Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: MPs' Pay

BenWilson

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:12:42 +1200

There's a few other things that seem important too. Death duties seem like a good idea to me, although the details need some fleshing. For small amounts like maybe a house or so, inheritance doesn't seem unfair. But when it's old money in massive quantities it's a pile that won't…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 16:00:15 +1200

I'm totally in favour of a UBI, along with measures like a cap on public service salaries (as practiced in that hotbed of socialism, the USA).

BenWilson

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 14:02:42 +1200

I’m not sure anyone has ever suggested such a system would be practical without a radical change in attitudes.

They may say that a radical change in attitudes might come about from such a system, though. So which one comes first?

I’m not sure that’s any fairer than paying everyone…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 13:00:13 +1200

I'm not sure anyone has ever suggested such a system would be practical without a radical change in attitudes. Most models of socialism start with to each according to their work and the migration to to each according to their need is expected to take many generations.

In our current…

BenWilson

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:48:30 +1200

I do think it would change a lot!

I’m sure of that. I don’t make any particular claims about how it might be achieved, though, and as a good aim, it’s predicated around the idea that fucking around on the X-box all day really is the kind of thing someone…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:16:16 +1200

better than the lower social classes

We’re talking about a system without class distinction where everyone earns the same no matter how much work they do or if they do any work at all – a completely flat income distribution – I think that change in incentives would make a…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 11:56:53 +1200

… Or have I missed some more charitable logical possibility here?

I've mentioned it before, but Chris Hayes' Twilight of the Elites is a must-read if you want some insight into the "too smart to fail" brigade.

linger

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 01:44:43 +1200

though, anyone espousing such an opinion must fall into one of three camps, none of which is a good look, because either
(a) they genuinely hold that opinion of others, because they believe that is how they themselves would behave given the opportunity (in which case: would you give this…

BenWilson

Tue, 25 Jun 2013 11:59:08 +1200

To not sit at home on the xbox expecting others to work to put a roof over your head and earn the money to educate your children and pay your doctor’s bills?

That's an old favorite, for sure.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 25 Jun 2013 11:13:44 +1200

they’d say that some difference between rich and poor should still exist as an incentive for … um….something.

To not sit at home on the xbox expecting others to work to put a roof over your head and earn the money to educate your children and pay your doctor's bills?

linger

Tue, 25 Jun 2013 09:59:16 +1200

The distribution doesn’t have to be normal for a target of reducing the standard deviation to work well enough for this purpose. Though that doesn’t by itself guarantee that the “typical” wage won’t decrease relative to the cost of living.

But the bigger problem may be convincing parties to find,…

BenWilson

Tue, 25 Jun 2013 09:43:48 +1200

This won’t work. The median income (by definition) is the middle value. Any movement in the bottom values (eg minimum wage earners and unemployed) will make no difference unless they go past the middle value. For example, if all the unemployed got jobs that earned less than the median income,…

Sacha

Tue, 25 Jun 2013 09:14:08 +1200

Informing the public how wealth and income are spread around would be a great start. Most of us have no idea what the median wage is, or who owns assets.

linger

Tue, 25 Jun 2013 01:37:53 +1200

And indeed, there's the rub. It's hard to incentivise MPs to do anything for the general public when they perceive themselves to be so far removed from it.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 24 Jun 2013 20:51:34 +1200

You don't think that Paliament would just be peopled by more Key/Banks types who are so wealthy they don't even bother to open their wageslips?

linger

Mon, 24 Jun 2013 19:03:27 +1200

I could be wrong, but I read Ben’s point as being that the median income (for the purpose of calculating politicians’ salaries) should be calculated across all potential wage earners, including the unemployed, rather than excluding the unemployed. Which will make some difference to the median, as the salary corresponding…

Brent Jackson

Mon, 24 Jun 2013 15:31:06 +1200

The median income should include people who earn nothing, so that they are further incentivized to reduce unemployment, as well, or perhaps to raise benefits.

This won't work. The median income (by definition) is the middle value. Any movement in the bottom values (eg minimum wage earners and unemployed) will…

Craig Ranapia

Sat, 22 Jun 2013 01:06:41 +1200

Word. Inflation adjustment isn't enough. They should be pegged to what the middle is earning

No – it would be infinitely more amusing if MP's salary hikes were pegged to those of the education and healthcare workforce. You know, the people who are constantly being told to show "wage restraint"…

BenWilson

Fri, 21 Jun 2013 21:04:17 +1200

It would be nice if salaries were indexed to the median income, but as a feedback measure it loses its power if it doesn't take effect until the following term. I like the idea of Key et al having their pay cut as a consequence of their presidency over a…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:15:43 +1200

Hey! I won!

Well, a lot of it, anyway.

chris

Sat, 09 Jun 2012 19:56:11 +1200

Inflation was kinda high in the 70s, huh?

for sure.

In 1975 the average weekly wage was $95 per week (equivalent to around $850 per week in 2012). This rose to $157 per week by 1979

Next stop, comparisons to the median wage where data is available.

1978 MP salary…

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 19 May 2012 00:49:26 +1200

I’d suggest that list MPs who enter parliament mid-term as replacements *were* returned at an election – the general election that decided the composition of the Parliament.

That's one interpretation, but the consequence of it is that such MPs are entitled to back pay to the beginning of the Parliament.…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 18 May 2012 23:15:35 +1200

I'd suggest that list MPs who enter parliament mid-term as replacements *were* returned at an election – the general election that decided the composition of the Parliament.

The new MP will have been on a party list. That party got enough votes to elect a number of list MPs. When…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 18 May 2012 17:10:00 +1200

Typo, first para: “I think the Committee for the opportunity…” – should be thank, presumably.

They’ll figure it out :-)

Given most submissions they get, I don't think they'll mind too much...

JackElder

Fri, 18 May 2012 16:43:41 +1200

Typo, first para: "I think the Committee for the opportunity..." – should be thank, presumably.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 18 May 2012 16:03:12 +1200

If we go use 1978 Q1 and compare with 2012 Q1 it comes out at $131,500

I used Q3 in each my calculations: didn't want to overstate result, and knew that now, at least, pay upgrades for MPs take effect in the second half of the year.

Inflation was kinda…

HenryB

Fri, 18 May 2012 15:25:16 +1200

The $18,000 from 1978 becomes $122,500 in 2012 wages.
If we go use 1978 Q1 and compare with 2012 Q1 it comes out at $131,500

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 18 May 2012 14:37:29 +1200

Next stop, comparisons to the median wage where data is available.

The Reserve Bank calculator to which I linked includes an option where you can measure wage increases instead of CPI increases. The $18,000 from 1978 becomes $122,500 in 2012 wages.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 18 May 2012 14:20:09 +1200

Next stop, comparisons to the median wage where data is available. Although I'm unimpressed by how much MPs' salaries have grown even within my adult lifetime, I'm even less impressed by how divorced they are from the incomes of ordinary people.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 18 May 2012 12:35:06 +1200

I’d be interested to know how well an “inflation adjusted” figure would correspond to what we actually expect politicians to be paid over the long term; ie. if salaries had been inflation adjusted from some point in the past, would they have ended up where they are now?

In 2012…

James Butler

Fri, 18 May 2012 12:08:54 +1200

Matthew Poole

Fri, 18 May 2012 11:59:11 +1200

percentage increase that is no more that the increase in the CPI over the previous year

The mean for the parliamentary term during which it is set would be better, since that gives a longer-term metric. After all, if we'd used 2009 as the benchmark year there would've been some…

Deborah

Fri, 18 May 2012 11:19:37 +1200

I like the three year salary setting proposal, but I think it ought to be inflation adjusted, or adjusted by a percentage increase that is no more that the increase in the CPI over the previous year. Rounded down to the nearest 0.5%, perhaps.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 18 May 2012 11:16:39 +1200

How many mid-term-elevations of list MPs have occurred? It can’t be many, but I’m curious how many people have been paid illegally.

I count 22 [via Wikipedia].

Matthew Poole

Fri, 18 May 2012 10:32:30 +1200

How many mid-term-elevations of list MPs have occurred? It can't be many, but I'm curious how many people have been paid illegally.

If you haven't yet sent it in, the last paragraph of "Deductions from Suspended Members", second line (as formatted here) says "at lease" when you mean "at least".…

Public Address

Fri, 18 May 2012 10:32:30 +1200

Discussion from blog post.