Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: On the Force of Arms https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Lewis Holden https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=40480#post40480 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=40480#post40480 Israel's parliament, which is largely based on Westminster traditions, elects the Israeli president by a 2/3rds majority, as does Turkey and Iraq. Italy requires a 2/3rds majority for the first round, but a simple majority can be accepted for the last.

I'm not so sure direct election erodes parliamentary traditions…

]]> Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:21:36 +1300 Ben Austin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=40266#post40266 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=40266#post40266 Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:08:53 +1300 Lewis Holden https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=40051#post40051 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=40051#post40051 could be appointed, but they will more than likely be elected either by Parliament or directly (these are the two models proposed by Keith Locke's Bill). That automatically implies more independence from the Prime Minister than is the case under the status quo;… ]]> Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:12:26 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39917#post39917 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39917#post39917 I'd assume that any government that was trying to mount a constitutional coup would start by putting the Governor-Generalship in a "safe" pair of hands.

Just to focus on the signing of legislation, there is a long list of constitutional changes that have been passed by a simple parliamentary majority…

]]> Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:11:53 +1300 Ben Austin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39904#post39904 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39904#post39904 The Whitlam Incident should alone be enough reason to seriously look at reforming or replacing the current system, or so I believe.

I wonder if the Herald's Should We Become A Republic series will bring it up? Speaking of which, what do we think about that?

]]> Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:30:44 +1300 Graeme Edgeler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39902#post39902 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39902#post39902

Graeme,

Surprised that you didn't mention the Whitlam Govt in Australia

I was trying to focus on situations where I think the intervention of the Governor-General would, almost inarguably, be justified. I could come up with any number of examples where the Governor-General either shouldn't, or perhaps shouldn't, intervene. You…

]]> Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:54:13 +1300 Graeme Edgeler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39901#post39901 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39901#post39901

you talk of the Nuremberg Defense but interestingly you don't question the Nuremberg Prosecution and its legitamcy. Which seems to have a well known detractor.

Robert Taft?

Absolutely, but the rejection of the Nuremberg defence applies in domestic law too, irrespective of whether the trials themselves were legitimate.

We don't…

]]> Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:48:18 +1300 Shep Cheyenne https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39899#post39899 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39899#post39899 Just to quibble ... you talk of the Nuremberg Defense but interestingly you don't question the Nuremberg Prosecution and its legitamcy. Which seems to have a well known detractor.
Chen of Chen Palmer & Partners a favourite of morning TV a wee while back infamously said something to the effect of…

]]> Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:16:17 +1300 Rochelle Hume https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39866#post39866 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39866#post39866

What would it take for me to want to rise up? Or you?

An empty stomach always helps in an uprising...Is that a recession I see around the corner???

]]> Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:05:41 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39851#post39851 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39851#post39851 On Parihaka:

New Zealand's path to independence has been evolutionary and the nature of its institutions have changed with the years. In 1881 NZ was a (mostly) self-governing colony, not an independent state. Sir Arthur Gordon, the Governor, was an appointed functionary of the British Imperial government and expected to…

]]> Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:22:54 +1300 Lyndon Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39840#post39840 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39840#post39840 Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:35:09 +1300 Lyndon Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39831#post39831 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39831#post39831 On the question of taking up arms, a question (maybe more ethical than constitutional) that needs to be asked is what outcome you might reasonably expect.

Will it work? Will you plan succeed, or fail and make things worse? Will a sucessful outcome be worth the messy transition? Some of…

]]> Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:35:08 +1300 Susannah Shepherd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39794#post39794 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39794#post39794 I can think of another example of bypassing the GG in our history, although I am dredging my memory here and may get some of the details wrong.

There is some evidence that the invasion of Parihaka was deferred because government had some doubts as to whether the Governor would…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:33:27 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39776#post39776 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39776#post39776 I was inspired by listening to Billy Bragg the other week.

One of his points was that, at the Battle of Naseby, the rights of Parliament versus the English King was settled, but the rights of Parliament versus the people have never been so settled.

Two things arise from that:…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:11:20 +1300 Michael Homer https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39770#post39770 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39770#post39770

[...] if a Governor-General was dismissed, then the role would revert temporarily to the Administrator, whom the PM and the Queen cannot dismiss.

It might only take a few days (or hours), but while the new Governor-General is in the process of being appointed, I'd like to think the Chief…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:46:33 +1300 Emma Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39763#post39763 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39763#post39763

It was only a cheap $9.95 iron from the Warehouse. It's amazing to think that for only $9.95 they can afford to sell you an iron AND a piece of hilarious double-entendre. How do they make a profit?

Heh, well I hear writers get paid shite...

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:40:22 +1300 Andrew Geddis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39745#post39745 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39745#post39745 Hi Graeme,

The story you recount about the "refusal to sign an Order in Council" is covered in Philip Joseph's text at page 718 – the Gov. Gen. from 1941-46, Sir Cyril Newall, delayed signing a govt. recommendation to commute sentances of flogging, insisting on legislation instead. Apparently he also…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:44:59 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39739#post39739 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39739#post39739 Graeme,

Surprised that you didn't mention the Whitlam Govt in Australia (er, wiki entry when it comes to GG using reserve powers to dismiss a government.

A pretty relevant example, as Australia's setup in this regard is similar to ours.

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:59:56 +1300 David Haywood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39738#post39738 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39738#post39738 Emma Hart wrote:

A phrase which can still mean two entirely different things. How entertaining/traumatic is watching you iron?

It was only a cheap $9.95 iron from the Warehouse. It's amazing to think that for only $9.95 they can afford to sell you an iron AND a piece of hilarious…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:59:33 +1300 Grant Dexter https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39728#post39728 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39728#post39728 Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:01:22 +1300 Emma Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39727#post39727 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39727#post39727

On the other hand, I also own an iron with the words 'remove clothing before ironing' emblazoned on the side — so I guess it's the same principle.

A phrase which can still mean two entirely different things. How entertaining/traumatic is watching you iron?

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:56:22 +1300 Graeme Edgeler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39725#post39725 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39725#post39725 DPF – yes, in all likelihood the Monarch would never fail to follow the advice of the PM regarding the dismissal of a Governor-General, but if a Governor-General was dismissed, then the role would revert temporarily to the Administrator, whom the PM and the Queen cannot dismiss.

It might only…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:53:21 +1300 Paul Rowe https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39724#post39724 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39724#post39724

This has always seemed kind of stupidly obvious to me. On the other hand, I also own an iron with the words 'remove clothing before ironing' emblazoned on the side — so I guess it's the same principle.

And it goes to show you can't be too careful. I once…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:53:00 +1300 David Haywood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39723#post39723 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39723#post39723 Matthew Poole wrote:

... the parliamentary term limit as set in the Constitution Act is entrenched by the Electoral Act with a 75% Parliamentary majority or simple electorate majority. Can't remember if that's single- or double-entrenchment.

Actually, I don't think the AND/OR parliamentary vs. referendum-type amendment is what is meant…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:47:47 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39715#post39715 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39715#post39715 Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:17:00 +1300 Eddie Clark https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39711#post39711 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39711#post39711 DPF:

There is no necessary link between a NZ head of State and increased independence. There may be between an independently elected president and an appointed Governor-General, but republicanism by no means necessarily involves an elected head of state. It would be perfectly possible to hold an election for Governor-General…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:59:38 +1300 Eddie Clark https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39710#post39710 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39710#post39710 Look at your shiny new masthead, Graeme! And to think a few short years ago we were sitting in class together listening to Tony rant about rights. Ah, the nostalgia!

Anyway, interesting post.

To address Raymond's point first, we already have a relatively well-written Bill of Rights, but it isn't…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:55:36 +1300 DPF https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39708#post39708 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39708#post39708 Good piece Graeme. I agree largely on the examples you give of where you might want the GG to intervene.

What you didn't cover though is that if the PM gets any hint the GG may refuse assent, they can get the GG sacked instantly. A GG involved in day…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:53:16 +1300 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39700#post39700 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39700#post39700

And I only mucked up one piece of HTML...

You did beautifully. Welcome aboard.

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:59:20 +1300 Raymond A Francis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39699#post39699 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39699#post39699 Interesting
Surely a well written Bill of Rights Act would give us, the citizens basic rights that the parliment would infringe at its own risk
And that will include a chance to kick the bugers out ever three years
During the war did the coalition government try to extend the…

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:53:34 +1300 Graeme Edgeler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39696#post39696 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39696#post39696 Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:25:20 +1300 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39695#post39695 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-on-the-force-of-arms/?p=39695#post39695 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:25:18 +1300