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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: MMP Review - The Proposals</title>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267713#post267713</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267713#post267713</guid>
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						<p><q>Labour wins again for one term in 1984 with a New Zealand Party coalition.</q></p><p>Can't see that happening. Despite Labour turning hard right, on election night they were still in theory pretty left wing &ndash; election policies etc. Can't pick NZ Party going with them until Douglas started to fire…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 11:16:07 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>tussock</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267551#post267551</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267551#post267551</guid>
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						<p>Hey, tussock, stupid. Try the actual formulae, not rounding on percentages, same end results though, for the most part.</p><p>(our alt.history MMP with no minimum)</p><p>Other than Labour/Values winning in '72, Social Credit has held the balance of power since forever. Labour wins again for one term in 1984 with…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 00:49:26 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267532#post267532</link>
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						The question I have is how to get rid of Peter bloody Dunne and never allow the likes of him back. If the Nats didn't give him the spurious "credibility" of a minsterial portfolio, Ohariu voters would have deserted him years ago. As it is, they are smart enough to…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:17:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>tussock</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267519#post267519</link>
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						<p>Oh, and one tiny thing to add to my rant on page 1. What MMP with no threshold would have given us as governments over the years, including the pre-MMP ones.</p><p>1981: 47 National, 25 Social Credit. No foreign borrowing for think big.<br />1984: 52 Labour, 15 Bob Jones. Free…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:06:38 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267392#post267392</link>
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						I'm sure they won't come to agree with us, but that doesn't mean their opinion on the number of MPs should hold a lot of sway. If they're not prepared to become experts on forms of democratic governance, which clearly they're not, they need to accept that they won't always…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:55:10 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Raymond A Francis</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267322#post267322</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267322#post267322</guid>
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						I quite agree that we need the numbers but your point the maybe the voters are wrong and given time they will agree with us sounds awfully like the Labour Party saying that surely the voters will see they made a mistake and come back to the fold
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				<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:59:37 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267235#post267235</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267235#post267235</guid>
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						<p><q>Well, last time people had a chance to vote on Parliments size I believe 81% thought a smaller Parliment was the way to go</q></p><p>I wonder how much of that is people who mistakenly believe that NZ has more elected representatives with legislative authority than other countries. We actually have…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:08:24 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267234#post267234</link>
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						<p><q>If people don't want little parties to represent them in parliament they won't fucking well vote for them, eh</q></p><p>Hard to argue with that. </p><p>Most worrying thing about keeping the threshold quite high is how hard it is for new political movements to gain any parliamentary experience and resources without…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:03:07 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Raymond A Francis</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267218#post267218</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267218#post267218</guid>
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						Well, last time people had a chance to vote on Parliments size I believe 81% thought a smaller Parliment was the way to go
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				<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:18:51 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>tussock</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267203#post267203</link>
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						<p><q>Reducing the party vote threshold to 4%</q><br />What a gigantic waste of time. Way to piss on the opportunity for us to have a representative democracy. Dear Sir or Madam, it's not up to you to decide who's worthy of being elected to parliament, it's up to the <strong>FUCKING VOTERS</strong>.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:53:07 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267120#post267120</link>
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						<p><q>many people feel the place is to big</q></p><p>I wonder if those people would rather that country was run by a CERA style board of 'highly-qualified people' with a handful of MPs to act as a rubber stamp.</p><p>Operating Parliament, including buildings, salaries and expenses, costs a tiny, tiny fraction…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:21:07 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267102#post267102</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267102#post267102</guid>
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						has to be worth some sort of prize, amiright
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:56:00 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Geddis</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267100#post267100</link>
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						<p><q>Goldilocks was still ejected from the house by a bear majority.</q></p><p>Possibly the first time anyone, anywhere has made a genuinely funny joke about the issue of electoral reform. To you, sir, I bow in humble amazement.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:43:48 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Raymond A Francis</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267096#post267096</link>
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						<p>I do wish that they had taken objections to there being any threshold on board<br />The threshold is anti democratic</p><p>And despite being a South Islander I do wonder if a debate about the 16 seats for the south would be worthwhile especially as all forward population studies show a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:28:26 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Mikaere Curtis</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267081#post267081</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267081#post267081</guid>
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						<p><q>You have misunderstood it.</q><br />Thanks for clearing that up, I/S.</p><p><q>The Maori Party don’t make any serious effort to seek list votes. While this is their right (and I don’t think Pakeha and others have any standing to interfere with the disposition of the Maori seats) it does have a…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:40:50 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267079#post267079</link>
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						gold
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:36:11 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Butler</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267074#post267074</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267074#post267074</guid>
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						<p><q>It's the Goldilocks number! Not too high, not too low, and supported by just the right number of people!!</q></p><p>Goldilocks was still ejected from the house by a bear majority.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:28:31 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Ben Curran</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267072#post267072</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267072#post267072</guid>
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						<p><q>Have I misunderstood this change, or does this mean that the Maori Party, who have never received a single seat from list votes, will lose any electorate seats that are in excess of their party vote ?</q></p><p>As I understand it, no. It means that if there would be an…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:27:53 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267067#post267067</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267067#post267067</guid>
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						<p>Not really, I don't think it's a value judgment thing at all.</p><p>Anderton got a ministerial role on the back of his microparty and electorate showing (even as the former tended to miniscule). If he'd stayed in Labour, he probably wouldn't have done. So those Wigram voters (not to mention…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:25:13 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267063#post267063</link>
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						<p><q>Have I misunderstood this change, or does this mean that the Maori Party, who have never received a single seat from list votes, will lose any electorate seats that are in excess of their party vote ?</q></p><p>You have misunderstood it.  The Electoral Commisison is proposing that a) parties which…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:21:13 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Mikaere Curtis</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267062#post267062</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267062#post267062</guid>
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						<p><q> then the overhang rule should be changed so that parties that earn less than the party vote threshold (whatever that is) don’t cause overhang.</q></p><p>Have I misunderstood this change, or does this mean that the Maori Party, who have never received a single seat from list votes, will lose any…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:12:52 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267060#post267060</link>
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						<p><q>i don't get how it reduces proportionality. Surely it increases it? Maybe not as much as setting the threshold lower, but still it's offers more proportionality than 5%.</q></p><p>The 4% improves proportionality, but removing the electoral seat lifeboat (likely) reduces it &ndash; a party that wins 3.5% of the vote…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:56:43 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Ben Curran</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267058#post267058</link>
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						<p><q>But it still reduces proportionality. It would have been better to have the threshold for extra seats set lower, e.g. 1.5% &mdash; if there must be a threshold at all.</q></p><p>i don't get how it reduces proportionality. Surely it increases it? Maybe not as much as setting the threshold lower,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:47:26 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267057#post267057</link>
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						Translating the Electoral Commission's views on the threshhold  into the real world, they think the Maori Party are ineffective representatives and that Jim Anderton was extremist, and that both should be denied a place in Parliament if they hadn't had the good luck to win electorate seats.  You don't have…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:46:00 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267056#post267056</link>
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						<p><q>That's because it can't be answered without knowing the Constitutional Review's answer on the Maori seats.</q></p><p>But in turn that becomes complicated because the terms of reference of that <a href="http://justice.govt.nz/policy/constitutional-law-and-human-rights/consideration-of-constitutional-issues-1/terms-of-reference-constitutional-advisory-panel" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Review</a> don't require a report until Sept 2013. That is far too late in the cycle for any changes for the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:40:16 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267055#post267055</link>
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						<p>But not 2005.  There, the Gallgher Index would have doubled (Sadly they don't include results from 1996 &ndash; 2002 so we can get a full picture)</p><p>Basically, at best we have a Parliament as representative as we have now.  But we're looking at significantly worse in some cases, which have…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:36:36 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267054#post267054</link>
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						<p><q>But it still reduces proportionality. It would have been better to have the threshold for extra seats set lower, e.g. 1.5% – if there must be a threshold at all.</q></p><p>The Electoral Commission's proposals would have made the results of the 2011 election more proportional, not less.</p><p>Same with 2008.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:25:03 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Aston</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267053#post267053</link>
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						<p><q>That some voters choose not to avail themselves of the information readily available to them in party lists does not alter the fact that list MPs are elected.</q></p><p>Paraphrasing<br />That some voters choose not to avail themselves of the history of Winston Peters does not alter the fact that voters…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:22:26 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267052#post267052</link>
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						<p>I love this (p18)</p><p><q>That some voters choose not to avail themselves of the information readily available to them in party lists does not alter the fact that list MPs are elected. </q></p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:16:49 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267051#post267051</link>
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						<p>Presumably "removing the one electoral seat threshold" means "winning one electorate, but getting less than 4% of the total vote, gets you that electorate seat", rather than "winning one electorate, but getting less than 4% of the total vote, gets you nothing". </p><p>But it still reduces proportionality. It would have…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:15:28 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267050#post267050</link>
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						I have to say I'm not entirely convinced by their reasoning on the threshold.  A lot of assertion, no testing of empirical evidence of the effects of more smaller parties in our Parliament.  And if you look at their graph, more submitters favoured a lower threshold than 4%.  They had…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:13:28 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267049#post267049</link>
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						<p><q>The Commission has kicked for touch on the electorate MP/list MP ratio, saying that given current settings it is not going to be a problem before 2026. Back to you, Parliament, they said in effect.</q></p><p>That's because it can't be answered without knowing the Constitutional Review's answer on the Maori…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:08:50 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Geddis</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267047#post267047</link>
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						<p>Here's the Commission's reasons for plumping for 4%:</p><p>"In conclusion, therefore, the Commission’s sense is that 5% is too high and that 3% is the lowest end of an acceptable range. We suggest 4% is preferable. It reflects the Royal Commission’s original recommendation. It would compensate for abolition of the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:50:05 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267046#post267046</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267046#post267046</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>The Commission has kicked for touch on the electorate MP/list MP ratio, saying that given current settings it is not going to be a problem before 2026. Back to you, Parliament, they said in effect.</p><p>[Background: keeping a minimum of 16 South Island electorates over time increases the number of…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:33:04 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267045#post267045</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-mmp-review-the-proposals/?p=267045#post267045</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:33:04 +1200</pubDate>
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