this

me neither.

what we have in this case is advertisers choosing to not have their products, their business, and their reputations associated with rape apologists.

personally i see that as "the free…

[oh wait, I do, do you actually think that you've "elevated the entire roastbusters debate" or was that retweet deliberately ironic?]

you have to wonder

I am a little confused by Graeme's original post. Why is it a bad thing if I, as a humble housewife, decide not shop somewhere and discourage others from doing so because their advertising is funding speech I dislike? It is one of the few powers I have…

I don't know where you're at today, but Wellington is glorious.

I've been at the beach.

That's pretty much what I was asking, many pages ago. Genuinely interested why the 'free speech' of some people trumps different rights of…

I wish more of those who so quickly jump to the defense of the powerful paused for that insight to fill them.

Yes, after 16 pages, I think we’ve established that as an argument. Excluding all other other arguments — including those relating to other "fundamentally undesirable" things --…

I have effectively responded to point 1 in my previous comment. Point 2 I think misses the point of principle. Andrews is interpreting it to be: Well it was ok in this case but the problem is it might lead to cases that aren't ok.…

Sorry, are you saying it’s possible to discuss rape without needing to blame the rapists?

Or, if you’re just saying that it’s possible to discuss rape without blaming the victims, yes, that’s possible, but it’s not what Willie and…

Ok, a little grammar. English, like every language I've ever studied and I presume every language in the world, has the active voice and the passive voice. In…

They didn’t say “we condone rape and the actions of rapists”. They said [things that mean they condone rape and the actions of rapists]. “
What they said and what they’ve been interpreted as saying are two different things.…

if jt and willie wanted to make a positive contribution to this debate, they should have just STFU and let smart people do it.

free speak != saying any damn stupid thing that…

traditionally it means 'unhappy middle aged woman, especially with drinking problem".

i've always associated it with the concomitant down-turned mouth.

make of that what you will.

I don’t think you understand what victim-blaming is.

They didn’t say “we condone rape and the actions of rapists”. They said [things that mean they condone rape and the actions of rapists].

You can’t blame rape victims for their…

Indeed. It's been a wake up call for me about how some people prioritize their…

Oh, fuck off. I listened to the…

That's it. I am apparently through the fucking looking-glass in this thread now.

@ Stephen Judd – I guess I'm one of the few people that actually listened to the show, albeit it was…

Support, education, prevention, law enforcement, legalities, gender affairs...just to name a few. How many of these get an airing?

Given a desirable end and innocuous means, there's no problem. There is no clear principle here, only a question of where the compromises are. Again, [[http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-think-it-possible-that-you-may/?p=301616#post301616|Andrew…

But what, precisely, led to its silence on Radio Live? Two men lost their radio show, but they're still free to discuss whatever they like in any other forum or medium. Nobody stopped Radio Live allowing its presenters, guests or…

Oh, DO go on. I'm all ears.

My point is that too many on the left are out and out hypocrites. When MP on the right act badly they have to resign. Look at the attitude of Labour when…

And let’s cash the reality check here: Even if management had read Willie Jackson the riot act six days…

Or calling men perverts on the basis of hearsay.

No, they haven't.

I'm not quite sure what your point is either…

And the video Anne posts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zr1oxEbdsw

Brilliant (though long and hard to read).

Chuck, some of us are talking about rape and the systematic silencing of women. Perhaps this isn't the place for debating trouts vs. cows?

+1

And in light of your comment.... Graeme went and wrote something that pushed me from irritated to…

What, you think my name is Petronius all of a sudden? Why are you asking me?

But since you are, and without being fully aware of the connotations of the term in NZE, I'd have to say…

Here's my take ...

When somebody writes an opinion piece that starts a row, then we on PA or anywhere else on the net can just link to the source, and discuss the evidence that is in front of our eyes. We may have…

But that's just research. Two sides to every argument, and how dare we privilege the fact-based one over the one that's Total Fucking Bullshit?

If anything, the commercial radio landscape is already vapid enough as it is, even without advertiser boycotts.

Or, as we call it down here…

Not for me. I think Graeme is wrong in this instance, but one of the reasons for engaging with him and his argument on this thread is that…

Well said. Annamarama. There's something very odd about…

Um, yes... I'm a semi-regular book reviewer for The Listener and arts/books editor Guy Somerset cut a joke from…

Which is really unforgivable. And a matter, one would think, for that new Mediaworks board.

Leaving aside the 'was there a boycott by advertisers of RadioLive or was there a boycott by consumers of…

Which is an argument for having strong public broadcasting, not just the commercial sort we're swimming in.

That is really bad. There does seem to be a real management problem going…

We don't need to imagine it: the single people I've been trying to reach more insistently during the whole…

Very disappointing and depressing.

Some of the comments have been extraordinary. They speak more of the men who wrote them than anything else, of course – but still.

I've got a simple observation on that. Who has their fingers on the dump switch in this scenario? If…

Let's imagine an alternative history in which I didn't write to Countdown and say "I will not be shopping with you as long as you continue to advertise on JT and Willie's show". Let's assume lots of other people didn't…

The wild-west atmosphere along with the many angry and unmoderated male voices creates a space in…

Well, I'm not sure I really want to get into another round of semantic split ends with you but I'm pretty sure Professor Geddis would most definitely be unleashing the…

This is exactly what concerns me. I've been staying out of this conversation because I could see both sides and would fluctuate depending on whose argument I was reading (if it were one of the many people making…

(Deal with the caps lock, you get used to it and it’s worth getting past it.)…

No (speaking for myself).

Because the State possesses resources and powers that are different to those available to the individual citizen, such that a decision on its part to "ban"…

ETA Although it is... interesting... that he chose this thread to spew into.

I wonder why people aren't more interested in fighting for their right to be heard?

You're acting as if those people aren't already attempting…

Does anyone here think that speech like that of Willie and JT should actually be banned? In the you-commit-a-criminal-offence-if-you-say-it sense?

And for those of you who answer “no”, why not?

And some of the people who oppose your view think your speech is pro-rape. They think that the things you say mean that there will be more victims of rape. So are they justified in…

"No" means no, so you can send your young daughter off to a wild party in skimpy clothes and tell her to get drunk. No, you wouldn't do that? Why not?…

Or obedient protestants running with the "work ethic", turning us from Human Beings to Human Doings.

Courtesy of obedient choirboys fantasising about 'freedom'.

I know how you feel.

I think I'll just stay away from it, actually.

Point taken.
This though is now,and we would like to think, as a species, we should have grown beyond that but…

And those “right reasons” were?

I've been thinking and thinking and thinking about the quotation that gives this post its title. It's such a clear-eyed statement of theoretical open-mindedness. Unobjectionable. Agreeable, even. A useful injunction; a workable bottom line for intelligent…

We did not and do not see it as in any way exercising some form of editorial control over another business

As a business we have a choice as to where we put advertising…

Actual "wow".

And I’m still struggling to see where anyone is saying otherwise, or where any passive-aggressive corporate censorship has actually happened anywhere.…

Graeme, I think for a lot of people…

Talkback radio not your thing eh? Interesting.

Indeed, but Hubbard lives in his own world in which I'm evil.

o wise one

Not what he has said.

Reaching new lows

Haven't seen it elsewhere either. Just lots of…

I've been oppressing him for ages by ignoring his wittering fantasy world.

No, it isn't a dumb idea. What is dumb however is to believe for a second that editorial independence exists in talkback radio. The format is designed to attract controversy and the owners/editors have demonstrated time and…

And about your fascist roots.

I'll warn you, people are going to say some pretty confusing things about your tits.

I'm going to call for a boycott against myself. Just give me a moment.

Let's swap inboxes!

None taken. It's particularly easy when people email…

I don't see how protesting the actions of talk-back hosts implies any lack of belief in editorial independence.

and I think it’s pretty clear that to a lot of us it really, really is

This.

The effect of this sort of talk isn't limited to survivors. Rapists hear it…

I don't think you're saying that JT and Willie getting taken off air was a breach of their freedom of speech (since as all good lawyers know, the right to freedom of speech is a…

(I realise the Marxists like Tiso do, but assume some of y'all are generally in favour of liberal democracy)

I would really love it if this thread – and Graeme – could grapple with what Anne's saying, because I think it's important. If rape apologism is oppressive – and I think it's pretty clear that…

Where did they stop making it clear that speaking up wasn't futile?

I don't think that actually happened. Could be wrong but my recollection of events goes something like:

1) Make it clear to Amy and listeners that speaking up is futile
2) Apologise for any offence caused…

By stopped, do you mean stopped talking about this case?

Or do you mean that they had given some sort of indication that they would not attempt to silence rape victims by bullying their supporters or implying that…

Except that they had stopped, before they were taken off the air.

Well, I did it because it's harder, and because it's easier to accept my claims are genuine if I am defending the speech of those with whom I disagree.

I suppose I…

If there's something special about their loss of opportunity…

The excellent Simon Wilson editorial I mentioned earlier is now online.

John, your constant snide inanity and obviously deeply felt desire to ridicule the whole idea that rape apology may be a serious issue have been some of the the most reliable companions I've had in the past two weeks. Keep it up.

Again. The real Tiso. As with your callous treatment of Thompson, which was evil, Giovanni..

It's not fair I sidetrack this anymore…

(Honest, I'm going to enjoy the last of the sun, promise)

I think there are some indigenous tribes deep in the Borneo who haven't been spammed by Mark yet. We should also sponsor him to go on an expedition.

ETA: Sorry about the tangent, but others are tackling the important issues up thread. I'm mostly just here to defend Milan's rep in the face…

It's not fucking about you.

Now I'm done. Lovely evening.

No, I don’t think it has. And it was good, thanks.

I take your point about how easy it is for many of us cis guys to congratulate ourselves and each other on our right-on-ness.

On…

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/the-29-stages-of-a-twitterstorm …

Thanks all above for proving my statement about context dropping. Especially to James Dunne also.

I merely meant that Tiso definitely intended to have them taken…

Depends on how you define 'silencing'. It's not like they've been shot at and had their throats slit, which is comparing apples and oranges.

because speech is action

If we hear more than one in every hundred comments spouting that stuff, it's more than their share. But try telling em they don't own all the oxygen..

seems to rely on intent, like many 'free-speech' arguments I've read lately. How is intent as opposed to results relevant?

The price of freedom of speech for Jackson and Tamihere on this issue would have been to remind sexual…

That's what you're saying, right? Because nobody could be so obtuse as to seriously claim that "not getting a radio show" is the same…

That’s because no-one gives a shit about a libertarian view. That’s not you being repressed – that’s because all freaking libertarian opinions are EXACTLY…

That's irrelevant. Tiso's campaign in going to the advertisers, could only have had the one intention, being to silence them permanently.

That's a bugbear of mine, Deborah, against your argument.

If you think your opinion is repressed as a woman, try being given…

Sorry, Graeme, but this aspect of your argument is really, really bugging me. Willie and JT were not silenced (as countless others have said already), and the two books you have cited are not even remotely banned. Not partially banned. Not incompletely banned. Not imperfectly…