Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party Vote Threshold

Steven Peters

Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:16:15 +1300

Okay that answers my question. Nothing of substance has been done to further Bostons suggestions regarding the desirability of constitutional changes in the 'new' MMP environment. I am surprised the EC did not include some of Bostons suggestions in their final report, given their concerns about 'stability'. If they had…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:51:58 +1300

From your knowledge, has any attempt(s) been by government/parliament to consider any of Bostons recommendations, or even more generally look at constitutional issues ” In the interests of ensuring a more orderly process of government formation, reducing political uncertainty and enhancing government durability”, under MMP

There have been some discussions…

Steven Peters

Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:44:53 +1300

Hi Graeme
This thread seems to have expired. Pity. In 1998 Jonathan Boston wrote 'Governing Under PR, Lessons from Europe'. On Page XIV of his executive summary he wrote (abridged);
"A Possible MMP stability package.
In the interests of ensuring a more orderly process of government formation, reducing political uncertainty…

Steven Peters

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:12:51 +1300

stability is very hard to define. it is part of hegemonic discourse – of course a lot of minorities would like a certain kind of instability. They would like their problems addressed, which means change, which is less stable. The very introduction of instability that came from MMP was a…

BenWilson

Thu, 08 Nov 2012 10:30:13 +1300

They're sticking with the proposed 4% threshold, even though the simulation data showed 3% to be the better option.

I'm honestly surprised that a simulation would be necessary to show that lower thresholds generate higher proportionality. It's so damned obvious that increasing thresholds increases disproportionality*. I guess it's nice to…

Steven Peters

Wed, 07 Nov 2012 07:12:10 +1300

I found reading the final EC report infuriating, and a little nauseating. Its not in keeping with the Royal Commission, whom they look to for guidance, because that was a radical document.What this document offers to those who need it most, the non and under represented in our society, is…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:32:00 +1300

Cf Italy obvs. Also, for reals, how is that different from the Act Party at the moment?

BenWilson

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:12:40 +1300

It's possible that if Labour's decline isn't arrested, this will work in the "left"'s favour as Labour holds electorates but loses its party votes to the Greens.

Yup, but they'd have to lose a lot more party vote to start generating an overhang. On 22 electorate seats, they'd need to…

Islander

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:50:18 +1300

aging joker Labour manage to dredge up (I guess it’s possible, and would be nice, if Labour find a bright, progressive young Maori with links to the far north. I kinda doubt it though).

Labour, in Te Tai Toka, found Rino- the Tirikatene name still resonates with the southern Maori…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:36:19 +1300

Winston Peters is arguing that the 5% threshold should remain as ‘this what was decided in the referendum in 1993, and nothing has happened which changes that decision’.
Do you know what he is referring to exactly, and whether it has any relevance in the current debate?

New Zealand First…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:30:49 +1300

That's kind of why, in the absence of much chance of them getting any list MPs, National continues to give an open goal to Banks and Dunne. It gives them two extra fairly reliable votes that don't come off the party list.

I think if that was expanded, people would…

Kyle Matthews

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:06:32 +1300

I haven’t read the full EC report yet to see if they mention this. Too busy today, I have an exam.

I think it's sufficiently impractical that not worth considering. Most of the electorate would punish being manipulated in such a way, it would kill you pretty quickly.

Better to…

BenWilson

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 10:26:42 +1300

I feel obliged to point out that there is still a way for the major parties to game the system, so massive that the massiveness is itself probably the reason it has never happened. There would just be too much outrage.

This method would be if they actually split themselves…

BenWilson

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:19:06 +1300

I bet he's saying that because he can see that the Conservative party could bite big chunks out of his support.

BenWilson

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:18:16 +1300

Ben, you argue that the end justifies the means in that a system that creates inequality between voters, which the OST does, is justifiable because it (might) bring about a small increase in proportionality, and reduce the dominance of the two old oligarchs.

I'm not justifying it, I'm weighing up…

Steven Peters

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:03:42 +1300

Hi Graeme.
Winston Peters is arguing that the 5% threshold should remain as 'this what was decided in the referendum in 1993, and nothing has happened which changes that decision'.
Do you know what he is referring to exactly, and whether it has any relevance in the current debate?

Steven Peters

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 08:14:16 +1300

Steven Peters

Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:49:22 +1300

I agree with your frustration regarding the Electoral Commission. However,t MMP was a 'mistake' on the part of politicians, and who have tried to practice infanticide at any opportunity. I do not think the three person Electoral Commission, one former judge, one bureaucrat, and one professional company director (who happens…

BenWilson

Mon, 05 Nov 2012 21:25:00 +1300

I meant it's the end of them getting coat-tailing benefits, which is the whole point of them being the Mana Party, rather than the Hone Harawira Party. They'd have to get over 4% support in the party vote, a very big hill to climb. Mind you, they get at least…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:03:08 +1300

probably kills Mana

That's down to the people of Te Tai Tokerau, really. I'm not sure they'll be any keener next time on either the MaoriNat candidate or whichever aging joker Labour manage to dredge up (I guess it's possible, and would be nice, if Labour find a bright, progressive…

BenWilson

Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:25:23 +1300

Because they are abolishing the electoral seat threshold, it is likely that we will get a less proportional parliament than under the current system. What a wasted opportunity.

Not sure. It could be about the same. We could lose 5 coat tailers, but gain 5 on a party list (who…

Brent Jackson

Mon, 05 Nov 2012 16:28:20 +1300

The Electoral Commission have released their final report :

http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1211/Final_Report_2012_Review_of_MMP.pdf

They're sticking with the proposed 4% threshold, even though the simulation data showed 3% to be the better option.

They believe that going to 3% is too big a jump, and that there should be a review after 9 years…

BenWilson

Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:06:11 +1300

Yes. It's a target, that everyone gets equal representation. I don't think we get that close, but it's something to aim for and you judge the system in comparison to others, rather than an absolutely perfect end point.

Steven Peters

Mon, 05 Nov 2012 10:48:04 +1300

the importance of possible changes to MMP. The more I read from back-blogs and news paper pieces (notably John Armstrong and Bryce Edwards), the more Machiavellian the whole thing becomes.
in your comment,"My support for it is more from the “right to representation” – do you mean "to 'equal' representation"?

Steven Peters

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 12:51:38 +1300

Ah we are in agreement – The right to representation. What comes after, in my view, is in the lap of the gods, but as long as it is not stopped from happening (within reason) .
I liken having a high threshold, preventing smaller groups from being represented, to the…

BenWilson

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 11:48:08 +1300

Yes the need for coalition is a great leveler. The more parties in parliament to add to the coalition mix, the richer the recipe, the larger, more equitably shared and more nutritious the pie.

Not sure, really, how it would pan out. My support for it is more from the…

Steven Peters

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:38:19 +1300

"I guess I’d call an ethnic minority party a single issue one, to the extent that they make their only point of difference that they are the representatives of that minority, and don’t make it clear what their intended policy is"
Their policy would be derived from the same source…

BenWilson

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 09:53:39 +1300

is it is correct to say that because a party seeks to represent an ethnic group, it is thereby defined as 'single issue', as you assert

I don't really know either. "Single issue party" is a difficult concept to formalize. You could say that the ALCP encapsulates an entire stoner…

Steven Peters

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 07:58:59 +1300

I don't claim to have all the right answers, but is it is correct to say that because a party seeks to represent an ethnic group, it is thereby defined as 'single issue', as you assert (I would call that a glib Helen Clark neologism).. Such a party sees many…

BenWilson

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:51:47 +1300

Yes I think Maori loyalties are divided across party lines. Its quite a complex subject really, the Maori vote. The Maori party recently decided to change their strategy, and not ignore the party vote in future, as they have been doing, which may go some way to explain their low…

Steven Peters

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 13:20:39 +1300

BenWilson

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 12:47:38 +1300

On top of that, they have to pass 5%

They don't, and they never have. They only need to win one of the Maori Seats and use the coat-tailing mechanism, if it would help. It never has helped, because they don't get anywhere near enough party vote. So far, they've…

Steven Peters

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 12:32:10 +1300

I personally don't blame Maori for their representational, or any of the other inequalities they face in our society. It is the dominant sections of pakeha society that have determined the social and political structures of our society, not Maori. To me that's basic NZ history.
The Maori party, the…

BenWilson

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 11:54:33 +1300

I think this points to the underlying racism of our society, and our electoral system.

I don't think so. It points to society not seeing everything through the lens of ethnicity. There are more than enough Maori to push a Maori Party across the PVT, if they really thought it…

Steven Peters

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 11:31:33 +1300

Of the three main minority ethnic groups, only one has made it into parliament, and that via the Maori electorate (the Maori Party – which is struggling). I think this points to the underlying racism of our society, and our electoral system.

"but in the end, we’re in agreement".
That…

BenWilson

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 11:00:05 +1300

Hell no. I do not believe claiming or belonging to a particular ethnicity, is sufficient grounds to believe that someone 'represents members of this ethnicity'. That is a very dangerous assumption to make, IMHO.

You're conflating "an important factor" with "a sufficient factor". They're not the same. As I already…

Steven Peters

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:46:56 +1300

I was interested to read this morning, in The Politics of Electoral Systems, that Arend Lijphart opts for the Danish system of PR as the closest to his ideal model. Very low threshold (about 2%) – but a more complex system than NZ. Very stable, and still not many parties…

BenWilson

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:23:49 +1300

In the last 20years, the security council has proved impotent time and again to act against gross abuses of human rights, and is losing its losing its legitimacy within the UN, the community of nations

It's been that way right from the start. Indeed, the security council is not so…

Steven Peters

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 08:23:08 +1300

"Or indeed, might not ever happen. The need for this has been urgent for 50 years now".
It will happen. I am aware of the continuing calls for reform of the UN security council, but am not aware that it has been 'urgent' for 50years. In the last 20years, the…

BenWilson

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 17:10:56 +1300

But like any established system of power, will not be easy.

Or indeed, might not ever happen. The need for this has been urgent for 50 years now.

Yes I believe that all nations in the UN General Assembly should have one equal vote each, as they do.

I didn't…

Steven Peters

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:01:05 +1300

Yes the Security Council is in urgent need of reform, as is common knowledge. But like any established system of power, will not be easy. Yes I believe that all nations in the UN General Assembly should have one equal vote each, as they do.

It is not correct to…

BenWilson

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:14:16 +1300

Just because an MP happens to be a Pacific Islander, doesn't make him a representative of Pacific Islanders

Sure. But they've got a lot more chance than non-PIs.

I don't think your analysis of what it takes to be a representative makes sense. It's not only what the party says…

Steven Peters

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:24:13 +1300

"under MMP we got our first female PMs, tripled the number of Maori representatives, tripled the Pacific Islanders, got our first Chinese reps (on the list, couldn’t happen in FPP), and even got a transsexual MP, and a Rastafarian. A lot of this was in the two big parties. These…

BenWilson

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:08:52 +1300

Same processes apply. I am sure the United Nations are making decisions every day. Not only that, their guiding principles (human rights) have some moral worth, whereas those of nations generally represent the interests of their dominant groups.

You are aware of the UN Security Council, right? The UN isn't…

Steven Peters

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 10:17:48 +1300

You cite some individual members of some of the different groups in NZ who have gone into parliament. But they are generally members of parties dominated by groups to whom they do not belong, to whom they owe first loyalty, and rely on their continued patronage. I want to see…

BenWilson

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 09:21:25 +1300

To me, diversity isn't a smattering of basically centrist parties-

Nor me. I'm referring to the way that under MMP we got our first female PMs, tripled the number of Maori representatives, tripled the Pacific Islanders, got our first Chinese reps (on the list, couldn't happen in FPP), and even…

Steven Peters

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 08:40:32 +1300

"The massive shift to MMP didn’t cause a giant upsetting in the power structures – it just forced in more diversity, more representation of minority interests".

Agree with the former, disagree with the latter. To me, diversity isn't a smattering of basically centrist parties- Act, Dunne, NZF. The Greens will…

BenWilson

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:47:28 +1300

Maybe that is the difference in our perspectives Ben, although we both share the view re the PVT.

What are you referring to, when you say "that" in this sentence? I'm still not sure we differ on anything to do with policy at all. I think dropping the PVT would…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:06:59 +1300

Maybe that is the difference in our perspectives Ben, although we both share the view re the PVT.
For me, I don't care if even God Herself said that lowering the threshold won't make a difference to the voting landscape (no offense). Its not relevant, IMHO. The important thing is…

BenWilson

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:11:23 +1300

Are you sure you are not a Labour man, Ben?

Pretty damn. I've always been a swing voter.

BenWilson

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:09:48 +1300

If the threshold was 2%, that is where all votes were closer to being equal, then our democracy would truly start to evolve, on steroids!

I think we should lower the threshold, but I don't think the results will be instant or massive. Switching to MMP in the first place…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:53:15 +1300

Since the 1980s, NZ has had a neoliberals of various flavours. It’s something that the people, in sufficient numbers, still think is a good idea. "I’ll be surprised if National can possibly remain so popular, whilst making no improvements whatsoever in practically any measure of governance. It’s quite mystifying, really.."…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:48:12 +1300

When you say 'we' have got the democracy we deserve', who do you mean by 'we'? . I think the democracy 'we' have got is very much determined by the populist center, so its the democracy they want, and others who don't want, but get anyway. If the threshold was…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:40:16 +1300

Yes but Act is probably gone, United future marginal, and the Maori party is getting smaller and smaller. A 'conservative Party' – you mean a new churchy party coming into the house? Yes that is possible, and desirable. I would rather they be in the raw, as it were, rather…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:20:34 +1300

It’s quite mystifying, really – I think it’s people huddling towards power in scary times, something that’s been human nature forever. Also, the turning away from engagement by disaffected voters might reverse.

Who was it who said that "if you scare people enough, they'll believe anything"?

BenWilson

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:37:04 +1300

I would probably be of the same view as you Ben, if I were a labour or nat supporter. But I'm not, like many people.

Nor am I.

They are still wedded to their own traditions and ideologies, be they left or right.

Sure, but they're also more diverse in…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:22:38 +1300

Yes I agree Graeme that the RC didn't see Nat/Lab as losing their role as the lynchpins of future governments. However, I do believe they would have hoped that increasing direct representation of other sections of the community, would have lessened their dominance more than it has
"I don’t think…

Kyle Matthews

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:14:46 +1300

We may indeed end up with six parties in the house , as you suggest, but only four are of significant numbers (more than one or two).

But it's not necessarily numbers that make parties significant. Act, United Future, and the Maori Party are all tiny, but without them Key…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 09:46:43 +1300

"The dominant parties could increase internal diversity to broaden their reach. Which they did. This was a win for the system, and the country, which doesn’t really need to have political conflict over the kind of difference that excluded people from power before"

I would probably be of the same…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 09:25:13 +1300

I think the high 5% threshold subverts the intent behind MMP, that is, to provide a more nuanced direct representation of new and small parties, and special interest groups in the polity. However, I think the ideal of the or potential of MMP is subverted by the politics. National does…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:25:37 +1300

A genuine increase in the diversity of representation in parliament of the nz electorate , one would have thought, would mean a decreasing dominance of the two main parties in parliament , but that doesn’t appear to be happening, the number of seats they hold is increasing over time. Reading…

BenWilson

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:21:13 +1300

A genuine increase in the diversity of representation in parliament of the nz electorate , one would have thought, would mean a decreasing dominance of the two main parties in parliament

Not necessarily. The dominant parties could increase internal diversity to broaden their reach. Which they did. This was a…

Steven Peters

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:28:35 +1300

Yes we do have eight parties now, but I cannot see where the quote you use of me saying it is. But anyway , what I did say was "Outside of the Maori electorates, we only have four parties of significance in the house". We may indeed end up with…

BenWilson

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:53:42 +1300

Why should MMP over time, in theory, have resulted in something opposite to that trend?

Indeed, I can't think of a theoretical mechanism, and since the facts would contradict it, I don't see why I'd bother. Explaining why the opposite happened might be useful, but it's hard to prove. I…

Kyle Matthews

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:17:59 +1300

What I was endeavoring to show is that in the MMP era, the share of seats going to the major parties, Nat/ Labour, is increasing. The share therefore going to ’other parties is decreasing. In theory, MMP should have delivered the a result opposite to this.

Why should MMP over…

Kyle Matthews

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:16:14 +1300

The facts illustrate we are heading towards a four party parliament, who as you suggest will be more ‘populist’.

That bit where you jumped from "we have eight parties now" and ended up at "we will have four parties" is total guesswork. Personally I think we'll end up at 6,…

Steven Peters

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:15:22 +1300

What I was endeavoring to show is that in the MMP era, the share of seats going to the major parties, Nat/ Labour, is increasing. The share therefore going to 'other parties is decreasing. In theory, MMP should have delivered the a result opposite to this.

The share of the…

BenWilson

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 11:27:28 +1300

Steven, from what you've said we want the same thing for reasons that are similar in some ways, different in others. At this point in time, nearly 20 years down the track, what the electoral commission recommended doesn't matter too much to me. We now have 20 years of __actual…

Steven Peters

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 10:25:11 +1300

"It’s delivered greater diversity. The moment MMP was brought in, the number of MPs who were not in Labour or National jumped from an average over the previous 55 years of around 0.57 (yes, that’s less than one, on average) to around 30. That’s an extremely significant improvement in alternative…

Steven Peters

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 08:39:16 +1300

MMP is the best system for NZ. I wish to stick by the Royal Commissions findings, and ostensibly electoral commission, the independent bodies (I have my doubts about the latter) called upon to advise parliament about what would be a fair and effective electoral system. .
The problem is, with…

BenWilson

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:51:52 +1300

You equate diversity with the number of MP's who do not belong to National or Labour.

No, I really don't. But I don't think that number is of no significance in the diversity of our political landscape. Diversity is hard to quantify, because you have to specify every kind of…

Steven Peters

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:15:39 +1300

You equate diversity with the number of MP's who do not belong to National or Labour. That is a necessary condition for diversity, not a sufficient one. It is the number of parties in parliament, representing the diversity within the the electorate (ethnic, class, age, interests, ideology etc), that is…

BenWilson

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 11:15:06 +1300

From my understanding, MMP was a new voting system that was designed to respond to the increasing diversity in NZ. Somehow I don't think four parties was what they hope for when they designed it. I think there were even four parties (or more ) under FPP.
The forces of…

Steven Peters

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:58:10 +1300

Outside of the Maori electorates, we only have four parties of significance in the house, which will align around the 'old and tired' left (Labour/Greens), and Right (Nat/NZ First) block, to form governments in future. Back to FPP, lite
Act is probably history anyway, and Ohariu (United Future 1 MP…

Kyle Matthews

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:17:03 +1300

How does this make the Royal Commissions, and arguably Electoral Commissions, desire to see MMP create opportunities for new parties to enter parliament through elections? 4 out of 10, I would (generously) give them – fail.

I think it's worked quite well. Regardless of the fact that parties typically form…

Steven Peters

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 07:52:31 +1300

Yes so the Greens split from the Alliance, which was their springboard into Parliament in 1996. Act on the other hand, was a genuinely new party to enter parliament under MMP. That would make ACT the only genuinely 'new' party to have entered parliament under MMP that was not resulting…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:09:35 +1300

I cannot think of a single new party that has entered the house from outside, since MMP started in 1996, with the possible exception of the Greens.

When the Greens were first elected as in 1999, they had current Alliance MPs in their number (the Greens were a constituent party…

Steven Peters

Sun, 28 Oct 2012 07:55:55 +1300

Oops – Freudian slip. I used the abbreviation above NF and was in fact meaning NZF (New Zealand First), not the (ahem)... no, I wont go there.

Steven Peters

Sun, 28 Oct 2012 07:52:39 +1300

My point was to directly contradict your claim that the minor parties stand only for “middle NZ”.

I don't see where I make this claim. In fact I believe the opposite.
however this brings me to an important point. They say the study of politics, and hence electoral systems, is…

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:36:02 +1300

Interesting:

President Pem Bird said the party has never ''seriously'' pursued the party vote and the article goes on to suggest they focus more on the party vote going forward.

BenWilson

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:54:11 +1300

I don't get the point you are making after you say' But the minor parties are voted for by all sorts of people' in para 2.

My point was to directly contradict your claim that the minor parties stand only for "middle NZ". That's simply completely wrong.

The proposal by…

Steven Peters

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:36:23 +1300

Yes I do understand that if conditions are changed behavior will change. However, the analogy you use tends to prove the point I am trying to make. If you remove the road block, more people will use the road. However, 4% is not taking away the roadblock, its just painting…

BenWilson

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:12:18 +1300

Could you clarify your last sentence, for me, I don't get you point. Thanks.

No problem, although before I do, I'd like to clarify something else, again. We want the same things in the end. I don't think a 1% drop is all good, all that's ever needed. I just…

Steven Peters

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 07:34:49 +1300

'I’m just prepared to say a small improvement is worth having whereas you think it’s stalling something bigger'.

It is indeed a small improvement, Ben, but only for middle-NZ voters (Kyle, when I say middle NZ, I don't mean it literally, like those living around the Wellington region – hope…

SteveH

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 03:23:10 +1300

ACT is parasitic on National at this point; it wasn’t always, but the debilitating effect of reliance on the one seat threshold, and National’s largesse in handing it a seat did it in.
I think it was more symbiotic than parasitic. National needed the extra seat that letting ACT take…

BenWilson

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:24:28 +1300

We basically want the same thing, Steven. I'm just prepared to say a small improvement is worth having whereas you think it's stalling something bigger. I can't really prove you're wrong, I just have low expectations for what is possible in NZ constitutional politics at this point.

why do you…

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 15:37:29 +1300

I don’t see going to 4% from 5% is a drop Ben.

Can I point out, it doesn't matter what you say after this if this is your lead off hitter, maths and all that.

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 15:36:00 +1300

Dunne, of course, didn’t defect under MMP.

He did really. MMP was approved in 1993 for the 1996 election. He left Labour in 1994, so certainly the different nature of the next election was in his mind. Though I think it wasn't until 2002 that he got in on Party…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:49:33 +1300

I’ll give that it’s a stupid hack, always was. A hangover from FPP, when local representatives actually mattered.

I'm not sure it's an FPP hangover – it was something Germany did, so we did it too (scaled for the size of our House).

Steven Peters

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:41:07 +1300

I don't see going to 4% from 5% is a drop Ben. For two reasons. 4% is the level; the Royal Commission recommended and the Electoral commission proposes as the minimum required for our MMP system to be fair and effective. 4% to me is the status quo.
Second, the…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:36:17 +1300

Over the last 17 years, it has variously advantaged NZF, ACT, Alliance, Progressive, UF

Beyond the electoral arithmetic, it's arguable that the coattail rule, by putting the electorate MP in a pivotal position, has caused these parties to degenerate into one-man-bands. The Progressives (latterly the Jim Anderton Progressive Party) dissolved…

Keir Leslie

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:34:17 +1300

Dunne, of course, didn't defect under MMP.

ACT is parasitic on National at this point; it wasn't always, but the debilitating effect of reliance on the one seat threshold, and National's largesse in handing it a seat did it in.

BenWilson

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:43:51 +1300

What the OST has done is allow one party to maintain another in a parasitic relationship, which is not, to my mind, acceptable.

There's always going to be deals between parties. I'm not convinced by this point – I don't think ACT is necessarily parasitic on National. I see that…

Keir Leslie

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:18:56 +1300

In fact, of course, coat-tailing doesn't really affect defection that much. Anderton jumped ship before MMP. So did the ACT Party. So did Peters. The only defectors under MMP have failed to use the coat-tails mechanism.

What the OST has done is allow one party to maintain another in a…

BenWilson

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 12:27:43 +1300

I cannot think of a single party that is empowered by the one seat threshold. If there is one, who is it?

Over the last 17 years, it has variously advantaged NZF, ACT, Alliance, Progressive, UF. The party vote threshold has also threatened the Green party with oblivion 4 times,…

BenWilson

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 12:01:07 +1300

Going from 5% to 4% is a 20% drop. 20% less people would need to vote for a minor party, for it to get representation. That's a substantial move. I'd rather there was no threshold at all, beyond the "have to get enough for one seat" ie 0.83%. But moving…

Steven Peters

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:43:47 +1300

When you say, Ben, you would trade the one seat electorate for a 20% drop in the party vote threshold, what level are you assuming is the level it should drop 20% from?

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:29:11 +1300

Outside of Te Tai Tokerau, a party vote for Mana is indeed a wasted vote, I would have thought

In some ways. But unless I'm reading this wrong (which is very possible) Mana were only 8000 votes shy of a second seat.

RAM (who were more left wing than Mana.…

Steven Peters

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:06:50 +1300

What is the difference between most seats, and key seats, Ben?
Is it the possibility of coat tailing that weakens the major parties, or simply of defection, which points to the divisions within the party itself. In a sense, party defections are an indicator that we do not have a…

BenWilson

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:42:55 +1300

As I understand it, for you, it depends on the party vote threshold level.

Yes, I'd trade dropping the OST for any drop in the PVT greater than 1%. Ideally, I don't agree with PVT either. But a 20% drop in the barrier to political entry for minor groups is…

BenWilson

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:26:11 +1300

The one seat threshold empowers major parties: functionally, most electorate seats are in the gift of National or Labour, and so they can control which minor parties get to take advantage of that option.

Most seats, yes. But key seats, no. Strong electoral candidates, typically defectors, have made big differences…

Steven Peters

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:08:08 +1300

My understanding Ben is that you are equivocal about the one seat threshold, and not taking an unequivocal right or wrong stand. As I understand it, for you, it depends on the party vote threshold level. I am unequivocally opposed to it, for the reasons the Electoral Commission outlined -…

Keir Leslie

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:04:20 +1300

This argument the one seat threshold empowers minor parties is nonsense, anyway. The one seat threshold empowers major parties: functionally, most electorate seats are in the gift of National or Labour, and so they can control which minor parties get to take advantage of that option.

Rob Stowell

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:42:36 +1300

A vote for the Maori party a wasted vote. In what way?
The calculation (as you're probably aware :)) is that a party vote for the Maori party is probably 'wasted' because looking at polling and history, the MP are most likely to get too many electorate seats for additional…

BenWilson

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:40:06 +1300

It seems all over for it bar the cheering, and the odd boo.

That's never going to stop me thinking something is right or wrong. Or saying it.

National is going against public opinion , and the electoral commission, wishing to keep it.

They haven't always been that way. When…

Steven Peters

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:00:24 +1300

Thanks for clarifying. Oh well. Looks like the one seat threshold will stay, and the party vote threshold will stay at five. However, if the National Party cannot get the votes to keep the one seat threshold, they may agree to drop the party vote threshold to 4% (lol), to…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 07:43:54 +1300

to my knowledge, no political party has come out and rejected the idea (except ACT perhaps, for obvious reasons)

National has come out opposed to dropping the one seat threshold. I think Mana, too. Maybe UF.

Steven Peters

Fri, 26 Oct 2012 07:04:16 +1300

A vote for the Maori party a wasted vote. In what way?
Regarding the notion of retaining the one seat threshold. Isn't this trying to reinvent a process and agenda that has already happened, and been set? ie tilting at windmills. The Electoral Commission, after hearing public submissions, has proposed…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 22:39:07 +1300

And they get greatly annoyed at pundits repeatedly telling people that voting for the Maori Party is a wasted vote.
It kind've is, though :)
I'd be happy enough with a 2 or even 2.5 % threshold. 4 is too high.

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 22:20:40 +1300

What implications for the Maori Party? They’ve never actively contested the list.

I dispute this. The Maori Party has actively contested the Party Vote at every general election since it formed.

And they get greatly annoyed at pundits repeatedly telling people that voting for the Maori Party is a wasted…

Steven Peters

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:48:46 +1300

If someone has more rights than others in the electoral situation that should be based on the principle of equality of votes, then they don't have more 'rights', but are in a privileged situation relative to other voters, and that should be either be removed, or the rights of other…

Steven Peters

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:45:41 +1300

two wrongs don't make right. Yes everyone under the PVT, if the OST is dropped, is treated equally, not unequally. If it remains, the unfairness and anomalies it creates will be, and is, exploited by the main parties anyway, which exacerbates an already iniquitous threshold. Either we follow the principle…

BenWilson

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:46:24 +1300

Are you for keeping the OST Ben, or dropping it?

Keeping it, and dropping the PVT. If the PVT were low enough (ie one seat) then the OST would become irrelevant.

BenWilson

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:45:13 +1300

By taking the OVT away you don't ensure no one has more rights than anyone else. You ensure that everyone that supports a party with less than the PVT gets no representation. You are enforcing the higher power of the larger parties more strictly than before.

Steven Peters

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:40:04 +1300

Rich, my thinking regarding the Maori party is more medium term. The changes proposed by the RC could be dire for them, but I will keep my reasons under my hat for the time being.Overhangs are of no real consequence in the scheme of things. I think the issue here…

Keir Leslie

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:10:20 +1300

Actually sometimes in the electoral situation it is: equality of vote means no one has more rights than anyone else, and that may mean taking rights away. In this case I think it is.

BenWilson

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:06:45 +1300

Unfair is not sustainable? That would be ignoring most of human history. Unfair is normal. That doesn't mean it's good, but I don't think the solution to someone having more rights than another person is to take their rights away. It's to give them to the other person also.

Keir Leslie

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:46:03 +1300

But the ground does need to be given; an unfair system is not sustainable, as you can tell from the (continually increasing) public distaste for Epsom-collusion.

BenWilson

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:31:48 +1300

It’s unfair, and to be quite blunt, I'd prefer a fair but slightly less representative system to an unfair but slightly more representative system.

I guess I just don't. Every step towards representation is won very slowly, one grudging bit at a time. Sweeping it backwards with abstract ideas of…

Keir Leslie

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:01:38 +1300

Part of the problem is that representation is a bit zero sum-ish. If Peters can’t get in with 4%, I don’t want Banks in with 3%. It’s unfair, and to be quite blunt, I'd prefer a fair but slightly less representative system to an unfair but slightly more representative system.…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:55:45 +1300

What implications for the Maori Party? They've never actively contested the list.

The only change that would affect them at all is abolishing overhangs, which would mean they'd get say 3/120 seats instead of 3/122.

Steven Peters

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:34:11 +1300

If you believe in democracy, above all else (as I do), then I don't see how you can support keeping the one seat threshold (OST). It simply creates unfairness between equals, and I am sure that the big parties will find a way to exploit that unfairness for their gain,…

BenWilson

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:00:12 +1300

However, its removal should be concomitant with a meaningful reduction in the party vote threshold.

Absolutely. Divorcing the two, and then dropping coat-tailing without dropping the thresholds would be a leap backwards, IMHO.

This is my reason for thinking it should be retained. Making it "fairer" by eliminating coat-tailing ignores…

Steven Peters

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:42:15 +1300

I should have said the Royal Commission (RC) held up Germany as a model to emulate – and the Electoral Commission is using the RCs 'criteria for judging voting systems' as the basis for its proposals. I argue that the Royal Commission introduced the one seat threshold to assist minor…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:31:13 +1300

What is interesting is that the Electoral Commission cites Germany as a model to emulate. However, Germany has a three seat electorate threshold (which is proportionately lower than our one seat threshold) yet the electoral commission propose to abolish ours, but not make any meaningful reduction to the party vote…

Steven Peters

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 06:46:41 +1300

Yes that was my understanding too. Technically, Germany is without an electoral law at the moment, because the court has found that the current situation violates the constitution which says 'each vote must be equal'. This is my simplistic take on the situation, so I may be wrong. Whenever there…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:20:03 +1300

Can you clarify for me how the party threshold waiver works for ‘ethnic’ or regional parties in Germany?

Not really. The German electoral system is still in a state of flux, after the German Constitutional Court ruled parts of it unlawful.

In short, my understanding was that a party needed…

Kyle Matthews

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 12:32:43 +1300

Emminently workable. Do the calculation once with all parties in it. All parties with at least 4 MPs in the result go back for a second go ’round, keeping the MPs that gives them. I have considered suggesting it myself, it just seems unlikely.

I'd suggest a system like STV…

Steven Peters

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:29:03 +1300

Gr8 to get a response.
Yes, percentages seems to be 'their' chosen 'language'. Perhaps best to stay with that, and not muddy the waters? What is your view? That way we can concentrate on other weak points in their case re the 4% threshold the EC propose.

I agree that…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:34:36 +1300

Could you clarify a couple of points please.

Yes =)

Someone raised the matter of having a seat number threshold ( say three seats minimum), rather than focus on the party vote %. What is your view of the workability of this?

Emminently workable. Do the calculation once with all…

mark taslov

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:46:08 +1300

I support a 0% threshold for because I believe that more inclusion in our democratic system is useful. Check out that list above,

Thanks for posting that list, hadn't seen this thread before. For better or worse 0% seems the most transparent representation of who we collectively really are.

Steven Peters

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:49:35 +1300

Hi Graeme
First time poster. You have done some great work. Could you clarify a couple of points please. Someone raised the matter of having a seat number threshold ( say three seats minimum), rather than focus on the party vote %. What is your view of the workability of…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 09:58:08 +1200

Most of my (over 50) friends think that most politicians are self serving scum who want to control far to many aspects of our lives and get paid too much. and that 120 of them is far too many and that should be halved

[ I think you mean 'too…

Mikaere Curtis

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 09:48:53 +1200

Which nutters do you want ot of the Greens?

This meme is a result of the MSM to paint greens as fringe and weird. As soon as you discount greens as being secret-agenda-driven, tree-hugging eco-extemists, the sooner you can ignore the fundamental green message that actions have consequences and maybe…

Just thinking

Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:31:50 +1200

@ Tussock – Which nutters do you want ot of the Greens?
I voted Green for their Social Policy & like the cross-dressing secretary for their party meetings in Christchurch. A grey beard and womans kilt is quite a striking ensamble.

tussock

Wed, 04 Apr 2012 18:14:58 +1200

The biggest question is how would people's vote change if there was no threshold. We can see how it's changed with one, less votes for Christian parties, the hunter/fisher party, no stable socialist party, and it's very hard on centrist groups.

I'd suggest we'd end up with a radical socialist…

Ben Austin

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 23:11:24 +1200

Has anyone found if PACE have any more explanation of their adoption of the 3% recommendation? I've found a couple of mentions of it via a quick search, but they seem to be as part of either resolutions or a report. The second link gives a wider explanation but it…

Ian Farquharson

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 22:37:03 +1200

Dear All,
It is fascinating to see everyone going on about mmp and what the threshold should be. The threshold isnt the problem, it is how many politicians there are.
Most of my (over 50) friends think that most politicians are self serving scum who want to control far to…

Mikaere Curtis

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 20:55:11 +1200

Good God, what were they trying to install ?

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:08:45 +1200

Actually, it is around half this. In 1999, United NZ would have attained a seat with only 11065 votes, and last year the ALCP would have done the same with only 11738 seats.

You missed this bit: allocated by the modified Sainte Laguë method.

They were still wrong, but not…

BenWilson

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 17:08:55 +1200

If we follow South Africa's method, and have no threshold, we can expect therefore to have a de facto one party state, and a reduction in the number of parties in Parliament :-)

;-0 Heh. Actually, since 1 of our seats is about the same size as 4 of theirs…

Mikaere Curtis

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 15:37:37 +1200

On current voting numbers and assuming 120 seats allocated by the modified Sainte Laguë method, the absence of a vote threshold would give a first seat in the House to every party recording around 25,000 votes.

Actually, it is around half this. In 1999, United NZ would have attained…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 15:05:11 +1200

Is there a PR system out there with a much larger parliament and no threshold?

There are 400 members of the South African lower house elected under closed-list proportional representation (200 from provincial lists, 200 from national lists).

At the last election in 2009, the following parties were elected:

African…

BenWilson

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 12:27:05 +1200

Given we're stuck with 120 MPs I presume this means in reality the 0.83%

I better clarify there – up to 0.83% excluded on any particular representation. Across multiple parties this could add up to a much higher number in total. The only solution to that in a representative system…

BenWilson

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 11:44:14 +1200

0% threshold. Anything higher is simply asking the question "what proportion of NZers are we prepared to have unrepresented?". For me the answer is 0. Given we're stuck with 120 MPs I presume this means in reality the 0.83%, at the moment, although I'd prefer to say zero, because that…

dave crampton

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 10:29:27 +1200

So that’s why I’m pushing for 2.5%. I don’t appear to be alone

Having just stumbled across this post – and nearly finished my submission, yep, you are not alone. I have recommended 2.5% also.

Ian Tinkler

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 21:08:50 +1200

I finally got the first draft of my submission finished. at under 3 pages much shorter than I anticipated.

I suspect there are 3 millions different opinions in New Zealand on how MMP should work.

Mikaere Curtis

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 21:08:44 +1200

I support a 0% threshold for because I believe that more inclusion in our democratic system is useful. Check out that list above, if we had a 0% threshold, the ALCP would have been in parliament in 1999, 2002 and 2011. And that, given the impact of our draconian cannabis…

Mikaere Curtis

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:59:50 +1200

Last time we talked about the thresholds, I wrote a quick & dirty app to suss the numbers for different threshold levels. I updated it today with the date from 1999 onwards (1996 data is some crusty PDF and I don't have time at the moment to transcribe it). So, here…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 19:49:33 +1200

we want a diverse parliament rather than the expected 3-party model a lot of people were expecting

I'd argue that only the Greens have made an unequivocal go of MMP.

The Alliance and Progressives are gone. United Future and ACT are now just single electorate MPs. NZF won't survive Winstons…

Hans Versluys

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 17:47:51 +1200

1 MP parties are mainly electorate ones and they are exempt from the threshold (which indicates that there are two classes of MPs – John Banks always labeled them as Clayton MPs) This 'discrimination' is not solved unless the threshold is 1/120th. Also, the fragmentation of parliament under MMP so…

Chris Waugh

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:50:45 +1200

I was thinking more historical precedent re the Chathams, but you do raise an interesting point there.

Idiot Savant

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:44:49 +1200

Also, as I note, I do support not having a threshold. But a lot of voters – not just self-interested elites – have valid reasons for supporting some limit on parliamentary representation, and knowing what some of those reasons are, and recognising the imperatives behind them, it's only reasonable that…

Richard Aston

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:42:00 +1200

I agree with you Chris about true MMP forcing parties to compromise will lead to more stable government – my hope is it will evolve past compromise to collaboration . I reckon the indicators of this starting to happen may be seen pre-election as parties publicly partner up rather than…

Chris Waugh

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:11:21 +1200

In times of peace and prosperity I suggest the larger group is more willing to tolerate a broader spread of ideas and views. But in hard times that tolerance shrinks – think of the conscientious objectors of WWII.

I would argue that NZ has always been a strongly conformist society…

Richard Aston

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 13:40:10 +1200

The more I think about percentages the less clear I am. They seem arbitrary but I am not aware of what thinking went behind setting these thresholds 0- 5% .

From the angle of groups and the whole.
If electorate seats represent people grouped by geographical area and List seats…

izogi

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:27:37 +1200

My view on the justification for a threshold is influence. A single MP can, by acting as sand in the machine, achieve policy and office that an MP for a larger party would struggle with.

I think that's an issue with large parties and small parties working together, as Graeme…

Brent Jackson

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:11:08 +1200

The main drawback is confusion. Not just in the voting booth, but if the public advertising campaign mentions things like this might some people be scared off from voting/registering altogether?

Would this be smaller or larger than the number of people encouraged to vote since their vote would be much…

Gareth Ward

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:27:20 +1200

There simply aren't enough hours in the day.
I feel a Royal Commission coming on...

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:26:22 +1200

Regarding your broader point, perhaps we should be asking why the workings of Parliament make 1 or 2 MPs so hamstrung in executing their mandate and if there aren’t improvements to be made?

I don't think the major problems are the workings of Parliament. There simply aren't enough hours in…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:24:53 +1200

Incidentally, is there anything in the calculation that requires the threshold to be a %age rather than a number of seats ? I think discussing it as a seat limit is a much better idea, and I would like a 2 or 3 seat limit.

No. You could do that…

Gareth Ward

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:17:09 +1200

One of the concerns many people have with minor parties is their exercising disproportionate power. But the greatest chance of that happening is when there is only a small number of small parties.
Absolutely, it's always confused me when people advocate HIGH thresholds by complaining that small parties "wield disproportionate…

Alice Ronald

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:05:27 +1200

That's sounding like STV – proportional, yes, but often confusing.

Brent Jackson

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 09:38:16 +1200

I thoroughly agree with you Graeme. I am interested in no threshold so as to not disenfranchise voters, but I feel that single MP parties are not really parties at all, so my submission recommended a 2-seat limit as the threshold. This also eliminates the winning of an electorate seat…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:45:32 +1200

I don’t see why the Greens for instance, can win only 11.06% of the party vote, yet be awarded more list seats than Labour?

Because it's the party vote, not the list vote. The party vote determines how many MPs each party has.

Under Supplementary Member, the list vote determines…

Tim Darlington

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:35:55 +1200

But a lot of voters – not just self-interested elites – have valid reasons for supporting some limit on parliamentary representation...

That term "valid" bugs me. The only basis for a threshold other than 0.83% of the party vote is Tyranny of the Majority – ie, if lots of people…

Sam Hill

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 18:52:45 +1200

I think most people would see that it keeps much of the same 'proportionality' of MMP though, except that it is fairer.

I don't see why the Greens for instance, can win only 11.06% of the party vote, yet be awarded more list seats than Labour?

We get two votes…

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 17:58:44 +1200

My view on the justification for a threshold is influence.

A single MP can, by acting as sand in the machine, achieve policy and office that an MP for a larger party would struggle with. (If Dunne was a National MP, would he be a minister? Or get his policies…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 15:40:43 +1200

I dont see a different threshold for Maori interest parties would be required as there are Maori seats which allow a functioning party which doesnt reach the 2.5% level. This occurred in 2008 and 2011.

The recommendation of the Royal Commission on the Electoral System that there should be a…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 15:39:13 +1200

But surely that’s a question for voters, rather than self-interested political elites, to decide?

And given that there is likely to be majority support among voters for a threshold, we may be doing just that.

Also, as I note, I do support not having a threshold. But a lot of…

Michael Homer

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 15:03:05 +1200

That's supplementary member. It's not in scope for the review.

Sam Hill

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 14:20:35 +1200

Graeme, you suggest 2.5% as a threshold. I have been suggesting 2.0% for a long time.

Here's why:

Ideally we should have 120 MPs – 70 electorates, and 50 list MPs.

However due to overhangs we have had a variable number of MPs. This is one of my major hang…

Idiot Savant

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:02:10 +1200

At what level is a parliamentary party likely to be too small that its MPs will be unable to do a substantial amount of the work we would expect even a small party to be able to do? Perhaps if a party is so small that it can do almost…

Harry Musgrave

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:51:03 +1200

Well argued. Halfway through your post I was thinking that 3 was a good minimum number of MPs and I'm happy to see you came to the same conclusion.

Steve Curtis

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:44:45 +1200

It does appear that 5% is too high in that the alternative of 1 electorate MP has become the avenue most likely to be used by parties that wish to circumvent it.
It would be wise for the threshold to be 2.5% for with or without an electorate seat,. that…

Raymond A Francis

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:05:13 +1200

Interesting as always Graeme
I tend towards the no threshold at all but see your point about needing three MPs to be effective.
Germany is interesting with its using different thresholds at different levels of government

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 01:03:37 +1300

My next one won't be as long, I promise :-)

Public Address

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 01:03:37 +1300

Discussion from blog post.