some really weird psychological shit) consensual sex act between adults. In what way does this help society? Really?

Especially if they're brothers, and they end up in the same prison ;-)

That would still be my major gripe – two relatively serious offences, then you commit a more minor offence with maximum sentence of three years and you're off for 25? Clearly you're a nasty bugger but that still seems mainfestly unjust.

That's why I found the inclusion of some of…

Why a mnemonic should find its way into law, I don't know. Perhaps it's not the criminals that need…

I'd like that considered more than the magic number 3, and glib saying "three strikes and you're out [in surely?]".

It's too hard to get "Appropriately weighted prison sentences through judges empowered to analyse and consider the contexual issues" on to a billboard though. Especially when that huge picture of…

I realise it was debated yesterday instead of waiting until Tuesday, but it was sent to select committee.

There will be problems with this law; there always are when non-administrative legislation is rammed through. They may be flaws…

I find this kind of bizarre. Surely people guilty of these are more in need of intensive psychiatric treatment than 25 years in prison? Especially given that all the various permutations of statutory rape are included separately.

They'll only get the 25 years if they have two separate convictions for…

* incest

• compelling indecent act with animal

I find this kind of bizarre. Surely people guilty of these are more in need of intensive psychiatric treatment than 25 years in prison? Especially given that all the various permutations of statutory rape are included separately.

Yeah, unsurprisingly I'm wary that…

Except that I assume the power of a judge to order a non-custodial sentence for the third offence would be removed by the Bill – is this correct?

For the third strike, yes. For the third offence, probably not.

The power of a judge to order a non-custodial sentence on…

Bruce Emery's manslaughter of Pihema Cameron would have been serious enough to count as a strike.

Edit function needed :-)

Bruce Emery's manslaughter of Pihema Cameron would NOT have been serious enough to count as a strike.

Yes. More people in prison, but not more people thrown in prison.

Except that I assume the power of a judge to order a non-custodial sentence for the third offence would be removed by the Bill – is this correct?

In which case possibly more people thrown in prison. Admittedly,…

Bruce Emery's manslaughter of Pihema Cameron would have been serious enough to count as a strike.

I thought he was sentenced to less then five years?

2. This isn't just the SST's/ACT's three strikes law with a few changes, it's really National's two strikes sentencing law with additional consequences for a third strike added in.

It is worth noting that the Attorney-General's report indicates only that the aspects of the bill…