Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: John Banks: what next?

Matthew Poole

Thu, 05 Jun 2014 14:47:32 +1200

John Banks found guilty!

mark taslov

Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:53:33 +1300

The partial sale of Genesis Energy will go ahead as planned, despite a referendum pointing to public disapproval of asset sales.

Quite naturally I’m furious.

mark taslov

Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:47:10 +1300

The justification could raise even more alarm bells than the confiscation itself:

his equipment was confiscated because of a website accessed from a shared internet connection at a student flat in 2007.

As I understand it, it is quite common for New Zealanders to share accommodation, and it is not altogether…

mark taslov

Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:17:51 +1300

In contrast and in line with what Ben said:

If a system is evil, it hardly matters that no one along the way will take a bribe

Reminds me of an incident I experienced back at the China border earlier in the year. Despite signs everywhere explicitly warning against filming…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 12 Dec 2013 21:00:06 +1300

completely off topic – Graeme – care to comment on this

I've known of a couple of other instances recently. It's legal. They don't need a particular reason. They can't require you to hand over your password when using their powers under that section. He'll likely get it back in…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:52:45 +1300

completely off topic – Graeme – care to comment on this

Sacha

Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:57:11 +1300

character witnesses :)

simon g

Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:26:48 +1300

"And we interrupt the Finance Minister's election year Budget to go live to our reporter, who is standing by for a verdict ..."

Ooops.

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:10:20 +1300

Does that suggest a lot of witnesses?

Yes. Presumably defence witnesses.

Sacha

Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:22:23 +1300

Well it sure isn't for briefing a jury.

Paul Williams

Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:50:34 +1300

A 10-day trial in May. Was not expecting that length.

Does that suggest a lot of witnesses?

Matthew Poole

Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:34:02 +1300

A 10-day trial in May. Was not expecting that length.

That almost seems excessive. How long did the committal hearing take?

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:56:57 +1300

A 10-day trial in May. Was not expecting that length.

mark taslov

Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:28:22 +1300

Thanks ChrisW, in the context of the sentence and the thread I'm pretty sure the more loaded 'avail' was what I was aiming for.

ChrisW

Mon, 09 Dec 2013 07:07:46 +1300

one thing I’m struck by in China is that ... the nation has largely, as far as I’m aware, resisted pressure to avail itself of its national assets. I’m not sure asset sales fits comfortably within any traditional definition of corruption, but New Zealand ...
avail = divest
That's the…

mark taslov

Sun, 08 Dec 2013 02:21:12 +1300

…and I fucked up.

Which reminds me...

mark taslov

Sun, 08 Dec 2013 02:04:24 +1300

avail= divest

Empirically, the error may be a corollary of corporal punishment. Though it could also be that late Middle English was the standard in Naenae

mark taslov

Sun, 08 Dec 2013 01:49:14 +1300

I thought they were two different survey, leading to two different reports. May be wrong.

Yes they are, The Global Corruption Barometer to which Matthew has just linked was published on the July 9th and doesn’t feature country rankings. Andre was obviously referring to the CPI

The fact that today…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 07 Dec 2013 21:40:22 +1300

6: Have you or anyone in your household paid a bribe to one of these eight services in the last 12 months?

There was another document I was reading on Friday, which I now cannot locate, which also had the other question I paraphrased (as well as this one) about…

mark taslov

Sat, 07 Dec 2013 18:24:50 +1300

Yeah, I’ve looked at that Matthew, they're relatively limited in the forms of corruption they're surveying and I feel you’re fudging it a little, if these are the questions which you paraphrased:

• In your country, how commonly do the following firms pay bribes to public servants or
public officials?…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:33:26 +1300

The Transparency International report pulls together a bunch of other research, some of which is subjective analysis by "experts" and some of which is direct questioning of residents. So it's almost a meta analysis, but not quite. The full methodologies and sources are part of the information pack here.

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:29:44 +1300

Read the questions asked in the survey. They’re not just about subjective “Do you think your country is corrupt?” measures. “Have you bribed an official to move things along?” “Have you used contacts to move things along?” (both paraphrased) Those are objective questions.

I thought they were two different survey,…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 07 Dec 2013 11:16:06 +1300

A corruption problem or a perception problem?

Read the questions asked in the survey. They're not just about subjective "Do you think your country is corrupt?" measures. "Have you bribed an official to move things along?" "Have you used contacts to move things along?" (both paraphrased) Those are objective questions.…

mark taslov

Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:23:32 +1300

but we do seem to give in to authority easily.

Certainly, we proles do. Apropos Jon's post, is topping this kind of list a win? A corruption problem or a perception problem?

mark taslov

Sat, 07 Dec 2013 03:01:17 +1300

= divest

That's the word! Thanks Sacha I was on the way out the door, looking for something with a v, I'm glad you could parse that.

BenWilson

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:01:52 +1300

Yes, having low corruption is not the same as being perfect. If a system is evil, it hardly matters that no one along the way will take a bribe, indeed that might only make it more evil. I don't think NZ is evil, but we do seem to give in…

Sacha

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:56:07 +1300

avail

= divest

mark taslov

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:37:46 +1300

Excellent points, one thing I’m struck by in China is that while this behavior you mentioned is rife here, the nation has largely, as far as I’m aware, resisted pressure to avail itself of its national assets.

I’m not sure asset sales fits comfortably within any traditional definition of corruption,…

BenWilson

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:15:26 +1300

I don't think corruption is a meaningless concept, however much it might rely on perceptions to be rated. When you encounter the more blatant forms of it, then it sticks out like a sore thumb. In NZ, the idea of even attempting to slip a bribe to a police officer…

jon_knox

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:54:32 +1300

I did some study of Behavioural Economics during the year. One of the very interesting topics was dishonesty. There were some pretty sneaky/clever experiments undertaken to gauge the levels of dishonesty around the world in an attempt to determine if there is a cultural element to dishonesty.

Though there is…

mark taslov

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 18:42:43 +1300

Suggest a less corrupt nation?

I think I understand where Andre is coming from. Essentially all nations have a degree of corruption, the ideal absolute alternative being no corruption whatsoever. Pragmatically, even the tiniest amount of corruption, at high or low levels, could affect you or your circles personally.

And…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 16:02:38 +1300

Transparency International has declared, once again, that New Zealand is the least corrupt nation in the world, ranked equally with Denmark, is a bit of a joke.

Why is it “a bit of a joke”? It doesn’t declare there’s no corruption.

And it's a Corruption Perceptions Index. So not measuring…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:54:46 +1300

In current NZ law, an MP convicted of a moderately serious offence must resign. They can, unless actually imprisoned, re-contest the subsequent by-election. This reflects the fact that the electorate were not aware of their offending and should reasonably have a chance to choose another candidate.

If an MP is…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:26:48 +1300

Transparency International has declared, once again, that New Zealand is the least corrupt nation in the world, ranked equally with Denmark, is a bit of a joke.

Why is it "a bit of a joke"? It doesn't declare there's no corruption.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:39:21 +1300

Suggest a less corrupt nation?

Andre

Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:00:26 +1300

Do you think that neither Don Brash nor John Banks knew anything about the move by Peter Huljich to deceive investors in the company run by the three of them? If it was anyone else do you think they would have had to test their case in front of a…

jon_knox

Thu, 05 Dec 2013 23:20:02 +1300

I was having a chat with an Italian pal recently about the Berlusconi situation, more specifically the inability to efficiently eject elected officials upon criminal conviction. Whilst it may seem quite clear in Berlusconi's case, providing a path to remove political opponents via criminal conviction could be all too convenient.…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 05 Dec 2013 11:19:43 +1300

What next? David Cunliffe, it would seem.

Sacha

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 23:48:53 +1300

Banks also knew they were incorrectly recorded

If a court accepts evidence that Banks instructed Dotcom about making his donation anonymisable, then Banks may have checked the official declaration to make sure the donations were recorded as he had intended. That's about as charitable as I can do.

FletcherB

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:18:56 +1300

The additional element that must be proved in the more serious charge is that (in addition to knowing of the donations), Banks also knew they were incorrectly recorded.

And unless anyone has evidence counter to Banks' argument that he didn't read the forms he was signing, simply asked "Is this…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:06:58 +1300

Ah. So Labour could (and maybe should) tell them to bog off, and we'd get an Epsom by-election to stir things up.

(I'm still thinking it'll be an acquittal or a hung jury, but it's probably improper to speculate like that).

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:13:47 +1300

For a by-election to be cancelled, I assume the PM has to make an announcement of the election date, or the last possible date needs to be less than six months away?

Yes. And then Parliament needs to agree by a vote with at least 75% support.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:11:43 +1300

Indeed, my bad – I meant if it was not brought forward. For a by-election to be cancelled, I assume the PM has to make an announcement of the election date, or the last possible date needs to be less than six months away?

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:56:45 +1300

So if Banks is convicted by the 6th June or the election date is brought forward, there would be a by-election with presumably the new Act candidate standing.

If the election date is brought forward, that makes it less likely there would be a by-election in the event of a…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:54:53 +1300

And isn’t it very likely that the lesser time-limited charge would have been sustained?

Not particularly more likely than the more serious charge e faces. Banks' principal defence is that he did not know that Dotcom and SkyCity made the donations to him. This is an element of both the…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:38 +1300

So if Banks is convicted by the 6th June or the election date is brought forward, there would be a by-election with presumably the new Act candidate standing.

I'm assuming Allan Titford will be ineligible to stand due to incarceration, although I guess he could still be party leader.

In…

Paul Williams

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:22:09 +1300

If we get this sort of prompt investigation of all electoral law allegations, we can be rather pleased.

Fair enough, I hadn't followed it closely enough, however doesn't the outcome of the private prosecution indicate the determination of the Police investigation was incorrect even if they examined the matter fully.

Keir Leslie

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:09:33 +1300

Hang on. Banks says he's announced his retirement from politics because this is going to trial and he asserts he's done nothing wrong. But he's hardly about to say "Oh yes, I am a crook" is he? And isn't it very likely that the lesser time-limited charge would have been…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:57:54 +1300

And since we’re talking about something as fundamental as the integrity of our electoral system, one would hope that they’d be rather less conservative about, at the least, putting the evidence before a judge and seeking committal for trial.

In this case it's the integrity of our local electoral system…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:29:05 +1300

didn’t think they had the evidence for the more serious offence

Which it turns out was completely the wrong conclusion. And since we're talking about something as fundamental as the integrity of our electoral system, one would hope that they'd be rather less conservative about, at the least, putting the…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:23:41 +1300

You’d hope they’re reviewing their processes in light of this situation (also, credit to McCready).

To be honest, I'm actually pretty happy with the police investigation here. They did exactly what I want them to do in all the other cases. They conducted interviews or took statements from those involved,…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:04:10 +1300

It's quite disturbing how lightly the Police appear to take electoral law offences. There's no blame to be placed around the lack of action on the incorrect filing, what with the delays in an investigation even starting, but for it to take a private citizen with limited resources to kick…

Paul Williams

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:37:31 +1300

Regardless of whether or not there's a conviction, I quite agree your comments about the Police. You'd hope they're reviewing their processes in light of this situation (also, credit to McCready).

Steve Curtis

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:55:01 +1300

Interesting how a similar situation has played out Melbourne.
An MP is accused of a crime which could means he could get kicked out of parliament. The government only has a one seat majority so depend on his vote.

At first the prosecution rolled up all the offences into one…

Public Address

Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:55:01 +1300

Discussion from blog post.