Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Now it's up to you

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:14:24 +1300

Thanks again for this Graeme. My work colleagues wanted to know about the referendum, and being able to email them the link to the referendum tool is invaluable.

Happy to help. It's good to know that it's getting some use!

If they've got any questions about any of the systems,…

Jackie Clark

Thu, 10 Nov 2011 07:47:10 +1300

Thanks again for this Graeme. My work colleagues wanted to know about the referendum, and being able to email them the link to the referendum tool is invaluable.

Roger

Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:20:24 +1300

Thank you Graeme, very useful and informative. I had sort of forgotten about the upcoming referendum, it really is not getting much coverage.

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 01 Oct 2011 13:05:20 +1300

An extra piece of information that will help me make my mind up whether to stay on or go to the election night party.

Yeah, we'll know all we're going to know about the referendum very early in the night.

JLM

Sat, 01 Oct 2011 11:59:36 +1300

Some time over the following week or so, the votes actually cast in the referendum at polling booths will be counted by the returning officer. Scrutineers will not be permitted to be present, although the count in each electorate will be conducted with a JP present (chosen somehow, by someone…

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:08:53 +1300

Forgive my ignorance ...
so once we've all voted – how do 'they' decide? Um.

On the day of the election, the advance votes cast in the referendum will be counted by the returning officer.

Some time over the following week or so, the votes actually cast in the referendum…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 01 Oct 2011 07:56:08 +1300

the Empire's Vampire Umpires...
so once we've all voted – how do 'they' decide? Um.
I reckon for such high stake stuff they send in the Count with his death adders, sundry calculating bastards and show-off hands to cook the books before we come to our census.
Psephology is a…

amymac

Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:31:54 +1300

Forgive my ignorance ...
so once we've all voted – how do 'they' decide? Um.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:38:05 +1300

I'm voting for Charlie Chaplin...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo&feature=player_embedded

Rebecca Williams

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:56:45 +1300

it will get seen by my peeps, anyway. very useful, thank you graeme.

Islander

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:00:01 +1300

Now, *he* is an interesting one (more lawyer than insurance agent tho’.)
I think of him as the poet-apologist for poetry & the especial work poets can do…must go shortly to the poetry bookshelves & check my memory, renew my respect…thank you for bringing him to the surface of my mind again…

Richard Aston

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:05:51 +1300

Was he not primarily a lawmaker & statesman? Whose poetry seems to have been largely propaganda in support of what he was doing?
Yes I think a lawmaker first poet second ... propaganda? I though he used poetry to communicate his ideas to the Athenians, does that count as propaganda?

And…

Islander

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:36:35 +1300

Was he not primarily a lawmaker & statesman? Whose poetry seems to have been largely propaganda in support of what he was doing?

I.e.- not one of us idle wordplayers/mythmakers/songsters & explorers-of-nature-the-human-heart-history & everybloodythingelse?

Richard Aston

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:28:28 +1300

Fair enough Islander I guess there are poets and poets but what about Solon the greek poet who was credited with setting up Athens? Just loved that thing he did declaring all debt written off .

Islander

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:17:39 +1300

Speaking as one – no, you wouldnt!

Richard Aston

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:09:53 +1300

Great work Graeme.
I am disappointed we have no options for absolute monarchy or theocracy. Hey they worked in the past.

This wonderrful list of forms government has some doosies like Kratocracy (government by those who are strong enough to seize power through force or cunning) umm that would…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 12:19:25 +1300

spit n pollish...
Is there a "Faust Past the Post" option?
In which we contract the Government we want
at the crossing place, naturally...

David Hood

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:52:24 +1300

What that tends to mean is that the bits of the system you knew you didn't like are being balanced out by the bits that you didn't know you did like (I would also note there is a difference in the nature of "second choice" between a close second and…

Raymond A Francis

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:17:11 +1300

Great fun and helpful
The fun part is trying to skew the results to the way you think 'cause I keep get STV as a second option which I thought I didn't like ie the ranking of candidates which I feel is a crock
More education for me obviously

Brent Jackson

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:13:05 +1300

I think that analysis is based on the faulty premise that the proportionality of second preferences is equal to that of the first. This is unlikely to be true. A left leaning voter will go through all the left leaning parties before they would vote for National. I'd suggest that…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:41:10 +1300

parties don’t have uniform support, and that, on the whole, things mostly work out

That's what I mean by "coincidentally proportional".

It's possible for STV to deliver a proportional result (and indeed for FPP to do so, in a few cases). But it isn't in any way guaranteed by the…

Venetia King

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:20:58 +1300

+1 to what Jackie said, thanks Graeme.

Apparently STV is my second choice – I find it interesting that my two top choices are the voting systems with which I've had the most experience in recent years (at least in local & central government elections).

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 23:54:39 +1300

In general, I think it is assumed that parties don't have uniform support, and that, on the whole, things mostly work out, if the electorates are reasonably-sized. The Royal Commission on the Electoral System recommended that if we were to have STV that 80% of the electorates should elect 5…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:37:56 +1300

For an example of what might have happened last election under STV, see this (based on the University of Auckland's simulator) see:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AvurY2k7kP6HdEhCRGR0OE9wRm80TmRCUURYSmJEbWc&output=html

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:13:00 +1300

Assuming that we did have multi-member seats, STV inherently creates a “threshold” of (for a party with uniform national support),:
1 / (members_per_electorate + 1)

So 4 member electorates would have an implied 20% threshold.

That’s for parties with uniform support. If a party had all their support…

DexterX

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:02:43 +1300

Thanks

DexterX

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:00:52 +1300

perfectly fitting the masters' master plan.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:00:57 +1300

(However, given NZ’s political environment, and those driving for change, I think we’d almost certainly get single member electorates).

We wouldn't get single member electorates. Preferential Voting in single member electorates is a separate option in the referendum (preferential voting (PV)).

If it's single transferable vote (STV) that tops the…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:55:58 +1300

I would hate, in reality, to see the bulk of voters with a social conscience get split between STV & MMP and the social conservative voters who prefer a one party state prevail with FPP.

Can’t happen. There are two questions, the first question is about whether we should keep MMP.…

George Darroch

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:53:20 +1300

STV is generally considered a proportional voting system.

Incorrectly.

It’s a preferential system, and its strength is that is delivers the most-preferred/least-unpreferred candidate in an electorate a victory. In a multi-member electorate, you get the most preferred candidates. (However, given NZ’s political environment, and those driving for change, I think…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:50:16 +1300

One mistake.
To be absolutely fair there should have been an option for LESS or NO MAORI seats.

I explain somewhere (either the extra info, or the FAQ), that I haven't included an option about getting rid of the Māori seats, or having fewer Māori seats because it's not an…

Sacha

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:27:03 +1300

though that outcome might be perfectly fitting :)

DexterX

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:10:16 +1300

Great tool.

My answers resulted in equal totals for STV & MMP.

I would hate, in reality, to see the bulk of voters with a social conscience get split between STV & MMP and the social conservative voters who prefer a one party state prevail with FPP.

Mike Mckee

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:40:09 +1300

One mistake.
To be absolutely fair there should have been an option for LESS or NO MAORI seats.
Otherwise a good tool.

Rob Stowell

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:37:41 +1300

What system do you favour, Graeme?

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 13:44:36 +1300

*None* of the options given in Q2 are proportional

STV is generally considered a proportional voting system.

I'd recommend voting for whichever of the systems in the second question you'd actually be okay with.

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 13:28:28 +1300

the potential for people who vote for retention of MMP in Q1 to skip Q2 all together, which could skew the results of that part of the referendum away from a proportional system

*None* of the options given in Q2 are proportional, except by chance (all of them *may* produce…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 12:13:38 +1300

some of the questions (such as Q7) would have a bearing on any decision between MMP with a threshold and without. Did you consider them as options for this tool?

Yes. I go into that in the FAQ a little, but basically, something like this can only be very broad…

Tom Beard

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:53:02 +1300

Just wondering: some of the questions (such as Q7) would have a bearing on any decision between MMP with a theshold and without. Did you consider them as options for this tool?

Tony Siu

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:37:21 +1300

Why didn't you post this up last year when I did my one and only political essay for university? Why?

Great work!

Gareth Ward

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:31:40 +1300

Useful to determine the second choice if required, thanks.
Agree with Hayden's point though that a large number of people supporting MMP may avoid the second question all together – even with your tireless efforts :)

Hayden East

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:21:06 +1300

No. FPP is a perfectly defensible system if you take certain starting points of this and this are important and this and that are not.

Just jokes. For the record I'm going with

Q1: Retain MMP
Q2: STV

What I'm concerned about is the potential for people who vote for…

Tim McKenzie

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:51:20 +1300

Question 1 seems to assume that votes are intended to determine the proportionality of Parliament, or the selection of the government, rather than to determine who represents the voters in Parliament. If voters care more about who represents their electorate than about the proportionality of Parliament, they might not consider…

Ian MacKay

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:46:05 +1300

Brilliant. Does it get seen wider than here?

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:42:14 +1300

I have never been confused about this one,. I have always loved MMP.

You can vote in the second question too! Don't forget your second choice.

If it's diversity you want, probably STV; if it's a dual vote, then SM, but don't take my word for it, take my word…

Jackie Clark

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:36:11 +1300

I have never been confused about this one,. I have always loved MMP. I love the diversity it brings to parliament, and I also love being able to vote electorate AND party. But I love the way you've done that, Graeme. Good man!

Sacha

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:11:11 +1300

Oh, and MMP for me, apparently.

Sacha

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:09:53 +1300

Perfectly correct for static text, yes – and thank you for thinking of that aspect.

It's tricky when you have information that updates in response to input throughout and is meant to drive interest in clicking for further info about particular voting systems based on results.

Maybe move the results…

Lilith __

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:09:24 +1300

That's brilliant! Thanks, will be sharing this....

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:52:11 +1300

If you end up with FPP does that make you a bad person?

No. FPP is a perfectly defensible system if you take certain starting points of this and this are important and this and that are not.

I'd like to think that people who like FPP would realise that…

Hayden East

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:38:47 +1300

If you end up with FPP does that make you a bad person?

David Hood

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:31:54 +1300

Sacha, my thinking around the results location was, textflow-wise, it is much easier for people using assistive technology like text-to-speech if the results section followed (in some fashion) the voting sections.

Sacha

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 08:21:31 +1300

Thanks, Graeme (and David). Wonder if the results could be across the top or on the left? – more prominent than they are on my screen, anyway. Could marry them up directly with the links for more info about each voting system.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 08:15:29 +1300

(although feel free to ask any questions in the comments)

You’d think, having said that, that I’d enable the ability to leave comments.

Public Address

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 08:15:29 +1300

Discussion from blog post.