Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: On Burglary, or: Dropping the Ball

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:21:25 +1300

A partial result – the select committee has recommended that the bit of the law that would allow the executive to amend references to "crime" in statutes by regulation should be removed. If there are any such references remaining, it will be up to Parliament to make the amendments itself.…

Keir Leslie

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:18:27 +1300

Or, possibly, because the laws on rape & armed robbery are quite old, and therefore have comparatively low maximum sentences, whereas the laws on hacking are new and therefore have quite high maximum sentences.

Kumara Republic

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:28:50 +1300

Overseas, hackers are already threatened with longer sentences than rapists and armed robbers. I sometimes wonder if it's because rape and robbery barely affect the Inner Party/One Percenters, where hacking is one of the few things that genuinely make them brown their pants.

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 03:28:21 +1300

I’ve got another curly one for you Graeme.

About 2 months ago I caught the neighbours kids throwing fruit from a tree on their property at my house and a neighbours house.

Does a thrown object that crosses your property boundary, causing damage, equal a held crowbar that crosses a…

Yamis

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:21:46 +1300

Your front lawn isn't an enclosed yard, so no.
Enclosed yards are usually places like building sites, or semi-industrial places that get locked at the end of the day, if you can just stroll up a driveway, I don't believe it counts.

I've got another curly one for you Graeme.…

Yamis

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:14:04 +1300

What if there is a gate at the end of the drive? Should domestic properties close their gate and hang a sign saying "closed for soliciting, trespassers will be prosecuted for burglary". Quite tempting :)

To get to our front door somebody has to walk up our drive, go up…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 21:42:15 +1300

But that could now be classed as burglary?

Your front lawn isn't an enclosed yard, so no.

Enclosed yards are usually places like building sites, or semi-industrial places that get locked at the end of the day, if you can just stroll up a driveway, I don't believe it counts.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:02:56 +1300

What's the deal with people knocking on your front door

Implied license, I think.

Yamis

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:50:16 +1300

What's the deal with people knocking on your front door to raise money for charity, flog some home ventilation system, or borrow some sugar? They've all clearly entered your property without permission.

I'm not quite getting the burglary vs trespass difference.

Could somebody freedom camping on the edge of somebody's…

BenWilson

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:14:43 +1300

Trespassing and stealing a swim, and indecent exposure! Death's too good for him!

Will de Cleene

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:30:07 +1300

Trespass to what? A field, or someone’s front lawn are unlikely to count as an enclosed yard.

But jumping over someone's fence to skinny-dip in their pool would count as an enclosed yard.

Jarno van der Linden

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 14:28:05 +1300

I would add that everyone reading this has a tool on their computer (a web browser) that can provide unauthorized access to a website

But probably most of us don't possess those tools because we intend to commit an offence with it. I would hope that any possession charge would…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 13:59:11 +1300

Can you explain what "lawful" means? I'd often wondered...

Is a lawful purpose anything not a crime (or offence?). Is there a reverse onus? Does there need to be a specific purpose that is lawful?

Nick Kearney

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 13:50:43 +1300

Parliament should be very wary about ever giving the government the power to amend primary legislation, but that power should never include the power to expand the scope of criminal offences. And it certainly shouldn’t be doing it in a non-controversial law reform bill.

Yes. And the current Parliament/Government has…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:27:55 +1300

That raises an interesting question. If someone commits the offence of being unlawfully on premises, and they have the intention of being unlawfully on premises, are they (soon to be) committing a burglary?

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:14:42 +1300

Is trespass counted as burglary now?

Trespass to what? A field, or someone’s front lawn are unlikely to count as an enclosed yard.

But the fact that trespass is an imprisonable offence shows how much the crime of burglary will expand under this change.

Will de Cleene

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:01:57 +1300

Is trespass counted as burglary now? Going by the examples you've given, I presume going behind the school bike sheds at night to smoke a spliff is now burglary too.

Has the law just grown another ass?

David Hood

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:48:40 +1300

I think, from memory, that Keith Ng demonstrated the power of Word at the MSD. I would add that everyone reading this has a tool on their computer (a web browser) that can provide unauthorized access to a website if that websites security is effectively non-existent.
I am thinking of…

Tim McKenzie

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:42:34 +1300

this is the type of unintended consequence I try to pick up when I’m writing a submission on a bill, and I dropped the ball.
Don't be too down on yourself. I'm impressed by how many problems you do notice, and no single person should be expected (or expect themselves)…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:05 +1300

My concern is that BORA got changed so quietly.

It wasn’t that quiet. Indeed, it altered during the passage of the bill due to public disquiet.

The current rule is that a defendant can ask for a jury if the maximum penalty is more than three months’ imprisonment.

As introduced,…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:34:14 +1300

Did we ever have midemeanours and felonies in NZ?

Pretty much. Crimes/Indictable offences are basically felonies. Lesser offences (now called summary offences, but I don’t think they always were), are basically misdemeanors.

The basic distinction in New Zealand is that crimes are tried by a judge and jury, and summary…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:20:13 +1300

Did we ever have midemeanours and felonies in NZ?

My concern is that BORA got changed so quietly. Isn't it meant to be core, fundamental, rights, not something that can be tweaked at will? I know it's neither entrenched or binding, but if it's amendable late on a Friday while…

BenWilson

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:19:34 +1300

Wow, this is pretty serious stuff, to have slipped under the radar.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:04:25 +1300

More detail of the Supreme Court case please – talk about throwing out a teaser!

Siemer v Solicitor-General. I was appearing for Mr Siemer as junior, but got around half-an-hour on my feet when it was argued for the second time last week.

We had a day’s hearing late last…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:52:12 +1300

Ah I see what they did there – forget the 3 strikes laws – own a copy of windows, think about downloading a song – go to jail for 2 years

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:44:52 +1300

there are many programmes that are capable of being used to commit a crime. There must be a co-existent intention to commit a crime which may be proven by direct evidence or inference.

That's true. But the type of crime that has to be proved by that evidence would change…

David Harvey

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:32:31 +1300

On the computer crime thing – sure, there are many programmes that are capable of being used to commit a crime. There must be a co-existent intention to commit a crime which may be proven by direct evidence or inference. But then lots of stuff can be used for nasty…

Public Address

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:18:08 +1300

Discussion from blog post.