Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Kim Dotcom: We need an Inquiry!

Sacha

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:42:31 +1300

sorry, fisking the PM's statement, not Fisher's article

nzlemming

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:20:18 +1300

I think Fisking is the act of disection for analysis, which is usually done to disprove claims, I agree. Your post is like a "read more" link on the original article.

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 14:52:46 +1300

Mr Edgeler fisks that one in a new post.

Does is still count as Fisking if you agree?

Sacha

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 13:41:37 +1300

Mr Edgeler fisks that one in a new post.

nzlemming

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:10:50 +1300

[edit] No it wasn't. My brain is mush

In the Harold this morning: Dotcom explanation won't wash: experts

TL;DR Lawyers call bullshit on law change excuse for GCSB spying; say Dotcom only ever entered the country under the new law.

DexterX

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 07:40:45 +1300

Oh the hilarity of the fire that can’t be extinguished until all the fuel burns:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10838484

Asked about the possibility of earlier spying, a spokeswoman said the Prime Minister had sought and received "a fresh assurance" the GCSB and Security Intelligence Service had not carried out any surveillance before December…

DexterX

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 22:40:44 +1300

“It is a truth universally acknowledged whereas in an unlawful action of fhe state coupled with a Prime Minister who suffers from brain fade and a lack of a good mental facility, then it must surely follow an inquiry is warranted.”

Sacha

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:50:11 +1300

All good questions. Perhaps another post, Graeme (on a roll)?

andin

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 09:56:13 +1300

Do the laws we have reflect a proper regard for the competing values our society recognises?

Those "competing values" need to be looked at, but they wont be.

Biobbs

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 07:08:52 +1300

I don't know why we don't have that? Has it ever been considered?

Me neither. And I don't know.

What are the relative roles in NZ of the Police and the Crown Prosecutors in deciding whether a prosecution should proceed in indicatable cases? Is that one of the things the…

Alec Morgan

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 17:52:19 +1300

Yes an excellent primer.

Sacha

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 17:48:13 +1300

I don't know why we don't have that? Has it ever been considered?

Me neither. And I don't know.

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 17:30:36 +1300

BREAKING: PM admits Kim Dotcom was mentioned briefly in a GCSB briefing in Feb; but he wasn't told about surveillance till Sept

There goes that 'fact'.
Heh. Who would've suspected! :-) (btw, finally watched the Campbell clip- good digging there! Damning.)

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:47:50 +1300

a less-conflicted independent prosecution service handled that function

I don't know why we don't have that? Has it ever been considered?

DexterX

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:23:17 +1300

A likely outcome of a Commission of Inquiry, depending on the terms of reference, could be that it discovers under both National and Labour Govts there has been surveillance of NZ Residents/Citizens that have been illegal.

It is not outside the realms of possibility both Labour and National there could…

FletcherB

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:49:46 +1300

Thanks for the correction... more info is always good.

Idiot Savant

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:23:22 +1300

GCSB have surveilled 58 targets…. possibly most of them of their own “National Security” gumption rather than police request?

As this statement makes clear, it is specifically cases where assisstance has been provided to police.

Sacha

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:40:25 +1300

The Police do, contrary to the beliefs of people in this forum, consider whether a defence (remember, reasonable doubt) is likely to succeed before mounting a prosecution.

I reckon their reputation would only be enhanced if a less-conflicted independent prosecution service handled that function.

DexterX

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:37:47 +1300

Used to, as a child, work on a chicken farm, knows all there is to know about chickens – Ha......

http://www.ratchicken.net/episode/episode-title-1-0

DexterX

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:35:00 +1300

That is for the Polie – what about for the FBI?

You only involve the Police when you want to make a song and dance about arresting someone.

Not all survelliance would involve the police, not all survelliance activity would not be of local origin.

FletcherB

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:33:38 +1300

So, GCSB have provided assistance to police at least 58 times over the past 3 years.

Thats a jump too far from what we’ve been told….

GCSB have surveilled 58 targets…. possibly most of them of their own “National Security” gumption rather than police request?

55 of them their legal…

BenWilson

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:31:29 +1300

That’s about 20 times a year....Either way, its something we need to be asking questions about, and scaling back.

I can't draw that conclusion, because their reasons for doing it are still opaque. No real point of comparison for how much spooky people do their thing, but 20 times a…

Idiot Savant

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:09:38 +1300

Or in this one:
In three – out of 58 cases – the GCSB cannot ''assure me that the legal position is totally clear,'' Key said.

So, GCSB have provided assistance to police at least 58 times over the past 3 years. That's about 20 times a year. Which suggests…

DexterX

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:56:21 +1300

no written briefing provided

Par for the course when dealing with a situation you want to progress but don't want to come back at you.

Chris Waugh

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:39:35 +1300

John Key should be first in line for a political grilling. David Shearer and Russel Norman should be jockeying for pole position in the race to drag key over the coals. Journalists should be first in line for keeping pressure on the police to investigate this thoroughly.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:39:20 +1300

I'm more interested in this revelation:

However, it has been revealed that on February 16 police told GCSB that the spying may have been illegal – but GCSB's legal department concluded there was no problem.

ETA: I don't find it encouraging that they had a 3/58 rate of questionable legal…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:36:02 +1300

Not much left under the rug.

Except a court process. You know, justice.

With a statutory limitation period which had expired on the easily-proved charge, and a shittily-worded law that provided a defence through which one could drive a bulldozer to the other charge. The Police do, contrary to the…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:32:01 +1300

BREAKING: PM admits Kim Dotcom was mentioned briefly in a GCSB briefing in Feb; but he wasn't told about surveillance till Sept

There goes that 'fact'.

And then you read the full context, which was that a photo was shown as one of 11 in a montage as part of…

Sacha

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:00:43 +1300

Not much left under the rug.

Except a court process. You know, justice.

Sacha

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:00:12 +1300

Key's media release. Nothing more to see now, move on.

Kyle Matthews

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:58:33 +1300

Without public pressure, the police will just sweep this under the rug. Dr Norman is totally correct to keep this in the public eye.

Based on what? This is a high profile investigation which the police have begun. If we go back a couple of months and look at their…

Sacha

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:57:48 +1300

Oh, look.

BREAKING: PM admits Kim Dotcom was mentioned briefly in a GCSB briefing in Feb; but he wasn't told about surveillance till Sept

There goes that 'fact'.

Sacha

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:05:46 +1300

As said already on one of the innumerable threads about this, Campbell Live's story from five months ago is a useful pointer about which agencies and people might need to be formally interveiwed – especially the Police. Narrowing the scope to GCSB is a political decision.

Peter Green

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:58:27 +1300

If Russel Norman wishes us to believe that his police complaint is about upholding the rule of law, and isn't a political stunt, he should stop publicly talking about it

Without public pressure, the police will just sweep this under the rug. Dr Norman is totally correct to keep this…

Sacha

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:57:40 +1300

Given it has been admitted – and I believe accepted by Dr Norman – that the Prime Minister knew nothing about the use of GCSB resources at the time

Your faith is touching, but the sea of lies surrounding this so far means I doubt that matter is accepted as…

Andre Alessi

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:40:11 +1300

I'm not sure that politicians talking about the political context this mess occurred in is necessarily a bad thing, but I do agree that they should stop trying to frame their attacks as "above politics", as if there was some pure realm above politics where "real" issues are discussed dispassionately.…

Alec Morgan

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:12:10 +1300

The various Police sections and Inspector General basically investigating themselves is fraught with potential crediblity issues and confilicts of interest as far as some of us mere citizens see it. Mr Key should be first on the list for an interview, he has let the country down and more revelations…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 09:40:21 +1300

p.s. If Russel Norman wishes us to believe that his police complaint is about upholding the rule of law, and isn't a political stunt, he should stop publicly talking about it, and telling Police whom they should be interviewing. Given it has been admitted – and I believe accepted by…

Public Address

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 09:40:21 +1300

Discussion from blog post.