y'know, 'cause being a driver is just like going to a university.
y'know, 'cause ya have ta have a licence, y'know, just like NCEA level 3, eh?
y'kow, 'cause ya have ta sit some tests, just like exams, eh.
and it's not like drivers' money isn't…

You want freedom from being associated with the students assoc. That's just not what "freedom of association" means.

I'm pretty sure it is. If the National Government decided to administer part of the roading system by requiring every driver to become a member of the AA – even though it…

Then why not let me have it =)

But this is pointless. You're pretending it's about human rights, and it's just not. This is not a freedom of association issue, despite your attempt to pretend it is. Putting your name on the membership list does not restrict your freedom to…

As some would with the Civil Union Act?

Well, no, not in the context of our little side-bar conversation.

Unless I've misunderstood, marriage is only available for a bloke and a sheila, so the inequality remains. Compare this with the solution I proposed whereby SA's automatically exempt a student who…

Craig, that wasn't my point but I'll grant that I wasn't careful in my comments. What I mean is that a solution that addresses the objections is readily available, some would argue that it's in place.

As some would with the Civil Union Act?

I didn't see Paul using it to shut down debate. I saw him using it to take a poke at Roger Douglas, who apparently can't find anything more worthy of his attention in parliament.

Indeed. Should have more clearly indicated tongue-in-cheek.

If you prefer to avoid issues and conduct politics…

My point is that "it pales in significance compared with all manner or issues" is a pretty crappy way to try and shut down a debate. I totally get and respect why plenty of people around here don't get as invested and passionate about same-sex marriage as Emma and…

Still, I'm sure yappy dogs like Emma and I will hold our tongues about marriage equality until world peace, global hunger and global warming has been addressed. OK?

There's an equivalence Paul never made.

As Graeme admits, this is a point of principle which may make no practical difference.

Which…

and it pales in significance compared with all manner or issues...

I'm sure Michael Laws would agree with you — at least when he's using the bully pulpits of talkback radio and public office to tell children to shut the fuck up. (On the other hand, I don't know if…

it pales in significance compared with all manner or issues... issues Roger's apparently incapable of addressing... he's a bit senile yeah, can we say that?

If you prefer to avoid issues and conduct politics based on personalities you say whatever you like about him.

I've been making an argument about how I consider the present law represents an unjustifiable position, having regard to respect for human rights, and asking that the position be changed to something justifiable.

That you have, and you've made it. I "unjustifiable" is a little incongruous with the preceding discussion,…

Graeme,

You do realise that the system I propose is not at all theoretical? It is how many US universities work?

Yes.

*All* you get is the ability to not have your name listed as those who are members of the students assoc.

Then why not let me have it…

You do realise that the system I propose is not at all theoretical? It is how many US universities work?

(possibly 'most', though the voting aspect varies widely)

Also, Roger Douglas's VSM bill is very different than Michael Law's VSM bill was. I am surprised that you have not…

Let me see if I understand your "freedom of association" argument.

...

Is that it? What you object to is not the services and fees but the belonging?

I believe you do have it. There are some caveats around other rights that might be implicated depending how it was implemented…

I'd object just as strongly to a law giving the residents of every street the power to decide whether membership of a neighbourhood association should be compulsory for all street residents.

Let me see if I understand your "freedom of association" argument.

Suppose every university in the country declare the…

I'm pretty confident that's not true. I was VUWSA treasurer once and I helped reject an application. There have been other rejections.

It was true around 1993/4/5. I was president of WSU in '94 when the Laws bill was drawn and we quickly caucused practice at other unis. At the…

referred to VUWSA because, I recall, they pretty much automatically exempted people (but typically required a payment). A much smarter and fairer approach.

I'm pretty confident that's not true. I was VUWSA treasurer once and I helped reject an application. There have been other rejections.

It frustrates me that a…

Can you do school vouchers next?
I can in four sentences. Here goes...

Those were outcomes. Outcomes don't matter to Propertarians. If a solution provides objectively better benefits to most people, but interferes with property rights (the only valid human rights) then it's Wrong and Evil.

It doesn't matter that…

Good post, Steve Barnes.

Thank you Mr. Parks, welcome to the gang of Steves. ;-)

...it's a hell of a high threshold and applications (there are a few – I suspect from people, like you, who found the information by looking up the Education Act) are declined. It's not that…

First, because currently universities don't require their members to a join a student union (at least not any more).

Hang on, this is a bit suspicious. Obvs. universities tend not to, because they don't have to, but I strongly suspect that they have in the past, and would quite happily…

On that note – I just discovered that Roger encouraged his facebook fans to read my "excellent piece on VSM".

The person who commented on his link, saying that he couldn't agree because Graeme supported taxes. He's the person who I was arguing with last week about whether or not…

How does that not satisfy Graeme's concern? Students are not forced to enter an association they don't want to. Where's the problem?

...

Wait on...

Is the judgment to exempt someone entirely up to the SA?

Pretty much – kind of. There are a few problems with the current set-up.…

Is the judgment to exempt someone entirely up to the SA?

2) I actually agree with Graeme and Eddie that " Freedom OF Association" is intended to include Freedom FROM Association. (Much like how when we are speaking of 'Freedom OF Religion' it is taken to include freedom from religion, unless otherwise clear it is not…

I think you owe plenty o' beers to the people who argued with you the last few days.

Okay.

Now I'm sure we're at cross purposes.

I support voluntary membership of students' associations at New Zealand universities and other tertiary institutions.

I do not support universal membership of churches.

I…

I'd rather you went down the road of "Sir Roger Douglas – the Musical" myself.

On that note – I just discovered that Roger encouraged his facebook fans to read my "excellent piece on VSM".

"She says she always has to ask her father's permission before having lunch with fascists" is…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND_a8rA67VA

Can you do school vouchers next?

But what would the analogy be?

Hmmm. An argument about how state housing assistance should only be provided through public housing estates ... and that those who choose to live in the private sector because they think it suits their family or children better…

Can you do school vouchers next?

I can in four sentences. Here goes.

1. The New Zealand school system currently provides significant choice for parents by comparison with most first world western nations.

2. New Zealand schools are currently improving, in absolute and relative terms, as measured in terms of…

On the Human Rights issue, one of the Exec in 1999 was pro-VSM until Amnesty International published a letter in Canta saying they didn't believe it was a Human Rights issue.

An Amnesty International letter writing campaign to free poor widdle right-wingers from being forced to be members of radical…

It was carefully constructed satire.

Sonofa... Who are you, Rob Lowe in The West Wing?

No one ever said there was forced membership of the UCSA

Yep, so why legislate? The first set of legislation took away the right of members to disestablish their students’ association at a general meeting if they so wished. Students’ freedom to disassociate was abused by the first lot of…

Unless that entire post was a carefully constructed satire, it seems you are playing on both sides of the fence.

It was carefully constructed satire.

I may be missing something here, but isn't there something highly ironic about your stance on universal student association membership, given your advocacy – in your previous post – of universal church membership, where you said as follows:

"And it just doesn't seem fair that we all benefit from…

The UCSA is an interesting example in that there are no membership fees so it makes very little difference if membership is compulsory…

Never did.

Still don't.

Because leaders doing stupid things is not a reason for things being compulsory or not.

I agree. This is an argument for greater scrutiny, not an argument about membership. Still, Ben's point rankles with me too. I resented being tarred with the incompetence -brush when, more often than not, some…

Sure, but it's still grist to the "Why should I have to be in this stupid Union?" mill. That it was piss easy to rort so outrageously was not a big selling point.

Because leaders doing stupid things is not a reason for things being compulsory or not.

I don't…

I'm not sure when you went to university, but I think someone misled you there.

If so, it was consistent, because I asked every single year, when it came time to opt to pay the fees, what would I miss out on, and the answer always started with the library.…

On the broader question, you create an unbalanced situation where a wealthy, right-wing foreigner has the right to use their NZ customers money to propagandise freely, whilst poorer, left-wing students do not.

Really? So, Greater Wellington should be handing out contracts on basis of whether or not you approve of…

For me, there are such things as community rights, and the student community have a right to exercise these where they collectively choose to do so.

I don't think anyone is arguing against this. The one "right" I'm trying to remove from the student community is the right to force…

But Souter doesn't need one. He has a monopoly of buses in Wellington as well as receiving state funding

I thought Stagecoach had sold their bus interests to Infratil. It's now Lloyd Morrison et al running them as "Go Wellington".

instrument, even. instrument. I can haz edit function?

If, as you say, the current Bill of Rights makes it unlawful for a university to require its members to join a student union, why has there been no challenge in the courts?

In brief, because section 4 of the Bill of Rights states that the rights enumerated in the…

If, as you say, the current Bill of Rights makes…

But Souter doesn't need one. He has a monopoly of buses in Wellington as well as receiving state funding (in much the same way as Vic Uni does for its domestic students).

...

It comes back to my point on state and non-state actors: a powerful person or corporate doesn't…

Graeme, why are you referring to a case about Icelandic cabbies when the ECHR has specifically ruled (at least three times) on compulsory student unions and found them to be legal?

Because I wasn't using it to bolster my case. I was using it to attack the specious argument that…

I don't know, but certainly not because the New Zealand Parliament passed a law giving him the power to require you to fund him.

(Third post. I know)

But Souter doesn't need one. He has a monopoly of buses in Wellington as well as receiving state funding (in much the…

See:
Association x v Sweden

Halfon v UK

MA v Sweden

I don't know, but certainly not because the New Zealand Parliament passed a law giving him the power to require you to fund him.

So, why not repeal the whole of section 16A of the Education Act, so that student association membership becomes a matter for contract between universities and…

he's not justifying torture, quite the opposite.

Well, yes I guessed that but the logic of the statement says otherwise.

I can't think of an exception which proves that the right to torture isn't absolute.
There is no exception which proves that the right to torture is not absolute
There is…

That sounds suspiciously like George Bush. Do you want to rephrase that Kyle?.

No, he's not justifying torture, quite the opposite.

Even among those such as myself who view rights as a 'convenient fiction', there are times when we do in fact treat them as absolute, or at least as…

The right not to be subjected to torture is absolute.

I can't think of an exception which proves that the right to torture isn't absolute. That being said, it certainly doesn't make the right to free association absolute, as you've conceded.

While it creates a short term buzz of fairness it inevitably opens systems up to abuse and manipulation in the long term when power balances are changed dramatically with no real…

I actually agree with that statement, but its very much a minority view. The most prominent rights theorists – Dworkin, Rawls etc absolutely see rights as trumps.

I…

In every university except for Auckland and Otago, they chose to go compulsory. If they want VSM they can vote for it. It's in their hands. This is about taking that choice out of the hands of students.

Ahem. Auckland and Waikato. Otago won its referendum by 79%.

I'm not…

Again, their are no absolute freedoms or rights. More of one necessarily limits others.

I disagree.

The right not to be subjected to torture is absolute. That someone's not being tortured might mean someone else's right to life is endangered is tough.

Why? Because the right to be free from…

How, George? As Graeme said, the rights guaranteed under the NZBORA are individual rights. Putting those rights to a vote in the case of freedom of association is just as inappropriate as putting the right, say, to freedom from discrimination on the basis of sex, disability, sexual orientation, race etc,…

I really do think this comes down to whether or not you think students' associations are part of a university, or merely coincidental. I think they are, so I think it is entirely justified to have…

In every university except for Auckland and Otago, they chose to go compulsory. If they want VSM they can vote for it. It's in their hands. This is about taking that choice out of the hands of students.

How, George? As Graeme said, the rights guaranteed under the NZBORA are…

I really do think this comes down to whether or not you think students' associations are part of a university, or merely coincidental. I think they are, so I think…

And residents of Wellington, vote on whether people charged with sex crimes in their courts get fair trials.

That cannot be how a (liberal) democracy…

In every university except for Auckland and Otago, they chose to go compulsory. If they want VSM they can vote for it. It's in their hands. This is about taking that…

Universities are not liberal democracies.

Quite right. I'm not objecting to universities. I'm objecting to sections 229A ~ 229D of the Education Act 1989.

I'd object just as strongly to a law giving the residents of every street the power to decide whether membership of a neighbourhood association should be…

1) There's this thing called principle. It means that you don't change your general position on something just because its inconvenient at the time. If freedom of association is good for members or religious groups, protest groups, unions, etc, its also good for annoying pubescent…

A liberal democracy is one is which the fundamental rights of minorities are not subject to majority veto.

Universities are not liberal democracies.

Grrrrr, pedant.

Lawyer with a grad degree. Same thing :P.

Cite? Otherwise I call BS :).

Grrrrr, pedant.
;-)

The other point has been covered over and over again, it is "Freedom of Association" not "Freedom FROM Association"

Okay – I'll address this directly this time. With precedent even.

The protection of freedom OF association in Article 11(1) of the European Convention on Human Rights is in similar terms…

Ahhh, we've got to the nub of the issue, the so-called mission creep of students' associations. Were they simply academic and welfare advocates, and sometimes providers, you'd have no objection, is that right?

No.

I don't care if their sole function is conducting book clubs. It's the forced membership that…

Suppose I grant this, does it then follow Parliament passing Douglas's bill the best solution to this?

No it doesn't. And it's not something for which I argued.

I want what I see as an unreasonable limitation of the right to freedom of association removed. Feel free to replace it…

If it were not for an exemption for the armed forces the forced wearing of a uniform would be against the Bill of Rights Act 1990.

Cite? Otherwise I call BS :).

I just think trying to create a healthy student body by mandating membership of a student body association is a step too far, and a step that is unnecessary.

Suppose I grant this, does it then follow Parliament passing Douglas's bill the best solution to this? I can think of…

And being part of that is belonging to the Student Association. Your argument is like "I want to join the Army but I will not wear that uniform"

You are driving in wide circles around the point. The two situations are not equivalent in the slightest. How does the wearing…

"What is the compelling state interest to be advanced by giving associations of students the power to compel others to join them?

It's a balance of interests , this balance should provide richer discussions between an adult student body and any organisation that can help that many times "vunerable" juggle…

Very few people say, oh, I want to attend university. They say `I want to get a BA' or `I want to be a doctor'. So that argument's flawed from the beginning.

I think a hell of a lot of people want to attend university. It's easier to see in…

In the end I can't distinguish the principles from the practice and so am attracted to a long forgotten view in favour of universal membership. The difference being an automatic exemption from membership on application.

Do that, and my argument goes away.

A box on the enrolment form, or a…

1. to secure and maintain adequate state income, welfare and employment support for students...

6. to promote discussion and action as appropriate, on issues concerning students as citizens.

Ahhh, we've got to the nub of the issue, the so-called mission creep of students' associations. Were they simply academic and welfare…

He's right, of…

Craig, dear god, you just said that calling an actual straight up fucking merchant banker an usurer `had unfortunate anti-semitic connotations' & now you lecture others about Godwin. Do you have no fucking shame?

Keir: I have enough shame that there are certain terms I don't apply to people of Jewish…

The justification for universities is the advancement of knowledge and the dissemination and maintenance thereof by teaching and research; that is also the justification for students' associations.

I could go through a few others if necessary, but the justification for the Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association is also:

__1.…

National are going to humour Douglas and support it as far as select committee stage, but I doubt they'll have much interest in it after that.

It was their youth wing that generally press-ganged the caucus on this issue; usually it was a pretty average backbencher leading the charge (looking…

I'm still trying to locate the point of contention here. So, is your beef not with the tyranny of the majority within the student body, or the fact that an institution makes membership of an organisation a prerequisite, but that the institution has a state mandate to do so?

CSM…

I'm pretty sure I'm not arguing against the existence of universities.

Er, actually, I am pretty sure that what you have said is an argument against universities: you must associate to get the degree; you have very little choice about who to associate with if you want a given degree;…

The advancement of knowledge and the dissemination and maintenance thereof by teaching and research is I believe the standard terminology.

I'm pretty sure I'm not arguing against the existence of universities.

There is no compulsion to participate, which is where your Church analogy falls down.

My church analogy – which…

So why do you spend so much time on KiwiBlog?

Steve: For the sake of my own blood pressure, and to avoid further enabling your idiotic Godwin de-rail, I'm going to ignore you now.

(And I would have been far more willing to cut slack if you'd shown any sign of engaging with the reasons those are bad comparisons; it looks very much to me like arguing…

fighting over small potatoes (compared to say, equal pay for women)

Women still don't have equal pay. We don't have a pay equity unit.

It was always darkly amusing watching naive young students who had voted for VSM suddenly faced with the consequences of their actions. "Hang on, where have all the student services gone? Why does everything suddenly suck?" It was like an inadvertent lesson in the benefits of unionism.

Unfortunately, because of…

Pot. Kettle. Black. You know the rest.

That's right, Keir. I'm the one around here comparing VSM to the Nazi Party banning trade unions and opposition political parties.

The right of "Freedom of Association" is there to protect us from those that will not allow us to gather together and fight back against oppression. It is not there to allow us the right to not have to have anything to do with annoying people.

And the right to…

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Well Craig, there are none so blind as those that refuse to see.

And there are few more offensively stupid than those who view the Third Reich as nothing more than an occasion for cheap and spectacularly ignorant put-downs.

false equivalences

Pot. Kettle. Black. You know the rest.

"What is the compelling state interest to be advanced by giving associations of students the power to compel others to join them?

The advancement of knowledge and the dissemination and maintenance thereof by teaching and research is I believe the standard…

"What is the compelling state interest to be advanced by giving associations of students the power to compel others to join them?

It's been answered ad nauseam, you're just not paying attention.

The former, dude, the former.

I figured (for most people anyway...).

What follows is the rather simple question:

"Why?"

and the question I've repeated a few times that encapsulates what's necessary:

"What is the compelling state interest to be advanced by giving associations of students the power to compel others…

I keep thinking of Niemöller here. First they came for the students...

I keep thinking the poor fucker must be twirling in his grave, wishing he'd never opened his mouth. When it comes to astoundingly stupid (and borderline offensive) false equivalences, Graeme's not the one with the problem.

I'm off…

Labour's Grant Robertson was OUSA president in '94 and co-pres of NZUSA in '95, so I expect he'll be mulling over how to attack…

Suppressing exclamations of "what's with this fucking country?" has been hard over the last week.

1. They believe that the limit imposed in reasonable…

But I think you'd be on surer ground with a slightly different tack: Everything else has been deregulated — why not this?

It's more apt, and more palatable, than the human rights argument.

And also bankrupt.

I wasn't saying that we should make membership of students' associations voluntary because we've…

No.

So, erm, what difference does it make that Oxford used exclude dissenters? I am not arguing that Oxford did x therefore x is good; I am arguing that Oxford (and a whole bunch of other universities) did x (or rather x-like things), and that x has been proven by…

I was comparing things fought over (by students, particularly, or mass movements generally) in the past, with things fought over (by students, or mass movements) now. Why would things that have not yet been fought over (by students, or massmovements) be part of the comparison?

You could certainly have been…

So, what, the assertion is that all appeals to historical authority are flawed?

No.

I want to get a bus to Karori. Why should I be forced to subsidise Brian Souter's homophobia?

Good question. Perhaps that's one you could put to the members of the Greater Wellington Regional Transport Committee.…

Because you are guessing ;) and deep down you know she's right, right? What's left? Sue Bradford I guess. Round an' roun'.....

Sofie: Heh... Well, you may have noticed that you wouldn't want to bet the house on my voting Green in this or any other lifetime. But that doesn't…

Universities are independent bodies, and have historically chosen to have student associations. What this law (and the predecessor requiring ballots, for that matter) is to dictate that they cannot have such associations as part of the package of university membership.

Universities in New Zealand have never chosen whether to have…

No, Keir, its a reminder that people who want to appeal to historical authority really shouldn't treat history as a row of bulk bins where you can cherry pick the sweeties you like, and ignore the rest.

So, what, the assertion is that all appeals to historical authority are flawed?…

I want to get a bus to Karori. Why should I be forced to subsidise Brian Souter's homophobia?

I don't know, but certainly not because the New Zealand Parliament passed a law giving him the power to require you to fund him.

There's the equivalence again – and it's simply not true. Still at least one large potato to go.

No it isn't.

I've never fought with anyone over rights for the disabled. I've not seen an arguments here between other people over rights for the disabled.

I was comparing things fought…

This is an utterly specious argument,

No, Keir, its a reminder that people who want to appeal to historical authority really shouldn't treat history as a row of bulk bins where you can cherry pick the sweeties you like, and ignore the rest. I'll call bullshit on the right when…

There's the equivalence again – and it's simply not true. Still at least one large potato to go.

A father has just sent me a detailed account of his Asperger son's expulsion from secondary school, largely as a result of hostile staff not getting it, and not wanting to get…

I want to be a member of Victoria University, why should I be forced to be a member of the Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association?

'I would like to be a citizen of New Zealand. But I don't want to pay income tax! I don't use any of these…

The idea that students in particular aren't activist anymore isn't new; [...] this might in part be because the big fights that might affect them are over

Sure, we no longer have conscription, or legal apartheid in South Africa. Not so sure that the lack of student activism is much…

But what I'm left with right now is this: if Roger Douglas is in favour of voluntary membership, there's probably something deeply wrong with it.

*sigh* And If Sue Bradford is for something, I guess I should be against it. How's that worked out?

Universities are independent bodies, and have historically chosen to have student associations.

If you want to talk about disingenuity, Rich, let's examine the extremely selective use of history. As I pointed out upthread, "historically" Oxford and many other universities have chosen to exclude women, place a religious qualification on admission,…

The idea that we're now fighting over small potatoes (compared to say, equal pay for women)

There's the equivalence again – and it's simply not true. Still at least one large potato to go.

As a point of clarification, this refers to an effort by graduate Teaching Assistants (ie PhD students who also teach...

Unionisation efforts vary somewhat by university, but High Above Cayuga's Waters it was also Research Assistants, which can mean "PhD students who also do research unrelated to their theses in…

If they try to pass a law which requires newspapers to be NACT pamphlets we can fight it together.

Classic Tory disingenuousness, the idea that powerful people and bodies can't infringe human rights.

Newspapers generally are bad business propositions. Only very rich people and companies (or a few well-endowed bodies…

I would say I hadn't given it any thought at all, but when I was in grad school there was an attempt to organise grad students – by the UAW, of all people – at which time my approximate thoughts were "this really is nothing like a NZ student association,…

I want to be a member of Victoria University, why should I be forced to be a member of the Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association?

I want to get a bus to Karori. Why should I be forced to subsidise Graham Souter's homophobia?

I would say I hadn't given it any thought at all, but when I was in…

I want to be a member of Victoria University, why should I be forced to be a member of the Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association?

well, doh.
why should you be "forced" to abide by any of the regulations of VUW? because you want to be a member of…

Doesn't the 1999 law allow the same outcome as the Bill's proponents want?

No. At present, for example, it doesn't allow me to study at Victoria University while choosing not to be a member of VUWSA.

Graeme, I understand the matter of principle that you have outlined clearly as always, but the equivalence doesn't stand.

I really wasn't trying for equivalence.

As I noted in my other piece, I've been thinking about posting this for some while. I've a word document on my desktop with a…

To save time: I'm setting you up for a slippery slope argument.

An honest chess player. :)

I don't see…

Doesn't the 1999 law allow the same outcome as the Bill's proponents want?

why should I be forced to be a member of the Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association?

Because I benefit from the actions of the VUWSA including advocacy on behalf of all students as part of the university's governance and service provision arrangements.

I would like to see a serious argument that deals with the fact that universities are fundamentally associations & all the arguments against CSM also apply to universities full stop.

At it's most basic the argument is:

I want to be a member of Victoria University, why should I be forced…

This isn't the "last frontier". For that, try the experience of disabled people.

Thank you, Russell.

This wasn't the last in a long line of human rights battles. The last was some time ago.

Graeme, I understand the matter of principle that you have outlined clearly as always, but the…

I dunno; it seems to me that there's a conceptual difference about what it means to be at an university.

I…

If you didn't vote, then you indicated a desire to go along with the majority views of those that did.

It might also indicate that you were 8, and wouldn't attend the university in question for 10 years.

what if Student Associations were more like school Boards of Trustees... ? ie. if they were considered a fundamental and essential part of the organisation, rather than some kind of lobby group.

Perhaps they're more like Parent-Teacher Associations – part of the defined governance arrangements, not very powerful but better…

Students have the choice of attending an institution that doesn't include such membership in the package

Unless they go to one, which then changes to compulsory – like Waikato did, and Auckland has (twice?) tried to.

Having a student association as part of the "package" of higher education offered by…

It was no where near a majority of students.

If you didn't vote, then you indicated a desire to go along with the majority views of those that did.

That seems a strangely weak argument from a lawyer. I thought you might have pointed to precedent or common law. Instead, you're telling me that it's the vibe?

No. Merely that it was a side-point I didn't particularly feel like delving into in great depth.

So I obviously have no…

Would this argument still apply if SAs were apolitical?

And why should public institutions have more or less obligation with regards to the Bill of Rights?

The Bill of Rights only affects public institutions. Or rather, bodies exercising public powers. If you don't fit the following, the Bill of Rights…

It just really goes without saying

That seems a strangely weak argument from a lawyer. I thought you might have pointed to precedent or common law. Instead, you're telling me that it's the vibe?
You'd better get the keys to the Camira so you can move the Torana so that…

placing student association membership as the last stake in a line of human rights battles was a rhetorical device crying out for a tart response.

That was the exact (well maybe not exact) opposite of my intention.

This wasn't the last in a long line of human rights battles. The…

Private arrangements aren't government funded.

I have no problem with private universities saying that their students association is compulsory – in fact the bill accounts for this.

Equally, I'd have no problem with an employer saying they'd only employ staff who are members of a union (however unusual that may…

Keith – the first question revolves more around whether an institution that exercises public power should have that right (see section 3 of the Bill of Rights. And whether Parliament should be granting such bodies that power.

Would this argument still apply if SAs were apolitical?

And why should public…

Are bodycorps also a fundamental breach of human rights as well?

And, inadvertently, we're back to the argument about whether a person should be free to leave a university, because universities are themselves bodies corporate.

Reconstituting students' associations into a different role, is, unfortunately, as problematic as making them compulsory.

I was thinking more along the lines of making them into a straight governance body. In some respects similar to what happened to most of the health professions a few years back. The compulsory membership…

But as Graham would (rightly) respond, freedom is freedom and we should not quibble with something that advances it.

In a perfect world, we would not have conflicts of rights*, or conflicts of freedom. But as is quickly evident, we do. And in this case, the right to freedom of…

Okay, I've had a glass of wine and a re-read, and I care even less.

That's cool Russell — do hope you'll resist the urge to snarl "fuck off" the next time someone shows up and bitches you for crapping on about boring, irrelevant bullshit like broadcasting policy, gadget geekery…

To the extent that Students' Associations are separately incorporated bodies from their parent universities, by far the strongest argument against compulsory membership is the simple freedom of association argument presented by Graham.

That's a really interesting point. Seriously.

Because I don't think I have a great philosophical (or legal) objection…