Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Presuming innocence

DexterX

Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:36:47 +1200

John Banks is the kind of guy who will adhere to the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit.

Banks doesn't have a problem with the law, neither does Brash, and Key doesn't have a problem with people who don't have a problem with the law.

Banks has been…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:48:12 +1200

John Banks is the kind of guy who will adhere to the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit. He has been ignoring "The Spirit" for many years...
Archie Banks was a notorious career criminal and Banks' mother Kitty was an alcoholic (Mayor Banks does not drink) and…

merc

Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:48:26 +1200

The man is seriously proclaiming that the Police have 'cleared' him. Another downside of them (the Police) behaving like a judge and jury.
It's a Police political feature not a bug.

Sacha

Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:23:04 +1200

Heard a sound bite today from Dishonest John banks – the gist of it all was that his innocence had been proven, that there was no wrongdoing on his part and he had been exonerated.

I just want to emphasise that this part is totally true, lest innocent readers believe…

WH

Wed, 01 Aug 2012 08:42:33 +1200

Should readers be concerned that the Police have breached John Banks’ human rights? Or should they just be concerned about the direction of the trend?

I think it’s accepted that Police should emphasise the preliminary nature of their conclusions when commenting on investigations. On the other hand, making an arrest…

DexterX

Tue, 31 Jul 2012 23:17:54 +1200

Heard a sound bite today from Dishonest John banks – the gist of it all was that his innocence had been proven, that there was no wrongdoing on his part and he had been exonerated.

Exxonerated in the sense of the Exxon Valdez traveling through Prince William Sound.

Banks also…

Phil fryer

Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:16:17 +1200

If ya trying to make me/us feel sorry poor old JB can't defend himself, yea right,
perhaps Operation 7, & Dotcom,where NZ Police where lead by the nose into trouble,
has made them feel they need to "justify their actions, instead of the odium of serving officers, & the public, to "make"…

Euan Mason

Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:15:11 +1200

"Well, the Police are not charging Mr Banks. He will never be given the opportunity to argue his case. This is, in effect, a smear Mr Banks will never have the opportunity to defend in court."

It would be nice if we had a mechanism where in such circumstances someone…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:00:51 +1200

Shame that Ambrose didn't record Banks chatting about that donation deal with our esteemed PM. Oh, wait, perhaps he did. We will never know, the recording quality was awful.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:27:06 +1200

I suspect our reactions might be coloured by whether or not the police got it right.

That's my suspicion too. Then I asked myself whether my different reactions to the two cases was actually justified, given the role of the police, the fact they make mistakes, and the fact neither…

Peter Green

Tue, 31 Jul 2012 01:11:03 +1200

I suspect our reactions might be coloured by whether or not the police got it right. With Bradley Ambrose it looked like they were smearing an innocent man, whereas Banks is quite obviously guilty, so it's a bit harder to feel any sympathy for him.

Angus Robertson

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:50:36 +1200

There are other high profile examples. Following their investigation into Darren Hughes Police announced that "After this careful consideration, the allegations do not reach the evidential threshold required to bring charges. As a result, no charges will be brought against Mr Hughes." Nothing particularly concerning about this, but following a…

Sacha

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:38:47 +1200

Len's conduct

Used anonymising Trusts as used to be allowed for central govt elections.

Sacha

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:37:58 +1200

By announcing to the world that they believed Ambrose was a criminal, the Police reached conclusions about matters that were not in their purview

Certainly did. Not their job to judge a case – and I support any changes to fix what seems to be a slide in that direction.

Matthew Poole

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:48:15 +1200

I believe everyone is also in agreement that the law should be changed so that what Len Brown did is also illegal in the future.

???
What'd I miss about Len's conduct?

Matthew Poole

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:38:17 +1200

One difference I see between this and Cuppa-gate is that a key issue in the latter was whether the conversation that Ambrose recorded was, in the legal sense, private. There’s pretty much no question there that Banks knew he’d got this money from these people, the issue is only that…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:35:06 +1200

It’s telling that everyone agrees the law should be amended to ensure that what Banks did is illegal going forward.

I believe everyone is also in agreement that the law should be changed so that what Len Brown did is also illegal in the future.

WH

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:52:26 +1200

I’m sorry if I’m shooting the messenger, it’s good to be reminded of these things in unsympathetic cases.

I wonder whether the known facts and narrow grounds of defence make it hard for the Police to discuss the case without casting Banks in a bad light. It’s an odd situation…

Gareth Ward

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:24:29 +1200

From my layman's read, the press release and letter (haven't listened to audio) lay out the factual basis of their investigation. We can infer from that basis that a successful case may have been bought under Section (2) but I think it's a bit much to say the Police are…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:57:44 +1200

John Banks was advising a businessman on how to make anonymous donations to his fringe political party, deliberating circumventing our election laws in the process.

This was about John Banks' mayoral campaign, not the ACT Party.

Your takeaway from the decision not to prosecute is that the Police have infringed…

WH

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:44:42 +1200

Your takeaway from the decision not to prosecute is that the Police have infringed Banks’ right to be presumed innocent? I’m not sure that’s a plausible interpretation of what happened here, bearing in mind that the actus reus of the offence was essentially admitted. Which part of the letter to…

merc

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:28:13 +1200

Ah thank you, yes I read the Law Commission report in part, a lot has been done since 1999, and in the main the system seems to me to work.
Perhaps my issue is that one cannot legislate around political interference. The obvious one about it possibly not being in…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:20:44 +1200

NZ, correct me if I am wrong has a unique situation in this regard and that of their ability to hire private lawyers for enacting public prosecutions.

Not unique. The Crown Prosecution Service in the United Kingdom regularly briefs (private) barristers to prosecute cases.

In New Zealand, each region (I…

merc

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 08:17:28 +1200

Police felt it necessary to publicly state that they had no concerns about the validity of complaint.
The Police become political pawns with these acts of publicly stated feelings. NZ, correct me if I am wrong has a unique situation in this regard and that of their ability to hire…

Public Address

Mon, 30 Jul 2012 08:17:28 +1200

Discussion from blog post.