So what constitutes insider trading?

Think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but if an associate transport spokesman asking a supplementary question over five years ago is some domestic Enron-meets-Watergate we've now entered the Twilight Zone. Seriously, is Ian Wishart (who has decided that [[http://www.stuff.co.nz/4607550a10.html | Lowell…

So what constitutes insider trading?

Think you might have posted this in the wrong thread, but if an associate transport spokesman asking a supplementary question over five years ago is some domestic Enron-meets-Watergate we've now entered the Twilight Zone. Seriously, is Ian Wishart (who has reached [[http://www.stuff.co.nz/4607550a10.htmlLowell Goddard is Howard…

That seems like a much…

show me how you voted

Just as well you are not blind, Rich. That's exactly how it stands for them now – minus the offers/threats, hopefully...

It's neither of those for me. It's not wanting somebody to be able to say to a voter: show me how you voted and I'll fix you…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10519884

You design it, I'll break it

Aahh – software testing at its most elegant...

I reckon that such a basic process doesn't need to get fancy. Let's face it, the only reason some people like the machines is because you get a faster result... and what, precisely…

People propose electronic or online voting systems and presume that security problems are just another technical issue that will be ironed out. The allure of automation persuades people to gloss over the difficulties, and turn to…

Kyle – you've forgotten that there are two senators.

Oh sorry yes, and the terms don't match up you're correct. Ignore my timetable then.

That's three people to elect: President, Senator, Congress critter. Drop that back a layer, and it's another three. Entirely manageable with paper and hand counting.

It's only every 12 years that you'll elect all three of president, senator, congress in one polling booth. Congress are every two years, president every…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10519656

And yet no-one has been made to account.

And thank goodness for that. Elected judiciaries are a scary concept, and there are plenty of stories about the shit that elected sheriffs get up to...

ITA, Matthew. Even if there are moments when I look at some of our resident Court Jesters and alleged leadership in the Police and…

They take down their signs the day before and it's over bar the shouting (later that night).

Also the one day every three years when the community cares about the elderly and lends a hand to include them…

where (on the federal level alone) you have a bicameral legislature and independent executive branch.

That's three people to elect: President, Senator, Congress critter. Drop that back a layer, and it's another three. Entirely manageable with paper and hand counting.

I also have my doubts that we're ever going to…

I think it's important that there is a bit of effort required. I ritually have voted in every election (in the three countries I've lived in). Never miss one. Even if I just spoil my paper (which I used to in the UK – bloody FPP!)

It's…

Also, it's not just councils. It's councils, DHBs, and probably one or two other bodies. Before you know it we're like the Yanks, where voter turnout is abysmal because nobody wants to wade through a 10-page voting sheet while standing at a polling booth.
General elections are of sufficient importance…

Then there was the counting, this was to be…

Why not have the council and general elections on the same day?

For one thing, they're currently on different cycles and aligning them would mean some pretty dramatic tinkering with term limits – 18 months one way or the other!

Also, it's not just councils. It's councils, DHBs, and probably…

Plus "optional secrecy" isn't secrecy, because anyone (parent, partner, ward heeler) can require one to vote unsecretly and show/give them the ballot paper. There have been numerous cases in the UK of party workers collecting postal votes.

I'd also argue for the abolition of postal elections for…

Resistance to online voting does not seem like a viable long-term proposition – for political, not technical reasons.

Sadly, I think that people will sacrifice the surety of our current system for the convenience (as in blatant laziness, not assistance of the disabled) of electronic voting. One of the few…

As our population ages, we can expect more disabled voters for whom getting to a physical polling place and reading a ballot in tiny print are a significant – and blatantly unfair -…

When you spend an hour at the polling station ticking boxes

You can also just pull the 'All Democrat' or 'All Republican' lever (whole 'nother kettle of fish, I know). It's not that onerous, really...

50% of me is horribly offended!

You had the sense to leave!

Seriously, I don't understand Americans who wail about how many things they have to vote for at every election. It's the way you do it, if you don't like it have it changed. I'd rate the election of…

Morons, one and all.

50% of me is horribly offended!

OK, well doesn't that pretty much screw the concept? Although I suppose the definition of secret ballot would come into play (e.g. does it simply mean it can't be traced after it's made?)

Not necessarily. People have a right to vote secretly, but a fair proportion of us don't (or…

"fixed" for what value?

I think Paul was referring to the USA. You can vote at any polling booth here in NZ, indeed as Matthew pointed out, you can adopt the McGillicuddy slogan and 'vote early, vote often...'

Matthew, my concern around secrecy for internet is not so much in the "transmission" of the vote (I imagine that has technical solutions) but in someone watching you (and therefore possibly coercing you to) cast that vote on your screen – but this same concern applies for postal votes. My…

So what's the argument behind a central government vote being absolutely super secret while a local government one can be handled through the post?

In a way that makes the local gummint ballot more secret, because unless the mail clearing person sees you drop your ballot into the post box,…

Although I suppose the definition of secret ballot would come into play (e.g. does it simply mean it can't be traced after it's made?)

We don't have that now. Every ballot has a unique serial number, and it's possible to track who voted how by way of that number. It's…

Counting pieces of paper is easy to conceptualise; public key cyptography is not.

That's why I don't think the assurances that we can provide for an electronic system are nearly as transparent for the general public as the assurances in a scrutineered manual system. That's the rub for me -…

OK, well doesn't that pretty much screw the concept? Although I suppose the definition of secret ballot would come into play (e.g. does it simply mean it can't be traced after it's made?)
I…

But in our house we've got a workable 'Don't ask, Don't get told to fuck off' policy in place.

Oh, I'd never dream of telling him who to vote for. (Okay, I would, but only in the context of a rousing political debate.) It was just that I was getting…

US elections... There's no real reason why they couldn't count the votes by hand

Something that's said time and time again on Slashdot, whenever the broken US electoral system is raised. Marks on paper, OCR, it just scales beautifully. The larger your electorate, the larger your pool of counters and…

In the benign circumstances we currently enjoy

Yes, quite. People died and still die for the right to a secret ballot, they did so because they knew it was critical to having their voices heard in a fair and equitable manner.

The word "seem" is important there.

Banking systems actually fail or calculate incorrectly or drop transactions or duplicate them or create bogus new ones quite often.

If other parties notice a problem, and they point out the problem, sometimes a system gets fixed. Other times the…

Re, secrecy – I can see the threats of coercion etc (although a polling booth hasn't done Zimbabwe much good on that front) but am yet to be convinced (please, give it a go!) that enforced secrecy is a critical ingredient of democratic elections?

A secret vote is a human…

and the one who did, did because I sat him down and loomed until he got it done.)

Heh... and I'm sure you can formidable when you get all loomy, Lucy. But in our house we've got a workable 'Don't ask, Don't get told to fuck off' policy in place.…

I have no idea why some countries vote on a week day

Maybe something to do with a tradition that only the landed gentry were entitled to participate, and thusly the voters didn't have to worry about fitting it in around their working day? Certainly to my cynically-distrustful-of-politicians view it…

And as for electronic voting, the security problems are so overwhelming I don't think they'll ever be fixed – hell, look at all the problems the US has with verifying voting by computer on-site

A lot of the problems the US has stem from the fact that their implementation was…

I don't mind long posts. I like reading especially if it's interesting and as your posts are and full of stuff I don't know.

Voting must be secret.

Therefore everything Greame said is exactly right.

I'd much prefer election day to be the one day a year when all…

if your parliamentary democracy isn't worth standing in line for a few minutes, once every three years, you don't bloody deserve it.

Absolutely. There's a truism in marketing that if you lower the price of something, the value of that item to the purchaser goes down. Now I'm glad that…

If you even try to look at whom someone is voting for in a polling place you can go to prison for two years. That's four times longer than the maximum penalty for a candidate who destroys ballot papers (a pet peeve of mine with our electoral law).

There's a…

I strongly suspect that you'd get much better turnout if the timeframe was limited

Agree with this – perhaps the vote should be "offered" on www.1-day.co.nz? =]

Re, secrecy – I can see the threats of coercion etc (although a polling booth hasn't done Zimbabwe much good on that front)…

Why don't you want people to know how you voted, comrade Gareth?

In the benign circumstances we currently enjoy this may not bother you, but I regard secrecy as essential.

If it comes to that, many…

Can't really see how you can get any more 'convenient' than having two weeks to put an envelope in the nearest mailbox.

In fact, I found that I voted at the last minute in local elections precisely because I had two weeks to put an envelope in the mailbox; most…

The catch is the verification of votes...If there's a dispute, the ballot papers can be counted again... The flip side, though, is that computer-based systems make it easier for disabled people to cast their vote for themselves...

Um, yeah. Exactly what Matthew said, this is pretty much what was going…

The sense of democracy as a community undertaking would be lost if we were able to stagger the election over two weeks.

Yes it would be, but it's not necessarily a crucial ingredient of democracy. A nice ingredient, but not crucial.

I very much doubt there would be more than…

my understanding is that New Zealand is pretty liberal when it comes to registration

Not really. Not registering is an offence, and people do, from time-to-time, get fined for it. Given that there's no obligation to actually vote, being required to register is a pretty minimal imposition.

As to the…

At the last election my daughter was 6. She put a lot of effort into understanding what all the bill boards were about, what an election was about, even the main policy thrusts of all the…

But, in the UK, elections are always held on a Thursday, so, as…

I like the New Zealand feel and formality of the peresent system
All my votes have been in small country schools (Poolburn, Waihaorunga and Waihao Downs) usually with not many others present
Check of name and behind the screen to do my civic duty…

That's an angle I hadn't thought of. But yes: voting is an important ritual.

Yes, and for the hysterical vapourings from various quarters, we are going to hold a free and fair election. Iif a change of Government is the outcome then it's not going to be changed at the…

We vote because we think we should. Because when we were younger our parents took us with them when they were voting and it was solemn and seemed important. We vote because there's one day ever three years when voting is what you do – what everyone does.

Amen. My…

I'm against any plans for internet voting. Partly because of the very severe technological challenges in constructing a secure system, but mostly because it will totally destroy faith in the outcome.

Right now, if enough people…