Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Kim Dotcom and the GCSB

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 27 May 2013 08:37:33 +1200

The up ya Echelon...
I would've liked to be a fly on the wall at the meeting of the 'five eyes' countries Attorney Generals in Auckland recently (though judging by their inherent levels of paranoia, I'm sure it would've been 'bug-free' on all levels).
Last week it was revealed…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 25 May 2013 19:02:29 +1200

I think the activity that various people upthread 8 months ago considered unthinkable *was* actually happening.

Under non-existent legislation, however. GCSB didn't have any particular legal mandate (or constraint) at the time this testing apparently happened. The case for needing real oversight just keeps on getting stronger and stronger.

Steve Barnes

Sat, 25 May 2013 17:10:12 +1200

allegations it had actually been used for industrial espionage to give US businesses a head start on their European competitors
Nah, of course that would never happen. These people a respected professionals, like Financiers and currency traders.

Chris Waugh

Sat, 25 May 2013 15:53:16 +1200

Hager’s revelations years ago about the extent of Echelon’s activities should make this no surprise at all.

Indeed. And I seem to remember that a bit before Hager's book Echelon was reported quite extensively in the continental European press, particularly allegations it had actually been used for industrial espionage to…

Sacha

Sat, 25 May 2013 14:03:04 +1200

Hager's revelations years ago about the extent of Echelon's activities should make this no surprise at all.

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 25 May 2013 13:55:23 +1200

Interesting news http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10886031

I think the activity that various people upthread 8 months ago considered unthinkable *was* actually happening.

Russell Brown

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 18:30:35 +1300

Also, if Dotcom was paying for expensive corporate fibre service (as he was) even Telecom could have sorted out routing issues quite easily.

You'd think. I don't know what to make of this.

Have sysops been gossiping today?

Sacha

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 17:07:34 +1300

The SIS was involved as well. I wouldn't just assume GCSB were the agency at the centre of this latest piece of publicity.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 17:00:15 +1300

That's possible.

But one could also imagine that GCSB were too tight to buy proper gear (like a Netquest or similar lossless monitoring device, fibre taps, etc).

Also, if Dotcom was paying for expensive corporate fibre service (as he was) even Telecom could have sorted out routing issues quite easily.

Sacha

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:49:11 +1300

And no surprises here, despite all denial.

and importantly:

Some studio executives raised general intellectual property issues in relation to the Trans Pacific Partnership trade deal.

gee, who would have thought?

Jarno van der Linden

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:38:43 +1300

I find it very hard to believe that the GCSB would put in interception devices inline that show up as hops in a traceroute. That would be a monumentally stupid way to do it.
Far more likely it was just a bit of mess-up in a routing table, which happens.

Kumara Republic

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:26:22 +1300

well, well well…

It looks a bit like “somebody” was intercepting Kim Dotcom’s traffic without a warrant.
Not to mention the gamers will be miffed, if that extra latency means the difference between fragging and getting fragged.

And no surprises here, despite all denial.

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 13:11:30 +1300

Interesting – the plot thickens. Wonder what the source is inside Gen-I.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 10:44:53 +1300

well, well well...

It looks a bit like "somebody" was intercepting Kim Dotcom's traffic without a warrant.

That could only happen either with telco collusion, or by cutting a fibre. I'd rather discount the latter. Alarms would have sounded, TDR would have been employed and the unauthorized gear would have been…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 27 Sept 2012 14:19:07 +1200

Neazor's report is out. The verdict is that changes to immigration law got people confused about Dotcom's actual residence status. The visa he was granted in 2009 wouldn't have qualified him for protection, it seems, but a subsequent law change altered that status.

DexterX

Thu, 27 Sept 2012 11:43:29 +1200

“Big Time” now, wait till I tell Mum”

and no one tells the PM.

Steve Barnes

Thu, 27 Sept 2012 09:30:24 +1200

people shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that it was the Police who initiated this investigation.I think you will find it was the FBI that initiated the investigation and you can “Bet your sweet bippy” the police were all over themselves with “Gosh darn it, we’re in the “Big Time”…

David Hood

Thu, 27 Sept 2012 08:24:41 +1200

Best of British to you breaking into the SSL VPN that I sometimes tunnel across WiFi, to give one example of wireless traffic that you would not call insecure.

Yes. But I would make the distinction between the WiFi access point and the separate encryption of traffic traveling via it…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 27 Sept 2012 00:08:15 +1200

I have a new post, which answers a couple of question people have asked in the comments:

http://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/kim-dotcom-questions-and-answers/

Chris Waugh

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 19:44:49 +1200

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 18:11:47 +1200

The GCSB is subject to all New Zealand law, although specific exemption provisions are contained in some legislation (for example the Privacy Act, the Public Finance Act, and the Radio Communications Act). Other more general exemptions are contained in the Human Rights Act and the Public Records Act.

Now I…

Sacha

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 18:06:22 +1200

And the agency most likely to want to monitor NZ ISP traffic is the SIS, not the GCSB.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 18:00:22 +1200

What would probably happen is that they’d install a lawful intercept configuration as described here and stick it in a cage at the data centre

Except that that would not be lawful in the absence of an interception warrant, and that includes ISP staff acting on behalf of the GCSB.…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 17:38:28 +1200

Does anyone have a map showing the routes of the fibre optic links around the country? Including where they go from offshore into NZ? Any detours they make etc. Needs to be down to road level probably.

That kind of tapping would be very definitely in the "interception device" category…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 17:33:18 +1200

an idemniity that could bugger the surplus in 2015

You appear to have an inaccurate impression of the scale of damage awards in such cases in New Zealand.

Given how tenuous the projected surplus is, if KDC were to sue on the basis that the detention of his funds in…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 16:59:12 +1200

Guess where the problem probably lies?

We know exactly where it lies: OFCANZ.

I'm actually not that bothered that GCSB didn't make their own enquiries about KDC's residency status. We all know, now, that he's a resident, and was at the time, but I'd never really even heard of him…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 16:52:12 +1200

And they have some responsibility for government computer security.

GCSB have ultimate responsibility for government computer security because they're the body that publishes the New Zealand Information Security Manual (NZISM), the Bible on InfoSec in NZ Government.

Rich's comment is, as you point out, well short of the mark. GCSB's…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 16:34:51 +1200

We could simplify that to "any wireless connection" given the speed with which wireless security can be broken.

Best of British to you breaking into the SSL VPN that I sometimes tunnel across WiFi, to give one example of wireless traffic that you would not call insecure.
Also, [[www.airtightnetworks.com/wpa2-hole196|the vulnerability…

Sacha

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 16:10:16 +1200

Why was there no update on this (major intelligence approval) for the Prime Minister on his return?

Key seemed to claim in Question Time today that his acting PM didn't brief him because English expected the GCSB to do so. Right.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 15:02:02 +1200

Read no evil...
One thing that seems odd to me in the whole chain of this, is that English signed the order in Key's absence, but apparently Key only heard about this last week...
Why was there no update on this (major intelligence approval) for the Prime Minister on his…

Kyle Matthews

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 14:13:36 +1200

that must have caused some family tension. :)

Not at Waihopai. CHOGM in 1995 however...

DexterX

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 13:29:49 +1200

Danyl adds some pertinent questions.
...what strikes me as the real issue is that someone in the GCSB must have known that they broke the law, and they kept it quiet for months before notifying anyone. That’s a sacking/resignation level offense.
I’m still a bit unclear on Bill English’s level…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 12:55:59 +1200

Something Graeme might be able to help with regarding jurisdiction: if the GCSB receives information from intercepts conducted outside NZ, that isn't an offence, right?

Danyl Mclauchlan

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 12:47:14 +1200

I've known a few people that worked for GCSB – they used to have a very high turn-over rate due to a dysfunctional culture. I'm not sure if this has been resolved.

The complaint I always heard from staffers and ex-staffers is that the organisation consists of (a) computer scientists…

Sacha

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 11:17:26 +1200

that must have caused some family tension. :)

Kyle Matthews

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 11:14:02 +1200

However, I do object to be told I’m swapping one bedtime story for another. Wellington is a small place, with its own communities. I know a number of people who work or have worked at GCSB. I went to university with some of them. I base my description of the…

Sacha

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 11:10:05 +1200

Danyl adds some pertinent questions.

...what strikes me as the real issue is that someone in the GCSB must have known that they broke the law, and they kept it quiet for months before notifying anyone. That’s a sacking/resignation level offense.

I’m still a bit unclear on Bill English’s level…

Sacha

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 11:03:20 +1200

And my original question was whether *if* they had such a facility, it would be an illegal interception.

Seems to hinge on the residency status of the target.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 11:01:55 +1200

there's a process that everybody involved follows to ensure things are done correctly

I'm sure this happens for Police requests, and for the "two or three" GCSB warranted wiretaps each year. What I'm unconvinced of is that GCSB don't also have a backdoor that they can use to gather "foreign…

Sacha

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 11:01:30 +1200

And the NSA already gets any traffic routed through US telcos and ISPs – oh and all the Echelon intel for our broader region via the GCSB.

Sacha

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 10:59:25 +1200

GCSB's assurance that the person is under investigation

Investigation would be a Police role. I suspect we'll hear more about that over the next day or two.

Andre Alessi

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 10:08:35 +1200

But that needn’t matter. What would probably happen is that they’d install a lawful intercept configuration as described here and stick it in a cage at the data centre. Access would be limited to a small group of GCSB cleared (or even GCSB supplied) employees (a bit as described in…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 09:20:02 +1200

I'm sure that most of the worker bees in telcos have the attitudes you suggest.

But that needn't matter. What would probably happen is that they'd install a lawful intercept configuration as described here and stick it in a cage at the data centre. Access would be limited to a…

Geoff Lealand

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 08:39:44 +1200

None of them seem particularly bright nor perceptive?

Joe Wylie

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 08:35:01 +1200

However, I do object to be told I'm swapping one bedtime story for another.
No-one here, as far as I'm aware, has characterised local intelligence operatives in infantile pop culture terms. Like most of those who presume to indulge in a little high-handed deconstruction, you object when it's done to…

andin

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 08:20:36 +1200

Wellington is a small place, with its own communities. I know a number of people who work or have worked at GCSB. I went to university with some of them.
I dont see that as any great recommendation of workplace neutrality and transparency. Seems more like a breeding ground of…

Andre Alessi

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 08:15:44 +1200

More generally, if you were involved in the process of spying on a group if people who ran a business of making money off the internet, and whose paranoia was fed by the "h4xx0r" culture, you would probably go in to any warrant request aiming for stuff that you knew…

Andre Alessi

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 07:57:24 +1200

Well, there’s Twitter’s Firehose for a start. I’m fairly sure the NSA would be one of their small number of paying customers. The CIA has a VC arm, In_Q-Tel who could possibly have invested in Facebook.

At the other end of the scale, the big two telcos’s profits are heavily…

DexterX

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 07:56:35 +1200

Key attending his son’s baseball team’s overseas trip in preference to attending the soldiers’ funeral service falls nicely into place to allow English to sign the ministerial warrant that GCSB would have had Key sign.

Key appears to me to have taken/created the opportunity to put daylight between himself and…

Ross Mason

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 07:45:13 +1200

It struck me that the GCSB is an intelligence gathering agency. They don't seem to have enough.

mark taslov

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 05:43:32 +1200

*Mulder

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 26 Sept 2012 04:20:20 +1200

I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was trying to inject a little lightness, so sorry if I toned it wrong.
However, I do object to be told I'm swapping one bedtime story for another. Wellington is a small place, with its own communities. I know a number of people…

Chris Waugh

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 23:14:09 +1200

Guess I should've checked with the GCSB first..

Chris Waugh

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 22:36:25 +1200

it’s hard to figure that their processes *wouldn’t* involve a check on the databases of Immigration and Internal Affairs.

Well, yes, but considering all the documentation I had to supply to Internal Affairs to claim my daughter's citizenship, I'd be surprised if any such processes exist. And wouldn't that require…

DexterX

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 22:22:04 +1200

I agree with you this is how it likely evolved

I think the steps might be:
a. GCSB provide data (in bulk, probably) to NSA
b. NSA provide information on requested subjects to FBI
c. FBI request NZ Police to lawfully "re-obtain" said information
d. NZ Police request GCSB assistance…

Ross Mason

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 22:20:11 +1200

Graham,

What is a Ministerial Certificate?? A get out of jail free card? A suppression order? A piece of paper that gets Key off the hook? Permission given by the guy in charge – in this case English I presume – to let the Police or GCSB do want they…

andin

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 20:59:03 +1200

I know it’s natural to be suspicious of spies, but really guys, they’re not 007 or Alias or Men in Black or Moulder and Scully or Reilly or any of the pop-culture representations of the business,

Ummm they are also just people or clever apes, and on this downward jag…

Joe Wylie

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 20:23:20 +1200

I know it's natural to be suspicious of spies, but really guys, they're not 007 or Alias or Men in Black or Moulder and Scully or Reilly or any of the pop-culture representations of the business, they're just a bunch of civil servants doing their jobs and going about their…

Islander

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 20:21:30 +1200

they’re just a bunch of civil servants doing their jobs and going about their lives.

And ruining other people's?

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 20:19:50 +1200

Given the whole basis of their actions being legal depends on whether the person of interest is an NZ citizen/resident, it's hard to figure that their processes *wouldn't* involve a check on the databases of Immigration and Internal Affairs.

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 19:59:33 +1200

I see news reports now out saying GCSB were assured by OFCANZ that Dotcom and Van Der Kolk were not NZ residents. Perhaps they should have a better system for checking, but I don't blame them for accepting OFCANZ's word.
Comments on the Stuff thread are saying "how could GCSB…

Islander

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 19:21:12 +1200

Interesting question: fibre optics came into Okarito & FJG nearly a decade ago (tourist areas) but arnt available through most of South Westland.

They *do not* equate to cellphone coverage.

Paul Campbell

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 19:19:47 +1200

Of course the answer is encrypt everything – https: is your friend – something Kim Dotcom should already have been aware of

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 19:17:47 +1200

Never going to happen

Well, there's Twitter's Firehose for a start. I'm fairly sure the NSA would be one of their small number of paying customers. The CIA has a VC arm, In_Q-Tel who could possibly have invested in Facebook.

At the other end of the scale, the big two…

Ross Mason

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 18:59:11 +1200

Jarno van der Linden

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 17:51:01 +1200

I am a New Zealand resident and have a Dutch passport. So yes, nationality and residency are different (otherwise there wouldn't be much point to have two different terms anyway).

One would expect though that as this involves one of the most important restrictions on the power granted to the…

Andre Alessi

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 17:50:43 +1200

Anyway, I’m wondering where GCSB stand if they persuade an ISP, telco or social network operator to “voluntarily” provide them with a feed.

Never going to happen. Anyone with that kind of access and authority knows exactly what's required of any request for information.

I must have missed something: why…

Steve Reeves

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 17:03:28 +1200

Can you be both a foreign national and an NZ resident?

I reckon you can---so if the police are asked "Are they foreign nationals?" and reply "Yes" then they have given a correct answer.

Perhaps it's GCSB who have caused all this (contrary to what The Herald, for example, is…

James George

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 14:50:42 +1200

p.s. Mrs Malaprop rules OK!

James George

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 14:33:51 +1200

Sadly, I think most people have made an assumption that has lead them to conclude that the degree of crass illegality committed by NZ’s law enforcement agencies whilst enforcing the laws of a foreign country, has been somehow exceptional.
That is to say thus far most coverage has been conveyed…

Sacha

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 12:34:14 +1200

You appear to have an inaccurate impression of the scale of damage awards in such cases in New Zealand

or an accurate one of the size of said surplus. :)

Lyndon Hood

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 12:27:26 +1200

I imagine the indemnity would be the (court-ordered?) one referred to here http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1208/S00532/dotcoms-revenge.htm – whether it arose from or was signed in awareness of the GCSB being involved I can't say but I gues the English timeline fits.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 11:56:47 +1200

BUT isn’t this signing an illegal warrant, as Dotcom was a resident.
How does that help in retrospect?

There is no warrant. It doesn't help legalise things in retrospect, but it may involve the Government admitting it stuffed up and doing the right thing to try to make it better.…

Ds

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 11:40:57 +1200

BUT isn't this signing an illegal warrant, as Dotcom was a resident.
How does that help in retrospect?

AND surely Bill might have said to Key, by the way I had to sign an idemniity that could bugger the surplus in 2015

Sacha

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 11:26:56 +1200

Seems the govt tried to tidy things up in August while Mr English was acting Prime Minister. Naturally he can't recall any details – and it is claimed did not tell Key who only found out last week. Honest.

Further, RadioLive relays this interpretation:

Labour says Bill English signed an indemnity…

Ian MacKay

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 11:03:28 +1200

"Ignorance Takes Us Nowhere," says John Key.
So finding out is justified – as long as you don't get caught.

If Mr Key did sign approval, then in spite of his claim that he had no Knowledge Dotcom before the raid, would be a bit shaky?

Sacha

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 11:01:30 +1200

the media reporting tomorrow's High Court hearing would have let us know

that seems to explain the timing quite well, yes.

Sacha

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 10:54:36 +1200

Paul Buchanan just told Radio NZ in a lengthy interview

which is now online (27 mins, listening options)

Pete Sime

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 10:54:33 +1200

If any of this happened between 7 February 2011 and 1 July 2011, it would draw Sir Jerry Mateparae into the investigation. What would be the constitutional consequences of the G-G being under investigation?

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 10:21:08 +1200

Buchanan also noted it was extraordinary for the PM to make public that an investigation would be conducted, and speculated that the opposition may have been leaked details they were about to release.

We've known of other ones, so I can't say that that it's that extraordinary.

As I note…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 10:16:54 +1200

the FBI's partner agency here is the NZ Police, through which any requests for GCSB involvement would have come

I think the steps might be:
a. GCSB provide data (in bulk, probably) to NSA
b. NSA provide information on requested subjects to FBI
c. FBI request NZ Police to lawfully…

Sacha

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 10:06:26 +1200

I recall speculation it was GCSB at the time. Maybe others were reading the newspaper instead of those cursed blogs and Twitr. :)

John Holley

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:46:28 +1200

Ironically the evidence was out there since Aug 10. No one connected the dots for over 6 weeks...

Bart Janssen

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:40:35 +1200

someone in the GCSB did something illegal. Who and what is no publicly clear

Minor typo there but I think "what was done" is reasonably clear. About 2 months ago (not sure of the date) the police were being questioned about the details of the raid by one of Dotcom's…

Sacha

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:38:06 +1200

Sacha

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:35:35 +1200

Paul Buchanan just told Radio NZ in a lengthy interview that the FBI's partner agency here is the NZ Police, through which any requests for GCSB involvement would have come. There is no direct relationship. Guess where the problem probably lies?

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:29:25 +1200

last year hardly a whimper apart from blogs as many government agencies acquired all sorts of major surveilling powers.

That's not really true.

Lyndon Hood

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:29:07 +1200

I notice Stuff is referring to 'bugging' which is a bit confusing. Given the PM said it didn't require a warrant [I read 'wouldn't have if he wasn't a national', but who knows with John Key] I assume it didn't involve placing a device.

And: based on the press conference…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:27:41 +1200

Also, they have a budget of $56million. That’s a lot of money to execute “two or three warrants a year”.

As I point out, they also have powers which don't need a warrant. And they have some responsibility for government computer security.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:26:24 +1200

which makes it an offence to disclose a private communication intercepted in violation of 216B. “Poison fruit of a poison tree” may actually have teeth here.

Only with knowledge. That was a pretty big factor in aspects of the Bradley Ambrose case.

It also prohibits disclosure of the existence of…

Alec Morgan

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:09:43 +1200

The political angle is of interest too. When did the Prime Minister know, or more likely for backside covering purposes, not know! what the GCSB was up to. The legal detail will be vital in the end of course.

With Echelon and Waihopai etc there are squllions of bits and…

Idiot Savant

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 09:06:09 +1200

You might also want to look at Section 216C, which makes it an offence to disclose a private communication intercepted in violation of 216B. "Poison fruit of a poison tree" may actually have teeth here.

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 08:57:38 +1200

Anyway, I'm wondering where GCSB stand if they persuade an ISP, telco or social network operator to "voluntarily" provide them with a feed. Could they argue that this isn't interception? Or that interception only occurs if they analyse and disseminate the data – before that (including dumping the data in…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 08:50:27 +1200

"any wireless connection" given the speed with which wireless security can be broken

Not the case. If it is, go break the wireless in your local grocery store and change the price of razor blades to $2 a packet.

Tristan

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 08:39:27 +1200

Key was advised he didn't hear it from one of his staff and he signed an affidavit and he didn't knowingly know it was false...
#planetkey (making an early pitch for word of the year)

David Hood

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 08:38:46 +1200

do not need a warrant to see what someone is sending over an unsecured wireless connection (or secured, for that matter, if they can break it).

We could simplify that to "any wireless connection" given the speed with which wireless security can be broken.

DexterX

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 08:30:40 +1200

Key didn't know he hadn't heard – it did not register with his conscious self – at the time he was at work playing pretend and in this dress up game he was Obama – he didn't think the calls and communications were real – in his mind it was…

Public Address

Tue, 25 Sept 2012 08:30:02 +1200

Discussion from blog post.