Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Referendum Fact Check 4: The MMP Debate

Andrew Geddis

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:47:37 +1300

Factchecking the fact checker ...

"...the Electoral Act requires that parties have democratic processes for the selection of candidates. It doesn’t give an explicit consequence for a failure, but I anticipate the Electoral Commission could refuse or revoke a party’s registration."

You'd be wrong. There's nothing in the Electoral Act…

NBH

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:41:09 +1300

Apologies for my apparent lack of faith, Graeme! :-)

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:24:03 +1300

I assume the greens voted something like “it’s getting late, this has taken ages and we’re only up to number 30, all those in favour of throwing those last 31 names on the party list in alphabetical order ….”

ACT did the same thing. I think its a bad look.…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:22:09 +1300

Does anyone know what happens in that case?

Yes. Although I'm a little offended by the inclusion of the words "does anyone know" :-) Because even if I didn't, I'd totally find out. Plus I did.

1, The other people on the list whose names haven't been published by the…

NBH

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:35:51 +1300

Looking at the lists, it's interesting that National only has candidates ranked up to 65. I would've thought that there's a possibility that they'll end up being entitled to more seats than that (allowing for below-the-threshold votes presumably that'd require around 55% of votes). Does anyone know what happens in…

linger

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:22:53 +1300

Understandable if true; even in the Greens' wildest dreams, they wouldn't hope to get 30 members in this year.

Paul Campbell

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:09:50 +1300

speaking of parties having democratic processes for choosing party lists I assume the greens voted something like "it's getting late, this has taken ages and we're only up to number 30, all those in favour of throwing those last 31 names on the party list in alphabetical order ...."

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 10:29:20 +1300

re the four alternatives to MMP going to be listed in the same order on all the referendum voting papers? Looking at the sample image on the official sites it would appear so, with FPP listed first (in alphabetical order). Do you think that could make a difference to the…

Venetia King

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:38:20 +1300

Thanks for all the referendum research Graeme, much appreciated. Apologies if you've covered this already but I couldn't find it – are the four alternatives to MMP going to be listed in the same order on all the referendum voting papers? Looking at the sample image on the official sites…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:43:34 +1300

Nah, a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_vote is when you vote 1,2,3 down the page in order. It favours candidates like Aaron Bhatnagar, unless the order is randomised.

And about 5% of Australian votes get spoiled. It's hard to detect donkey votes by their nature.

steve black

Tue, 01 Nov 2011 12:35:02 +1300

I understand with compulsory voting, the Aussies regard anything from a tick instead of a cross to drawings of penii on the ballot paper as an “informal vote”?

An “informal” vote is commonly called a “donkey vote” in Australia, which raises interesting questions about the size of organ which might…

Damian Christie

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:08:04 +1300

But the one thing that always gets me in these discussions is the “Winston chose the Government” line.

I agree. My position is don't blame Winston – blame both National and Labour for being so power-hungry that they'd countenance a bargain with the prick.

Gareth Ward

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:35:24 +1300

This detailed level of beautiful nitpickery has largely gone past me but certainly encouraged me to read up on the details of the systems offered so thank you for that...

But the one thing that always gets me in these discussions is the "Winston chose the Government" line. No, a…

Damian Christie

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:24:59 +1300

Regarding Cullen and the 20%-with-no-seats-to-show-for-it call, I think he's confusing the NZ Party, which got 12% of the vote in 1984 but no seats, with Social Credit, who got 20% in 1981, but only held two seats. Both unthinkable in this post-FPP world, but as you point out, not the…

Shane Riddle

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:23:57 +1300

I was at the debate. On the radio you miss the faces Cullen made while Richardson was speaking, how Cullen & Bolger whispered in seeming solidarity to one another while Richardson was talking, a lot, and anti MMP guy passing notes to Richardson.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:27:41 +1300

I reckon it comes from the UK, where walking 40 miles 'cross 't Pennines in't bare feet in't snow in order to vote might have been a deterrent. For the same reason 96 hour shifts down't pits were not allowed to span polling day.

merc

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:03:23 +1300

That's a wad of assumptions there. Mainly for me I don't like the compulsory vote thing because I think the non-vote (must register to vote though) is also a vote.
Besides the usual nastiness behind forcing people to vote for people they cannot countenance.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:07:47 +1300

So there’s nothing to the received wisdom that sunny days favor Labour?

There could easily be something to that, but I suspect it's not major.

BenWilson

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:35:48 +1300

So there's nothing to the received wisdom that sunny days favor Labour?

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:11:00 +1300

Compulsory voting = game changer.

I'm not so sure. Academic opinion is divided. It seems likely to me that compulsory voting isn't beneficial so much to one side as it is to the incumbent. People who kinda think the government isn't too bad, but aren't big fans of it, are…

Phil Lyth

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:03:43 +1300

oh, and on the referendum site under the heading What will I be asked?, it says (bold emphasis added):
There are two questions you will be asked. You can choose to answer both questions, or only the first one, or only the second one. You will be asked to tick…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:00:44 +1300

Lazy question. Are we forced to vote for one of the four if we want to retain MMP?

No. You can vote in either question or both questions. Also, an invalid vote in one of the questions will not render a vote in the other question invalid as well.

Phil Lyth

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:54:40 +1300

Schedule 1 of the Electoral Referendum Act specifies the form of the ballot paper. It explicitly says:

You may vote in both Part A and Part B or you may vote in only Part A or only Part B.

BlairMacca

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:31:17 +1300

Lazy question. Are we forced to vote for one of the four if we want to retain MMP? Is our vote invalid if we do not choose one? Cant seem to find any information on this on the referendum site

merc

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:29:21 +1300

Compulsory voting = game changer.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:21:52 +1300

I understand with compulsory voting, the Aussies regard anything from a tick instead of a cross to drawings of penii on the ballot paper as an "informal vote"?

Hilary Stace

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:50:04 +1300

I listened to this debate and kept thinking. 'I wonder what Graeme would say', so it was a pity they didn't ask you to fact check on the spot. So thank you for your analysis.

I think it is interesting that those who come from the least democratic parties complain…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:44:36 +1300

Thinking about it more I think that party lists are giant red herring ... The alternative is a separate US style primary vote ….

There are other alternatives. As I note, we could have open lists, where the people who are elected off the party list are those who got…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:38:39 +1300

struggled to understand the STV bit as alluding to our cousins over the ditch (which makes me wonder how many Aussies get it too) but very good analysis.

I really only included it because it meant I got to correct Nigel Roberts.

In short, under STV you rank candidates.

Under…

merc

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:31:40 +1300

And our guy sells schools to pay for his power...or something.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:24:43 +1300

He was a very complex character and shouldn't really be judged by the standards of the 21st century. ( I doubt many politicians of that era would show up well on that basis. Lloyd George was seen by the Nazis as a potential quisling, practically all labour movements had a…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:13:45 +1300

Hussar, Hussar…
…and at most other times he was a cold, ruthless barbarian. His life is practically a litany of deliberate attempts to block progress, almost all of them involving large scale violence.
Happy to let Gandhi starve to death he was a crushing Boer, indeed.
But Churchill ‘Occupies History’…

BenWilson

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:37:14 +1300

Who was it said the best argument against democracy was five minutes with the average voter, Churchill?

Heh, that was a post war quote, after he got voted out. He never did get that guys like him are only of value when full scale war is unavoidable, or already happening,…

Richard Wain

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:45:33 +1300

Ditto what Ben says... struggled to understand the STV bit as alluding to our cousins over the ditch (which makes me wonder how many Aussies get it too) but very good analysis.

Alas, I doubt very, very much that most folks will think anywhere near as hard about the referendum…

BenWilson

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:23:04 +1300

I'm really enjoying this series, Graeme. Very informative.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:40:35 +1300

Winston Peter's isn't so much an argument for ending MMP as for introducing an upper voting age limit.

Paul Campbell

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:23:06 +1300

Thinking about it more I think that party lists are giant red herring – you can look at them before the election and decide if you like them – and if you're voting for a party you trust them and the list they produce, if you didn't vote for them…

Public Address

Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:23:06 +1300

Discussion from blog post.