Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Questions, but no answers, with thanks to David Simon for opening my eyes

Tom Semmens

Wed, 27 Mar 2019 08:41:44 +1300

When I was younger and did a spot of deer stalking we would kit up in our swanndri bushshirts and shorts, grab our trusty bolt action rifles plus 20 rounds and hike into the ranges to perhaps bag ourselves a deer, but mainly to get away and eat simple food…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:37:12 +1300

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99390271/phil-quin-apologises-for-calling-green-mp-golriz-ghahraman-a-genocide-denier

But as Jonathan Swift said back in 1710:
Besides, as the vilest Writer has his Readers, so the greatest Liar has his Believers; and it often happens, that if a Lie be believ’d only for an Hour, it has done its Work, and there is no farther occasion for…

Shaun Scott

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:58:07 +1300

Thank you. What I feel, but more eloquently and clearly expressed .

Intelligence. Kindness. Compromise. All essential in political discourse ( and human relationships)- and sadly lacking in the"gotcha!", Trumpian, click-bait driven MSM environment in which we live.

Adam H

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 20:58:08 +1300

I was hoping someone would ask about the Saddam Hussein reference.

Because that's the thing: it results in a war that no-one wins in the end.

Tamara

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 15:00:13 +1300

absolutely spot on!

Brent Jackson

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:58:23 +1300

Hear, hear.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:40:14 +1300

play the game

Let me say this clearly.

The job of governing the people of New Zealand is NOT A GAME.

I appreciate that generations of grammer school boys have tried to simplify the difficult, complex and important task of developing law and policy that improves the quality of life…

Brent Jackson

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:35:47 +1300

(Ian quoting) He teaches me all the time that kindness is more important than honesty

Well he's got things "more important than honesty" down pat. If only kindness got a look in.

He's being kind to Farrar. Much more important than honest reporting.

linger

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:55:28 +1300

age gap is quite informative of his views on womeni.e. happy about “young women getting ahead” as long as it’s his?
(I apologise profusely for that mental image.)

linger

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:47:49 +1300

the way you have to play the game if you want to winNo, because if you play their game — instead of changing the rules — you still lose, and so does everyone else.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 10:19:01 +1300

Haven't got a legalism to stand on...
Here is a particularly spittle-flecked diatribe!
It's as if some bony little psychic finger has been jabbing at my chest.
It's hopeless for Ghahraman and fellow lawyers to argue that "human rights lawyers" might defend as well as prosecute the bad guys.…

Tom Semmens

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:26:13 +1300

you say that like it’s a bad thing

sigh

It isn't a bad thing, it just isn't the way you have to play the game if you want to win.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:10:54 +1300

scrupulous high minded adult in the room

you say that like it's a bad thing

sigh

Moz

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:10:46 +1300

(Ian quoting) He teaches me all the time that kindness is more important than honesty

Well he's got things "more important than honesty" down pat. If only kindness got a look in.

Tom Semmens

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 07:39:47 +1300

Which is weird when ya think that Soper is 64 and his partner Heather du Plessis-Allan is 32 (younger than the PM even!) –

If you ask me that sort of age gap is quite informative of his views on women.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 07:06:36 +1300

it was Soper who was first out of the blocks in mainstreaming a Farrar smear and I don’t think it is a coincidence the first target is a young, successful woman.
His sneering tone and belittling line of questioning to Jacinda Ardern when she was made PM got him effectively…

Tom Semmens

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 07:00:08 +1300

Another day and the white male bully boy pile on continues – the dispicible Soper says in the hysterical rag he writes for Well a series of photos have been sent to me, one showing her posing alone with a former pop singer called Simon Bikindi

Sent to you by…

Ben Austin

Wed, 29 Nov 2017 00:21:23 +1300

Would be interesting to do a proper search through newspaper/etc records from the era. I mean I do remember it being widely reported – but did newspapers back then have as much as opinion as they do now? I don't recall

simon g

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 20:59:00 +1300

Oh, and just to note ...

You know how assorted media old-timers have been complaining about the Twitter pile-ons? (Van Beymen, Garner, Soper, even the ODT).

Well, there's one going on right now. But she's not being attacked by the "intolerant PC lefties" crowd. It's the other lot. And so…

simon g

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 19:01:31 +1300

I'd be more willing to take Soper & co seriously if they had actually given a rat's arse about the genocide in Rwanda while it was actually happening. When it was, you know, news.

The 1990's are effectively beyond the reach of Google, but my memory still functions. I was a…

Tom Semmens

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 17:28:57 +1300

It seems Human Rights doesn’t include the right to a defence
It is the process of Justice being served not the criminals crimes.

You know what has really got me hopping mad about this story though? It isn’t that Farrar and Kiwiblog is back into it’s dirty politics smear mode.…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 16:57:40 +1300

Tell that to David Farrar, who seems to think smearing Golriz Ghahraman is all in a fair days work for a mainstream right wing jerk.
It seems Human Rights doesn't include the right to a defence
It is the process of Justice being served not the criminals crimes.

Wasn't it…

linger

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 16:51:52 +1300

Why should that be at all surprising? The right wants to reduce participation in politics: all the more power for the 1%. Which is all the more reason the left should NOT blindly copy their playbook.

Tom Semmens

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 16:23:36 +1300

However, if only the visceral and tribal elements are emphasised, leading to polarisation, and disaffection and alienation of voters, democracy fails.
Tricky, innit.

Tell that to David Farrar, who seems to think smearing Golriz Ghahraman is all in a fair days work for a mainstream right wing jerk.

linger

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 16:06:20 +1300

However, if only the visceral and tribal elements are emphasised, leading to polarisation, and disaffection and alienation of voters, democracy fails.
Tricky, innit.

Tom Semmens

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:55:37 +1300

That way you lose. Because that response is exactly the same childish retaliation as National’s questions.

Have you seen the manufactured smear on Golriz Ghahraman? Do you really think National, arseholes like Farrar and media enablers like Soper and all the rest are interested in playing along in your…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 10:24:53 +1300

I call it the Saddam Hussein defence.

Then you can take delight in either watching them try and digest, or pointing out when they miss salient points. Either way you win.

That way you lose. Because that response is exactly the same childish retaliation as National's questions.

Bart Janssen

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 10:23:29 +1300

I can't fix what happened in past Parliaments, but I can try to make sure it doesn't happen again!

Your post did not read like that was your intent. Instead it read as if you were supporting tit-for-tat reprisal as a behaviour appropriate and acceptable for MPs.

Your suggestion of…

Adam H

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 10:13:29 +1300

The traditional response to what is apparently an attempt by National to expose lack of experience is to drown them in information. I call it the Saddam Hussein defence.

Then you can take delight in either watching them try and digest, or pointing out when they miss salient points. Either…

Tom Semmens

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 07:36:45 +1300

The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Farrar sewer is back pumping it’s shit, and Barry Soper has got his old man lips firmly stretched around the outfall pipe as he continues his misogynistic war on the young women of this government.

Paul Campbell

Tue, 28 Nov 2017 00:49:11 +1300

Really this a great chance for our wonderful new fresh lefty government (yay!) to call National's bluff, to overreach themselves and push for an OIA that is so open that National cringe and wont support it!

(of course the racing industry will still have to have some secrecy carved out…

Katharine Moody

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 23:52:32 +1300

Agree – this is a great little site;

https://fyi.org.nz/

Run by volunteers – expanding and improving it under a government initiative (but retaining it as the politically neutral/volunteer run operation) would be great.

David Clemens

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:26:19 +1300

Clare Curran has recently been appointed Minister for Open Government. She should take the opportunity to propose to Cabinet the automatic release of ministerial schedules
As Open Government Minister Curran may need to look no further than her own hood for freedom of information inspiration, at Dunedin City Council.
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/your-council/official-information/lgoima-requests…

WH

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:32:53 +1300

It all seems so unnecessary. It's been a month and the Opposition's strategery is already getting out of control. Let us all take a moment to think about the fate of the lockbox. Perhaps each of us could offer a short prayer.

8791 questions in a single month... More than…

simon g

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:52:33 +1300

There's a pretty fundamental difference between Labour playing silly buggers in opposition and National doing the same now. Labour attacked the government on its performance, not its existence. The legitimacy of the 2008-17 National-led government was not in question. Not even by the most blinkered Labour hack.

But the narrative…

Raymond A Francis

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 17:02:52 +1300

Of course you don’t Tom but let’s not forget that you called for utu against any journalist who didn’t report the news as you saw it a couple of elections back.
There is a word for that!
And one for people who don’t see the hypocrisy of their own statements.

Katharine Moody

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 17:01:39 +1300

Yes, I appreciate that is your perspective, Graeme but I think the form/volume of these 'fishing' questions (be they put by whatever person from whatever party in whatever term past or present) are what is unreasonable. Questions put need to be on matters of substance for the inquiry to be…

linger

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:31:28 +1300

(Thanks, Katherine!)
looks like it :)
Indeed – most closely from Bridges himself, that naughty boy…
… but still, they shouldn’t be lowering themselves to his level of testiness/testeeness/testeness.

[Note that the current government used a broader-scope “narrow the question” nonreply, rather than the narrower-scope “focus on a specific issue…

Sam M

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:24:08 +1300

I'm sure you're technically right, but I am still firmly enjoying the honeymoon period with a Labour led government and am not yet ready to give them a hard time about the way they stoush with National. Especially while they are still sorting out their offices and ministries.

Plus, National…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:17:14 +1300

Here’s some examples of how National dealt with the same type of questioning from WP in the last term

And if Labour had objected, there's a good chance I'd have written a blog post supporting them.

I can't fix what happened in past Parliaments, but I can try to make…

Sacha

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:38:42 +1300

I wonder whether that reply is actually a copy of one they received whilst in opposition.

looks like it :)

Katharine Moody

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:04:45 +1300

Medical appointments are not ministerial.

I agree. But if you require the diaries of Ministers' ministerial appointments to be automatically provided – what you'll get is a daily account of time with gaps and redactions everywhere – and then the gaps/redactions will become the subject of speculation/criticism.

Here's some examples…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:46:35 +1300

I'm sure Mallard and some of National's old school will have their battered copies of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals on hand (it's always interesting seeing what books they have on their office shelves)....
Sounds like they are using rules #4 ("Make the enemy live up to its…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:35:38 +1300

I'm unfamiliar with the rules that govern parliamentary procedure but would have thought that asking 6,000 odd questions is something akin to the common law concept of abuse of process.
Sounds like a 'meat-zone' DDoS attack to me...
[[ http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/essentialguide/How-to-attack-DDoS-threats-with-a-solid-defense-plan| "Delay is the deadliest form of denial," said British historian…

mark taslov

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:30:47 +1300

abuse

in case it's not already been posted

In July 2010 Labour asked 8791 questions in a single month.

More than 7000 of those questions came from MP Trevor Mallard alone.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:01:53 +1300

Although the sentiment regarding open governance is right – the practical application is fraught with exceptions. Diarised medical appointments, meetings with ones personal lawyers over say, a property transaction, etc. etc.

Medical appointments are not ministerial.

Katharine Moody

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:26:14 +1300

Clare Curran has recently been appointed Minister for Open Government. She should take the opportunity to propose to Cabinet the automatic release of ministerial schedules.

Although the sentiment regarding open governance is right – the practical application is fraught with exceptions. Diarised medical appointments, meetings with ones personal lawyers over…

matthew

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:18:10 +1300

Are the National Party doing this because they believe that either they or the public have a right to a better quality of information about what the Government is doing, I don't believe so. Do they think they will get better quality of information by doing so, again I don't…

WH

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:17:39 +1300

I'm unfamiliar with the rules that govern parliamentary procedure but would have thought that asking 6,000 odd questions is something akin to the common law concept of abuse of process.

The manoeuvre seems intended to tie up resources that would otherwise be used to enact the new Government's agenda.

Tony Meyer

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 12:28:59 +1300

this is extremely petty behaviour from the National party.

What exactly would have been the right response? The Government doesn't automatically provide the information, and the small volume, broad, questions were denied. Other than the (petty looking) barrage of high volume, specific, questions, how could they get the information? Are…

matthew

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:41:33 +1300

Whether or not they have a right to information and whether or not the information should or shouldn't be public in the first place, this is extremely petty behaviour from the National party. Makes them look like sore losers with nothing better to do than play games. In particular given…

linger

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:38:20 +1300

I can’t immediately find an example of exactly the same answer being used by National. So the boilerplate responses may be more simply a tit-for-tat strategy to cope with (perceived) boilerplate questions. I can see some point to that, in that providing actual answers takes considerably longer than copy-pasting text…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 10:19:58 +1300

This is not a war.

These are not children.

Reprisal is not a valid form of government.

I get that our governmental system has developed a culture largely based on behaviours acceptable to lawyers and 18th century aristocrats. But such a culture does no good to anyone.

They are there…

Moz

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:08:38 +1300

I wonder whether that reply is actually a copy of one they received whilst in opposition.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 07:53:15 +1300

I appreciate the self-referentiality of (presumably) the word “redacted” being redacted here, but I suspect it wasn’t intentional?

Withheld. Thanks :-)

Tom Semmens

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 07:12:05 +1300

After nine long years of insufferably arrogant and unaccountable National party rule, I don't give a shit about their whining about getting a dose of their own medicine.

linger

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 03:58:03 +1300

While the explicit content of some meetings, or some briefings may be properly [ sic : word missing], the existence of the meetings themselves will not,I appreciate the self-referentiality of (presumably) the word “redacted” being redacted here, but I suspect it wasn’t intentional?

The use of exactly the same stock…

Public Address

Mon, 27 Nov 2017 03:58:03 +1300

Discussion from blog post.