Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: The law may be that stupid

Kyle Matthews

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:42:36 +1200

My understanding is that there is a sinking lid of total NZ pokies. So if Sky City gets 500 more that means 500 fewer for the rest of NZ and consequently 500 fewer returns to the Department of Internal Affairs to distribute (ie 37% of 500 pokie machines’ profit). Also…

Hilary Stace

Wed, 02 May 2012 19:37:25 +1200

Whatever, I think it would be a good idea to have an inquiry into the whole gaming industry/ charitable trust thing. Time for some transparency. And to ask questions about why the community and voluntary sector should be so dependent on gambling and alcohol, and why isn't it funded properly?

Richard Aston

Wed, 02 May 2012 17:20:11 +1200

Hilary – the sinking lid policy may be a smokescreen , Manukau and Waitakere councils were running a sinking lid, not sure whats happened to that under the super city, but its not a nationwide policy . Others are worried the extra 500 pokies is actually an extra 500 pokies.…

Minimiulis Minimiulis

Wed, 02 May 2012 15:22:25 +1200

Dogs may not bark after 6 PM. I really wonder what urges the legislators to pass these laws. What happens if a dog does bark? The dog goes to prison, or the pound, or maybe the owner goes to jail because his dog barked?

Hilary Stace

Wed, 02 May 2012 15:10:57 +1200

3410

Wed, 02 May 2012 14:19:05 +1200

Graeme,
To what extent, if any, is the Prime Minister obligated to abide by the Cabinet manual?

Richard Aston

Wed, 02 May 2012 13:41:45 +1200

"However, the overall effect of the SkyCity deal will be a large amount less for all the other charities and NGOs that depend on their annual funding from the contestable Lotteries and COGs grants distributed by the Department of Internal Affairs (and the others such as Pub Charity).
How does…

Sacha

Wed, 02 May 2012 12:59:39 +1200

Thanks. I guess we'd need to see actual proof that Banks had lied in the last few days to make it a current matter, then

Russell Brown

Wed, 02 May 2012 12:57:38 +1200

Because the Government is responsible to the House for the conduct of government. And something John Banks did while he was a private citizen, and not a minister or even member of parliament is not something the PM has to answer to the House for.

Was Banks, as Mayor of…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 02 May 2012 12:37:30 +1200

from Question Time yesterday, why is the PM not the ‘responsible minister’ for the conduct of his coalition cabinet?

Because the Government is responsible to the House for the conduct of government. And something John Banks did while he was a private citizen, and not a minister or even member…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 02 May 2012 11:48:23 +1200

Who is?
The market will work it out...
As it now appears to be the National Govt's arbiter and mantra on any matters that affect people or the country, oh hang on, that's everything!

Sacha

Wed, 02 May 2012 11:25:23 +1200

and from Question Time yesterday, why is the PM not the 'responsible minister' for the conduct of his coalition cabinet? Who is?

3410

Wed, 02 May 2012 09:24:55 +1200

Graeme,
To what extent, if any, is the Prime Minister obligated to abide by the Cabinet manual?

Maurice Field

Tue, 01 May 2012 21:54:10 +1200

Agree absolutely, read "The greening of America" by Charles Reich. Give everyone the same amount and make them convince as many people as possible the Banks type scenario is Bollocks. And Guys like John Key, Colin Craig or Mitt Romney should not be able to use their ill gotten gains…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:56:44 +1200

And it sounds like Key is resorting to taking a leaf out of John Howard's book to draw focus away from Banksgate:

__Within minutes Labour was floating quotes from Mr Key in the parallel Winston Peters-Owen Glenn donation furore in 2008 (when phone records did emerge), including the thundering: “Helen…

Michael Mckee

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:42:41 +1200

The reality is that John Banks has made great pains to push the Christian aspect of his upbringing in all his struggles to success.
As such he can't rely on the moral aspect of this series of incidents being different from the legal in this case.

That he has possibly…

Sacha

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:06:33 +1200

hundreds of charities including those who work with disadvantaged children will have to curtail their activities or close altogether

It'll stop the 'crowding out' of rich folk's private charitable impulses. Worked so well in Dickensian times..

Sacha

Tue, 01 May 2012 09:56:44 +1200

He was going on the other day about what a wonderful job that is spreading the largesse around

and waited until late in the panel discussion he was chairing on Q&A to declare his role. More of those wide ethics at play.

Hilary Stace

Tue, 01 May 2012 09:10:14 +1200

Paul Holmes is on the trust that disperses the SkyCity funds to charities (the 2% or whatever as opposed to the 37% from non Sky pokies). He was going on the other day about what a wonderful job that is spreading the largesse around. However, the overall effect of the…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 01 May 2012 08:46:11 +1200

Why not tax the lot of us for a 'recreation tax'

I think that already happens.

Keir Leslie

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:16:25 +1200

It would be a criminal case. It is almost always (but not quite always) a bad idea for any defendant to give evidence.

When I say Banks I mean Banks’ lawyer, really, I guess. (Isn’t that a weird way to put it now I think of it? Yes.)

The standard…

Ross Mason

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:07:05 +1200

It's only a figurative loophole, though. An actual loophole is a hole in the wall to look or shoot through.

I prefer the idea of a loophole being part of a noose which the hangman places over a condemned mans head such that the real noose seems to all and…

Ross Mason

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:57:17 +1200

Stunningly, Sir John has been one of the few who have pointed this out. This must be nightmare to organisations such as Field of Dreams.

It is damnable that charitable organisations, clubs, sports groups etc etc have to sponge off sources of funds such as pokie profits. These funds are…

Sacha

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:56:21 +1200

When the law says "know"

I'd welcome a lawyer explaining the principles/case law on that one.

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:48:24 +1200

For instance, I believe that Sky City is one of the main benefactors of John Walker’s “Field of Dreams” charity. What sort of pay back will they want from John in return of their preference to his charity?

I think you’ll find it’s the opposite. Walker’s charity gets its income…

3410

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:47:35 +1200

When the law says "know", does it mean in the same sense as "beyond reasonable doubt" in a court of law, or is it more absolute?

As I understand it, the latter for local elections & the former for general and by-elections.

Why? Just because!

Jarno van der Linden

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:41:17 +1200

Is the wording of the Act such that it actually forbids the candidate from declaring the name and address of a donor against a donation, when the candidate suspects or believes but does not know?

When the law says "know", does it mean in the same sense as "beyond reasonable…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:14:44 +1200

There are a few sorts of people I'd prefer weren't representing the citizens of New Zealand, but many of those people are doing just that right now. I'm not sure how that happened.

Malcolm X, in one of his saner moments, had a plausible explanation:

__"If you're not careful, the…

Moz

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:12:04 +1200

Unless, of course, we read "the candidate" in s.5 as we do in s.109(1)(b) as meaning "the candidate OR HIS/HER CAMPAIGN", which would bring the definition of anonymous into line with the apparent intention of the disclosure mandates in s.109.

That seems reasonable to me. What's being suggested as the…

Natalie Smith

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:58:25 +1200

This sounds like it will make it very difficult for the non declaration of a known donor to be a proven offence.

I am also wondering why we are letting another type of indirect donation get past any scrutiny.

For instance, I believe that Sky City is one of the…

izogi

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:26:00 +1200

In short "is this the kind of person we want representing the citizens of the country?"

There are a few sorts of people I'd prefer weren't representing the citizens of New Zealand, but many of those people are doing just that right now. I'm not sure how that happened.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:42:59 +1200

Mind you, if Banks stands up in a court and says "I sort-of knew but then I purposely confused myself so I didn't know" he's going to look like such a prat.

It would be a criminal case. It is almost always (but not quite always) a bad idea for…

BenWilson

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:55:29 +1200

This really is a loophole (with the underlying position being that loopholes are bad).

Whew. It's only a figurative loophole, though. An actual loophole is a hole in the wall to look or shoot through. Totally a design feature.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:34:04 +1200

Things get even more odd.

One thing we should bear in mind is that, despite all the arguments we might be able to make over what the laws could potentially mean, we are talking about a criminal statute. Ambiguity is appropriately resolved in favour of the defendent.

If we have…

Lilith __

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:33:09 +1200

From Stuff:

Pullar said that the allegation was a misuse of power and "an attempt to smear Michelle Boag's and my reputation".

"Had I not recorded this meeting, it would have been ACC's word against mine."

Prime Minister John Key conceded the recording appeared to show a "difference in opinion"…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:30:29 +1200

Are you saying this loophole is perfectly appropriate to our laws?

No. The word loophole is often ascribed to things that aren't loopholes.

But the word loophole is appropriately used here. This really is a loophole (with the underlying position being that loopholes are bad).

BenWilson

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:12:14 +1200

But sometimes "loophole" is a perfectly appropriate to a law, and the donation regime in the Local Electoral Act is a wonderful example.

...

So yeah. A loophole.

Color me confused. Are you saying this loophole is perfectly appropriate to our laws? I can't see anything appropriate about laws that…

Phil Lyth

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:06:55 +1200

Problems like this one have been fixed at a National level

I don't know that I'd agree with that in practice. The Electoral Commission has published the candidates' returns from the 2011 election.

I took a sample, the first 10 National candidates, electorates Auckland Central to East Coast. They declared…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:43:51 +1200

rubbing Epsom Salts in the wound....
John Banks takes his lead from The Master....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPe1OiKQuk
It may be easier for Banks to say what he does know
as there seems an awful lot he doesn't ...
or, as usual, he can't remember!
Can we demand he has a full medical…

Ethan Tucker

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:38:02 +1200

Problems like this one have been fixed at a National level

You may wish to amend that to a lower-case 'n'...

Keir Leslie

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:31:52 +1200

Mind you, if Banks stands up in a court and says ``I sort-of knew but then I purposely confused myself so I didn't know'' he's going to look like such a prat.

Phil Lyth

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:27:20 +1200

The anonymous donations issue in general elections has been fixed. Looking at the returns just published, anonymous money over $1,500 has to be paid to the Electoral Commission. Haven't yet found one example yet where that has happened.

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:23:26 +1200

Rich,

Banks didn't run for the two offices at the same time ... it was only long after he lost the mayoral race that he looked to ACT and Epsom. But in general, the rules as to which set of electoral laws apply depends on the purpose for any given…

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:20:15 +1200

Things get even more odd.

Under s.109(1)(b), the requirement is to disclose "the name and address of each person who made an electoral donation TO THE CANDIDATE and the amount of each electoral donation." But under s.109(2)(c), you can disclose "anonymous" donations.

So what does "anonymous" mean? Well, under s.5,…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:13:13 +1200

If someone runs as a parliamentary and a local candidate (as Banks did), do they have to keep their funds separate? How does it work – do candidate donations belong to the party if they have one?

Bart Janssen

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:06:18 +1200

So legally he might be right but morally he is pretty obviously corrupt, because he would have to work quite hard to avoid legally knowing.

In short "is this the kind of person we want representing the citizens of the country?"

Grassed Up

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:03:37 +1200

"Should that be "because the candidate does n't know.", or am I reading it wrongly?"

Yes – it should be ("doesn't", that is).

DexterX

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:59:42 +1200

The effect and operation of this law is to keep donors anonymous – such concealment is in the interest of the donor and the donee – whereas a law that operated in the public interest, in the interest of an open democracy, would provide a degree of transparency and full…

Sacha

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:54:55 +1200

It might hinge on an interpretation of "the" in "the donation". A tad Bill Clinton. Lucrative for laywers though.

However, if Banks can be proven to have been personally involved in the process of soliciting or receiving this particular donation then I'd love to see any court claim he didn't…

3410

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:50:12 +1200

That the campaign manager of a candidate knows who made a donation, but they don't tell isn't enough, because the candidate does know.

Should that be "because the candidate does n't know.", or am I reading it wrongly?

Raymond A Francis

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:37:26 +1200

Hmmm sometimes when I contemplate the whole political donation scene I am inclined to change my mind on allowing politicians to dig into the trough of public money to buy their way back into office
Then I remember who wrote the rules
And then I remember who actually gets the…

Public Address

Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:37:26 +1200

Discussion from blog post.