Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Into the River/Interim Restrictions

izogi

Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:02:32 +1300

On Morning Report about 8.45am’ish (paraphrased from memory as they don’t yet have it online here):

Susie Ferguson, from multiple attempts: "What will actually happen if teenagers read this book?"

Bob McCoskrie, eventually: __"They will be confronted by it and …get upset … and they may not actually get past…

Alfie

Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:45:27 +1300

Family First is, predictibly, outraged.

Gee... Bob McCoskrie must sleep peacefully knowing that at least children are unable to access *gasp* the internet.

izogi

Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:53:02 +1300

And now the ban has been completely lifted. The book can be provided to anyone, including those under 14.

Family First is, predictibly, outraged.

Kumara Republic

Fri, 11 Sept 2015 18:43:43 +1200

Funny how those whining about PC gone mad are the same people who'll happily sue for 'emotional distress'. One look in the mirror and... *CRASH TINKLE TINKLE*

SHG

Wed, 09 Sept 2015 12:59:10 +1200

Old white man bans book that depicts young Maori man discovering his independence and agency in the world, surprise surprise

Rich Lock

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 22:37:32 +1200

We were all a bit disappointed.

Well, as long as you all learned something in time for the closing monologue and end credits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9cMuA-yn20

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 17:57:52 +1200

Or, alternatively, you (or the President, or anyone else) could file an application for an urgent injunction in the High Court to set aside the Office’s decision as unlawful on ultra vires grounds. Because the courts determine the lawfulness (or otherwise) of the Office’s decision to accept for reclassification, not…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 15:21:02 +1200

Around that time, someone surveyed a group of 13 year olds as to what video nasties they'd seen. They dropped an imaginary title into the possible options, which if not at the top, was certainly well up the list.

Also: who remembers I Spit on Your Gravy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV1Jr7wx-o0

Sanya Baker

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 14:50:03 +1200

There is a response from the Library and Information Association of New Zealand Aotearoa (LIANZA) here: [http://www.lianza.org.nz/lianzas-response-river-ban]. Happily, the rather shocking advice that libraries must not only remove the book from shelves but also remove reference to the book from library search results was revised earlier today by Internal Affairs.

Russell Brown

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 14:22:44 +1200

Into the River could become the Little Red Schoolbook for this generation... which means ultimately it is available with parents being the arbiters...

I was a kid at the time of that controversy. I wasn't even quite sure of what The Little Red Schoolbook was, but I knew I desperately…

Steven Price

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 14:14:18 +1200

Yes, I have a wider view about what the public interest allows here.

BenWilson

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 14:08:19 +1200

I remember seeing a DVD copy sitting next to ‘I spit on your grave’ in the local video hire shop when we moved to Devonport in 2006.

BAN THIS SICK FILTH!

When faced as a young teen with the choice and some lads who wanted to watch something not-allowed, __I…

Andrew Geddis

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 13:36:59 +1200

On your logic, the OFLC could “overturn” every decision of the FLBR the next day, on the grounds that the Board supports a different rugby team, and this could have no impact on a decision to grant an interim restriction order.

On my logic, the President then would have to…

BenWilson

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 13:30:15 +1200

"Banned in NZ". It's like being damned with faint praise.

Steven Price

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 12:53:50 +1200

Where am I sourcing this jurisdiction? In the power to grant an interim restriction order in the public interest. I take the public interest to include an interest that valid classifications take effect and are not subverted if there is an obviously unlawful purported exercise of a power to overturn…

Emma Hart

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 11:25:54 +1200

As far as actions go, there are Read-Ins in Dunedin and Wellington. Reading your own copy of the book is about the only thing left you can legally do with it.

Gabor Toth

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 11:11:01 +1200

Another interesting historic example I've recently come across is the film Secrets of Life.
The attached image shows crowds outside the Embassy Theatre in Wellington in May 1950. The film was screened to segregated audiences (women and girls at 2pm and 6pm, men and boys, 8.30pm, all youth to be…

Andrew Geddis

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 11:09:03 +1200

If the censor did make a bad and manifest legal error in purporting to overturn the Board of Review when there really were no special circumstances justifying it (as I think is the case), then surely that is at least a factor that may be taken into account in assessing…

Rich Lock

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 10:33:01 +1200

Fifty Shades of Grey is also freely available to all.

As is it's inspiration 'The Twilight Saga', and it's creepy abusive central relationship.

Paul Campbell

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 10:17:00 +1200

Some time, probably in the early 70s, my Mother bought a copy of the LRSB for us kids to read … so yes what Ian said about parents

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 10:06:05 +1200

the little 'read' schoolbook
Into the River could become the Little Red Schoolbook for this generation... which means ultimately it is available with parents being the arbiters...

From the Censor's timeline

Rob Stowell

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:56:26 +1200

It's there, but when you try to buy it -

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:52:20 +1200

Do we know if the complainant has children or was just acting as ‘God’?

Bob McCroskie on the news last night said " I showed extracts of the book to several fathers TODAY and they couldn't get past the first paragraph, they were shocked"
How come he's allowed to…

Chris Bell

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:44:28 +1200

Rob, you're correct that the Kindle edition of _Into The River_ isn't available from Amazon.com but it is available from the Amazon.com.au website: bit.ly/1Uwz35E . New Zealand Amazon customers can shop from either the US or the Australian store, your choice.

Tamsin6

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:37:56 +1200

I've been looking at the LIANZA website, but can't see any kind of announcement about this. I'm a librarian myself, qualified in NZ, but now working in the UK – is there going to be any LIANZA response to the restriction? I understand that this is just an interim ban,…

Sanya Baker

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:26:36 +1200

Yes, Tamsin, we are, which is where the contention that this was making access difficult for young people aged 14 and over came in. And this applies to the ban as well. Librarians have been reminded by our professional association this morning that not only is _Into the River_ to…

Steven Price

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:17:38 +1200

We might add: Fifty Shades of Grey is also freely available to all. (Disclosure: I made submissions for the publisher that this should be unrestricted).

Tamsin6

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:12:01 +1200

I am finding all of this quite astounding. So many examples of books that very young children can read – I remember Robert Cormier books being on the curriculum at high school, and access was unrestricted. "After the first death" made a particularly strong impression on me. As far as…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:05:49 +1200

Most other developed countries don't even have a classification system for books.

Children generally have a parent or guardian who might be expected to supervise their reading choices, don't they?

Steven Price

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 09:01:12 +1200

I'm going to say a few – and only a few – words in defence of Don Mathieson.
He is surely right that what's happened here is that the censor's office has brazenly overruled the Film and Literature Board of Review. That's like the District Court purporting to overrule the…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 08 Sept 2015 07:11:17 +1200

“I got this idea from a book”
Sigh, it seems the ’Seduction of the Innocent’ ride has opened up again…
I thought we had left 1950s’ mindsets behind us…
mostly it just shows that adults don’t understand their young, and that adults project their own fears and inadequacies…

Ian Goodwin

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 23:40:45 +1200

Umm I've been a forensic psychiatrist for years, and no one ever said to me "I got this idea from a book".

Rich Lock

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 23:04:32 +1200

I'd forgotten about all that fuss around Baise-moi. When the ban was lifted, I ended up seeing it (on my birthday!) in 2002. I literally cannot remember anything about it and my diary doesn't record any emotional damage from seeing it.

I remember seeing a DVD copy sitting next to…

Emma Hart

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:40:28 +1200

I don’t think that’s a fair description.

I was going by what the Censor's Office say in their case study on the book's censorship history:

However, the Board also felt that the degrading and demeaning conduct depicted in scenes of bullying would be likely to shock or disturb children under…

William Leander

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:32:31 +1200

The webs tell me it was about a two women (both sex workers) who go on a killing spree. Killing men. I'm sure if it was about a couple of dudes who were killing women, there wouldn't have been such a fuss.
If I recall correctly, the fuss was mainly…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:20:14 +1200

Or maybe there is. Under s.51(2):

__The President of the Board may, on the application of any of the following persons, or on the President’s own motion, revoke an interim restriction order:
(a) the applicant for the order:
(b) the owner, maker, publisher, or authorised distributor of the publication to…

Pete Sime

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:17:39 +1200

Andrew. Sounds like a plan. I'll be in touch tomorrow.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:11:25 +1200

Why was the novel ever brought to the attention of the Censors? Was that FF, also?

Yes. It won the Book Award, and they were somewhat aghast.

Lilith __

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:10:10 +1200

Considering the other perils in the world, it sure smacks of paternalistic over-reach.

When all our coastal land is underwater owing to climate change, we'll be so glad our young people didn't have to read the word "cunt" in that one book.

Rob Stowell

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:04:42 +1200

It sounds like the restrictions have effectively killed this book to date, at least in NZ. Just looked on Amazon and the kindle version isn’t available … but logged through anonymouse, there it was.
I wonder if anywhere else in the world is so determined to protect children from literature?…

Lilith __

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 22:01:21 +1200

Why was the novel ever brought to the attention of the Censors? Was that FF, also?

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 21:52:09 +1200

Everyone’s favourite, 50 Shades of Grey, was submitted for classification in 2012, and passed as unrestricted. A 13 year old can legally read that, but not Into the River. It’s absurd.

A thirteen year old can also legally read The Great Gatsby and watch Baz Luhrmann's film adaptation. Rewatching it…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 21:46:08 +1200

The legal issues here are so far beyond my paygrade they've vanished over the horizon, but here's what I wrote over two years and I stand by every word.

http://publicaddress.net/8647

One of the least remarked ironies of the editorial was it saw print a few days before the first anniversary…

David Hood

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 21:26:41 +1200

If it would be useful for some around the Dunedin area, such as myself, to request access to the Hocken copy (even as an additional person) , I could make an enquiry tomorrow.

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 21:05:15 +1200

@Pete,

Drop me an email (easily googled) and we'll conspire.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:44:12 +1200

I think it's also important to note that the reason for the R14 restriction was not on the basis of the sexual content or the strong language. It was because they felt younger children might struggle with the bullying depicted in the book. The sex was not considered a reason…

Robyn Gallagher

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:42:40 +1200

There were arguments that Baise-moi was so injurious to the public that allowing anyone to see it would be harmful.

I'd forgotten about all that fuss around Baise-moi. When the ban was lifted, I ended up seeing it (on my birthday!) in 2002. I literally cannot remember anything about it…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:34:16 +1200

Just sliding into the comments to note that Andrew has also written a blog post about this, and to make sure people have noted the update, which has a link to the Dr Mathieson’s decision and reasons for imposing the interim restriction order (here as .pdf).

Pete Sime

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:30:53 +1200

Which library?

The Hocken.

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:26:21 +1200

I just so happen to be a librarian. I think I could draft something.

Excellent. Which library? Because it would be very helpful if someone reading this post could request to borrow Into the River from your institution ... meaning you'd have to tell them "no – you're not allowed…

Greg Presland

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:25:49 +1200

I was a member of the FLBR which allowed Baise Moi to be viewed. It was a strange case. An utterly crap film that was only going to be seen once by a Film Festival audience had a commercial run throughout the country. Although it was horrendous I thought that…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:23:10 +1200

“realistic war violence” as R15

Presumably to uphold the state’s monopoly of violence, on which the government's authority (including its right to stop us reading books) ultimately rests.

Pete Sime

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 20:18:40 +1200

I'd suggest that under (c), a librarian or bookseller who can't supply the book to a person wanting to loan or buy it could ask Dr Mathieson to invoke the order.

I just so happen to be a librarian. I think I could draft something.

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 19:50:27 +1200

But there’s not really a lot any of us can do about it in the meantime.

Or maybe there is. Under s.51(2):

The President of the Board may, on the application of any of the following persons, or on the President’s own motion, revoke an interim restriction order:
(a) the…

Emma Hart

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 18:46:21 +1200

Heh. I was going to write on this tonight, but you've saved me the trouble.

I think it's also important to note that the reason for the R14 restriction was not on the basis of the sexual content or the strong language. It was because they felt younger children might…

Russell Brown

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 18:05:34 +1200

In my mind, the decision is clearly wrong. Whatever risk of harm there is, that harm is nowhere near the highest level, and the possibility of that harm is not enough that it is justifiable to ban everyone from accessing this book, even for a month.

Thank you Graeme. I…

Public Address

Mon, 07 Sept 2015 18:05:33 +1200

Discussion from blog post.