Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: The New Zealand Election Tax

Phil Lyth

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:59:24 +1300

Brent

Largest number of candidates in an electorate in 2011 is 12, in Wgtn Central. In 2008, Wgtn Central had 14, again one of the largest if not the largest number.

And it would be a miracle if votes were evenly distributed as in your suggestion.

Interestingly, '5% of votes'…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:49:44 +1300

Apart from the dozen or so of them that look likely to be in the next parliament you mean?

No, I don't. Those ones have serious list candidacies, but pointless electorate candidacies.

The argument seems to be that the Greens should be allowed to run pointless, unwinnable candidates, but that…

Brent Jackson

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:23:43 +1300

I personally think that 5% of the winning candidates vote would be fairer than a flat 5%. For example, if 21 candidates run in a seat, and all of them get just under 5%, would all of them lose their deposit ? Including the winning candidate ?

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:44:55 +1300

Why 5% then? If it’s to discourage candidates who aren’t seriously contesting the electorate, why not 30%? 40%?

The winner quite frequently doesn't get 40%!

Under the Electoral Act 1956, you got your (initially ten pound) deposit back if you got at least one-quarter of the vote of the winning…

Michael Homer

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:34:33 +1300

Why 5% then? If it's to discourage candidates who aren't seriously contesting the electorate, why not 30%? 40%? You can't tell me that Jeremy Greenbrook-Held seriously intends to win Helensville; he's running solely as a stunt to drive publicity for his party. Why not discourage Labour candidacies that aren't going…

Phil Lyth

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:32:43 +1300

I'd almost be in favour of requiring anyone that appears on a party list to stand an electorate (almost, but not quite).

IIRC, Georgina te Heuheu was a list-only candidate in five election 1996 – 2008 and never contested an electorate. (Now retiring.)

Kyle Matthews

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:04:29 +1300

So why not discourage Green candidacies that aren’t going anywhere?

Apart from the dozen or so of them that look likely to be in the next parliament you mean?

We have a Mixed Member system. Which means that people will stand in electorates to raise their profile and the profile…

Joe Wylie

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:03:49 +1300

I can read LISP but I can’t write it.
That LISP, of the fully parenthesized syntax. If I recall correctly, it's an acronym derived from Lost In Stupid Parentheses.

BenWilson

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:56:21 +1300

I can read LISP but I can't write it.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:47:37 +1300

Lisp Service...
I pity any lip reader in NZ generally.
Jobs for lisp readers now available!
Queue at your nearest WINZ office...

BenWilson

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:41:44 +1300

I wonder how an experienced lip reader would go with Key – my guess is his lips would be unintelligible.

I pity any lip reader in NZ generally.

Richard Aston

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:25:27 +1300

I often wonder if he does that sort of thing deliberately, and what’s on the secret tapes is him talking with a posh school accent and no noticeable lisp

Interesting idea Ben, I like it. His lip movement doesn't seem to be different though , still looks like his vowels…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:56:20 +1300

I don't see electorate candidates in unwinnable seats as being "pointless". I prefer to cast my vote (at party and electorate level) for a party that I actually support (and its candidate). MMP lets me do that (in most electorates).

If my chosen party didn't run a candidate because of…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:49:19 +1300

Hmm? They don't have to. The defence of the present deposit system is that the candidate has to decide whether or not they reckon they can get 5%. If they don't get 5%, they lose the deposit. Now, this is very bad, in my opinion, when it impacts on fringe…

George Darroch

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:10 +1300

Keir – a very practical question (since electoral law seems very grounded in practicalities): how does the EC determine when a party's candidate is a serious one, with a serious attempt to take the seat?

Phil Lyth

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:43:48 +1300

You get your deposit back a week after the election no matter how many votes you get. Still forces people to be a bit committed

Well there's a new idea. Graeme might consider including that in his submission to the (possible) review of MMP.

Keir Leslie

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:21:11 +1300

The Greens in particular – Graham, Ross I hope, Hughes I have seen in action in Ohariu – are good at the meet-the-candidate events they are invited to as electorate candidates – at asking specifically for the party vote.

I.e. they are using the candidacy to promote a different thing.…

Phil Lyth

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:54:09 +1300

They are running purely for promotional reasons, not to win the election,

Can't say that I agree with you. Funnily enough I was discussing the point with an Electoral Commission staffer this afternoon: when registering a party or submitting a nomination, the Electoral Act has does not require that any…

Phil Lyth

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:51:16 +1300

Exactly Sacha.

At the Ohariu meeting I went along to, I…

Sacha

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:27:30 +1300

They are running purely for promotional reasons, not to win the election

the party vote is somewhat important for winning

Keir Leslie

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:52:27 +1300

I'm not describing it as a rort; I don't really like the idea of deposits, to be honest. But if we have deposits, the idea would seem to be to discourage candidates who have no hope of winning, but run anyway.

The Greens, for example, are precisely the kind of…

George Darroch

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:41:04 +1300

if Graham Kennedy wants to raise his profile by running in the Ilam electorate without a chance of winning, he should help meet the costs of his publicity stunt.

I'm running a candidate without a skerrick of a chance of winning (Todd Ross, Mangere, Green) in one of the safest…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:05:47 +1300

Oddly enough, it is precisely the minor parties' electorate candidates I have the least sympathy towards. They are running purely for promotional reasons, not to win the election, and I think it is entirely fair that if Graham Kennedy wants to raise his profile by running in the Ilam electorate…

BenWilson

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:05:34 +1300

I have suggested elsewhere we need a jester in parliament – especially for some of those tedious third readings of minor bills.

And someone has to wear the baubles.

ETA: Or bauballs as Key pronounced them this morning. I often wonder if he does that sort of thing deliberately, and…

Richard Aston

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:02:46 +1300

Lets not forget the joke parties in all this – I think they add a welcome crazy element to elections – Bill and Ben , Mad Hatters Tea Party, McGillicuddy Serious Party etc
We need to make it easy for them to stand – they represent a noble tradition of…

Phil Lyth

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:38:45 +1300

Some people have criticised the ease of registering a party in New Zealand: you only need 500 members.

I too am comfortable with that: entry is fairly easy so that, for example, Colin Craig can contest the election with the Conservative Party.

But there are ongoing requirements to retain registration,…

Phil Lyth

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:33:21 +1300

And a check of electionresults.govt.nz suggests that in 2008 of 186 candidates for non-Parliamentary parties, and independents, only 10 got their deposits back.

176 lost their deposits ($52,800) – $7,500 more than lost by four Parliamentary parties.

Phil Lyth

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:12:51 +1300

Ah yes: deposits in 2008 of Parliamentary parties:

ACT lost 55 deposits ($16,500), and recovered 4. Did not run in 11 other seats.
Greens lost 21 ($6,300) and recovered 39. Did not run in 10.
Progressive lost 25 ($7,500) and recovered 1.
United lost 50 ($15,000) and recovered 1.

Maori…

Phil Lyth

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:00:24 +1300

Certainly the idea of discussing this election tax is worthwhile. To point out it also impacts parliamentary parties incl Greens, ACT and United, all of whom have candidates running list-vote-only campaigns and many of whom do not recover deposits. I used to have the numbers somewhere . . .

Richard Aston

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:50:04 +1300

Great idea Graeme and I especially like the community nomination idea. It grounds the political process so well. My preference would be a minimum of 100 . If you cannot get 100 people to sign up their support for your nomination what possible chance would you have getting even 1%…

Richard Aston

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:44:12 +1300

On a completely unrelated note, the 'Family Tree' on the Kiwi Party's Wikipedia page is pretty amusing
NBH – that is a very interesting little political whakapapa indeed. Not a bad idea for all parties to show something like that.
But man those Christians parties have family backgrounds that look…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:59:06 +1300

I’d definitely be expecting the Conservative Party to top 0.5%, and so get at least their list deposit back, and from the way I’ve heard people talking about Rodney, Colin Craig is likely to get over 5% of the candidate vote there. I’d be picking about $1300, maybe up to…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:55:48 +1300

I don’t think the public is well served by the television media in that I think people want to see debate, preferably live debate, open to all parties. A situation in which the elite major parties are excused and only expected to talk to each other is not good enough.…

NBH

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:52:38 +1300

Really? I'd definitely be expecting the Conservative Party to top 0.5%, and so get at least their list deposit back, and from the way I've heard people talking about Rodney, Colin Craig is likely to get over 5% of the candidate vote there. I'd be picking about $1300, maybe up…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:50:37 +1300

Even a hundred would take some organising for a first time movement but on the other hand we do not want to make it too easy to fill the ballot with nut-cases

They would. Some people have criticised the ease of registering a party in New Zealand: you only need…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:50:08 +1300

I was thinking of the Conservative Party, which has nominated 52 electorate candidates and one list, for $16,600 all up. If they get back much more than $800, I’ll be surprised.

Going by its founder's record with the pro-smacking march, I would be too.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:48:37 +1300

Is the $1000 in addition to $300 for each candidate on the list? Or is it a $1000 flat rate for submitting a list of any length?

Sorry, could have been more clear: $300 per electorate. $1000 per list (of whatever length).

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:42:21 +1300

Ooh, do I get to fact check you Graeme? :-) I just did a very quick calculation using the Electoral Commission’s (appalling formatted) summary of the 2008 election table here, and as far as I can tell the only party outside Parliament that had to deposit anything even near this…

NBH

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:27:50 +1300

parties outside Parliament trying to enter the scene, pay 'election taxes' of perhaps $15k-$20k.

Ooh, do I get to fact check you Graeme? :-) I just did a very quick calculation using the Electoral Commission's (appalling formatted) summary of the 2008 election table here, and as far as I can…

Angela

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:53:40 +1300

Certainly the existing rules are not fair and need to be changed. I like the idea of a requirement demonstrating community support rather than a financial one, it's far more appropriate.
I don't think the public is well served by the television media in that I think people want to…

Raymond A Francis

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:30:05 +1300

Good points Graeme and a clear way to make this anti-democratic law go away

How many to nominate a candidate is the question, 1% of the electrate was my first thought but I doubt if the major parties could find 570 peple to sign a piece of paper
Even a…

izogi

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:22:05 +1300

Hi Graeme.
A $300 deposit is required for each candidate, and $1000 is required to nominate a party list.
Is the $1000 in addition to $300 for each candidate on the list? Or is it a $1000 flat rate for submitting a list of any length?

Public Address

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:22:05 +1300

Discussion from blog post.