Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Referendum '11: counting the votes

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 10:00:23 +1300

If however, by some horrid chance, a criminal, fascist aligned organization grew to any appreciable size in NZ, it would be perfectly possible for them to steal the ballots for an entire electorate, and work out how every individual in an electorate voted.

But I already told Act how I…

Sacha

Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:47:15 +1300

Thanks to an enlightened music department head, our full school assembly sang that number. Emma is familiar with the hall in question. Awesome.

Hebe

Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:03:42 +1300

Because I am deeply shallow, every time I read the headline to this post, the juke-box starts up:

They're counting the votes 2, 3, 4, 5,
I'm feeling fear my job's on th'line 6,7,8,9
I'm just wishing that all were mine

tussock

Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:34:37 +1300

Note that list MPs can also jump parties, as when the Alliance MPs all left the Alliance to betray their basic goals and policies. So it's not that National gets it's list places, it's that those MPs from the list are now parliamentarians, and will stay that way until they…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 21:12:02 +1300

That’s almost a FAQ, and I think Graeme covered it off a while ago.

No. Candidates are candidates for the party they listed on their nomination form. The list numbers are computed when the final results are in and never change.

It doesn’t matter if Banks was a secret member…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:26:41 +1300

John Banks is Dr Jekyll...
If Banks resigns and re-stands and re-wins Epsom for the Conservative Party
and this is how it was supposed to work...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3FCpnIVfdI&feature=related

Steve Withers

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 18:18:21 +1300

The law relating to the electoral referendum looks like it was tailor-made for fiddling the result. The usual Election Day protections (scrutineers) and the multiple-voting protection were done away with….so someone could dump a few thousand marked ballots into the process and who would know?

I frankly do not trust…

Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:48:36 +1300

Hypotheticals...If Banks resigns and re-stands and re-wins Epsom for the Conservative Party, would that mean he'd activate their 2.8% share of the vote?

If Rodney Hide had resigned from parliament during the last term would ACT have lost all their seats since they were well under the 5% party vote…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:12:50 +1300

One of the big problems with STV voting for local body elections is that they’re send in by mail

I see the main problem as the way postal voting makes the secret ballot optional. With ballot boxes, you can't show someone else your vote even if you want to, or…

BenWilson

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:25:49 +1300

Knowing if someone voted is a whole lot easier – they're crossed off the roll. But not how they voted.

It's not easy, but it must be possible, otherwise, upon being challenged, they could simply lie about who they voted for. Then if they were found to be invalid, they…

Trish Janes

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 08:13:32 +1300

Emma Hart is being picky. You just needed to say that "scutineers" are the party people sitting there like stuffed chocks to keep everything honest. It is the electoral staff who make a note linking the person to the numbered voting paper is case it needs to be retrieved. It…

Rachel Prosser

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 08:02:09 +1300

It would be easy,, in theory, to take a vote, and find out who cast it. Take the sticker off, find the ballot pad, and then look it up on the certified roll.

However, you won't normally want to do that. And they'll be stored in different parts of the…

Tim Hannah

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 07:11:26 +1300

There would be no point in a challenge if it was impossible to know which way the person had voted.

You can play the numbers, maybe one of Reg Boorman's people had talked politics with your cousin on the train and thought he probably wasn't Labour, maybe they knew he…

Paul Campbell

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 05:56:05 +1300

One of the big problems with STV voting for local body elections is that they're send in by mail and, in Dunedin's case at least, they are counted somewhere else (Christchurch over a period of weeks) – this makes scrutineering practically impossible and certainly not free (for the scrutineers who…

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 01:11:35 +1300

There would be no point in a challenge if it was impossible to know which way the person had voted.

You brought up Creech v. Boorman. I'm sure Graeme will correct me if I'm wrong, but both parties challenged the eligibility of around 200 voters in toto to vote in…

BenWilson

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 00:36:10 +1300

Well don't get tooooo cocky about it. After voting on Saturday, I absentmindedly walked to the ballet box behind all the other people who were voting. I could easily have looked at the way 6 random strangers were voting. I didn't, of course, why would I give a stuff?

You…

BenWilson

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 00:24:36 +1300

The only reason I was sure that it is possible to track people down (without knowing the mechanism) is that a cousin of mine who lived with my family for a while was in the Wairarapa when the famous one-vote majority for Wyatt Creech was returned, and was challenged in…

Emma Hart

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 00:11:12 +1300

it makes casual prying near impossible

You have to have the ballot paper. What kind of "casual prying" involves stealing ballot papers?

BenWilson

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 00:09:45 +1300

That it's not possible to work out who you voted for is one of the basic corner-stones of our electoral system. And in New Zealand, thankfully, we weight this more highly than preventing possible voter fraud.

But you just described exactly how to find out. Peel off the sticker on…

Emma Hart

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:51:41 +1300

If it is not possible to work out who I voted for

The scrutineers…

Rachel Prosser

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:37:26 +1300

Also, by the by, one of the useful things about a late election is that counting the votes is a useful job for students who have finished studying.

Rachel Prosser

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:35:39 +1300

but I found the decision in respect of scrutineers to be the more confounding. They’re free!

So what's the position with scruitneers – not permitted?

And what about opening special vote declarations etc – scrutineers allowed there?

Rachel Prosser

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:33:50 +1300

Also, the margin of error for double votes in a referendum – which is counted nationwide – was such that a tie is more unlikely.

Statisticians may come to the rescue on that.

BTW – who knows the probability of a tie with 14593 votes each?

Rachel Prosser

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:32:32 +1300

Did anyone cast a referendum vote without at the same time casting an election vote where the usual protections applied?

The only way this could happen would be if they chose not to vote with the first paper and smuggled it out without the polling staff picking up on it.…

Sacha

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:46:19 +1300

Referenda don't necessarily happen at the same time as elections, though, do they?

No, but it did this time. Hence one layer of verification might be enough when the impact of any errors/fraud in the referendum would be way more diluted than for electorate votes.

Chris Waugh

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 18:24:25 +1300

Did anyone cast a referendum vote without at the same time casting an election vote where the usual protections applied?

Referenda don't necessarily happen at the same time as elections, though, do they? I seem to remember one in the mid-90s about (wikipedia to the rescue!) the fire service happening…

BenWilson

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:29:42 +1300

Just to nit-pick, they bloody do not. They're allowed to write down the page and line number of the voter on the electoral roll. They're certainly not entitled to know the number of your ballot paper.

Can I then ask how it could possibly be feasible to challenge anyone's vote?…

Emma Hart

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:30:45 +1300

The ballots get numbered, so there’s a tiny printing cost, and the scrutineers write the number down for each person that gets a ballot

Just to nit-pick, they bloody do not. They're allowed to write down the page and line number of the voter on the electoral roll. They're certainly…

Sacha

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:23:16 +1300

Why did they dispense with such a basic protection?

Did anyone cast a referendum vote without at the same time casting an election vote where the usual protections applied?

BenWilson

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:15:17 +1300

What would the expense have actually been? The ballots get numbered, so there's a tiny printing cost, and the scrutineers write the number down for each person that gets a ballot, which is free (but might take a little bit of time). Is there something else I'm missing?

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:59:23 +1300

I noticed this when I was voting, and it freake dme out. Why did they dispense with such a basic protection?

Money. They considered the expense was not worth the benefit. Dual votes will still be caught, so most of the disincentives (e.g. prison) remain, and the likelihood of a…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:54:39 +1300

(Although I guess it would be hard to distinguish between someone voting twice in their own name or someone using a false name).

That's what police detectives are for!

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:54:07 +1300

And do the miscreants get prosecuted (I've never seen such a case reported)?

They do get investigated and prosecuted. Sometimes the dual votes aren't corrupt: often people who advance vote from a resthome, and whose kids pick them up on voting day to vote in person, who may be confused…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:21:15 +1300

How many double votes get found in a typical election? And do the miscreants get prosecuted (I've never seen such a case reported)? (Although I guess it would be hard to distinguish between someone voting twice in their own name or someone using a false name).

Lucy Stewart

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 07:00:36 +1300

It is sloppy and not ideal practice but I suppose one would have to either cast a second vote in ones own name (thus cancelling out all ones votes except the referendum vote?) or use someone else’s on the electoral roll. To have any significant effect on the final result…

HenryB

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:43:40 +1300

It is sloppy and not ideal practice but I suppose one would have to either cast a second vote in ones own name (thus cancelling out all ones votes except the referendum vote?) or use someone else's on the electoral roll. To have any significant effect on the final result…

Lucy Stewart

Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:23:11 +1300

These may be special votes from people who aren’t on the printed electoral roll (because they’re on the unpublished one, or they enrolled after the rolls were closed for printing), but they also include votes cast within that electorate in respect of another electorate

This seems particularly likely to be…

Idiot Savant

Sun, 27 Nov 2011 23:50:16 +1300

The count of referendum votes is a lot easier than the count of general election ballots: the usual protections of traceable ballot papers weren't imposed

I noticed this when I was voting, and it freake dme out. Why did they dispense with such a basic protection?

Tristan

Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:46:09 +1300

I worked on the specials desk at a polling booth in Auckland Central and we received about 150 specials and 64 of those were for Auckland Central the rest were people from out side the electorate. Some has only just moved to the electorate others were visiting Auckland. And quite…

Michael Homer

Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:46:01 +1300

Yes (almost). They're included in the total counts, but get listed as zero on the booth-by-booth breakdown. It's "fewer than 6" though, so places with exactly six votes do appear.

Steve Curtis

Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:40:14 +1300

I have heard that for polling places with 6 or less votes cast, the results aren't released so that anonymity can be preserved . Is this true ?

Public Address

Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:40:14 +1300

Discussion from blog post.