Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Fact check: Q+A on mayoral resignations

Sacha

Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:00:47 +1300

It's a pity Boag et al didn't do research or get advice before speaking on the subject.

That would contravene their idiotology.

Steve Todd

Tue, 22 Oct 2013 17:31:48 +1300

Thanks for that, Andrew.

I see that Dave Macpherson’s 2953 votes were not regarded as void (confirming that there is no longer any provision to void FPP votes given for candidates who retire from the election after the close of nominations but before the close of voting).

I note, too,…

Andrew Geddis

Tue, 22 Oct 2013 17:21:49 +1300

It’s hardly difficult to find out the law, you don’t need a QC, just go to Google, type in “Local Government Act”, pull the page up and search for “election”:

Maybe this was the problem – they did this google search and couldn't find anything. It's the "Local Electoral Act"…

Lilith __

Tue, 22 Oct 2013 16:17:29 +1300

the law may not be relevant in explaining people’s behaviour. It is what people thought the law is. And I suspect that there were those involved in all this who believed the law is as Michelle Boag (mis)explained it, which is why they did what they did.

It's a pity…

Alison Poole

Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:00:21 +1300

Do all these right-wing identities have a similarly slack attitude to legal compliance for their business interests?

It's hardly difficult to find out the law, you don't need a QC, just go to Google, type in "Local Government Act", pull the page up and search for "election":
Extraordinary vacancy in…

Matthew Hooton

Tue, 22 Oct 2013 13:24:08 +1300

Thanks for the post Graeme and for your quick briefing before Nine to Noon on Monday. However, the law may not be relevant in explaining people's behaviour. It is what people thought the law is. And I suspect that there were those involved in all this who believed the law…

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 21:46:03 +1300

(I suppose it all means, too, that mayoral candidates who now still want out before polling day, for any reason not involving incapacity, would just have to stop campaigning and ask people to vote for someone else – it appears such situations are no longer specifically covered in the Act.)…

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 21:39:39 +1300

So if any mayoral (or other elected) candidate withdraws after the election but before the official results/signing in… thats EXACTLY the same as as if they withdrew any-time in the previous 12-months

I don’t think this is right. It assumes a mayoral (or other elected) candidate can “withdraw” after the…

FletcherB

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 21:04:39 +1300

I am not a lawyer, and I've only read the bits (of the act(s)) you've posted... but heres a way you could read it to fit Boag (and Polino's?) reading...

Your term of mayoral-ship is from signing in to signing in... Which is a week or two after most elections.…

Steve Todd

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 19:37:39 +1300

From my reading of the Local Electoral Act 2001 (as at 1 July 2013), it seems clear that, should Len Brown resign anytime soon, a by-election would indeed be necessary. However, the situation could well have played out quite differently, were it not for the Local Electoral Amendment Act 2013.…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:50:30 +1300

If it were an STV election, like in Wellington for instance, are there additional reasons why it would be stupid?

Yes STV would give you the second most popular choice. But that would not necessarily reflect the desires of the majority at all.

If for example you had a mayor,…

Glenn Pearce

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:53:22 +1300

In the case of Mayor, the position cannot remain unfilled so the council must nominate a replacement from it's ranks until such time as the by-election can be arranged.

Tim Michie

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:04:58 +1300

Many thanks Graeme.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:05:37 +1300

Is this particular to Auckland as it has its own act?

No. The same rules apply for every council. However, if the resignation happens when there are less than 12 months to the next council election, the council does nominate a replacement instead of holding a by-election. If you know…

Raymond A Francis

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:03:35 +1300

There has been a meme from the Left that the reason that Palino would have held off releasing this bad news till after the election was for just this reason

Despite it not being the case and against common sense, better to win than creeping in the back door

But…

Tim Michie

Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:57:40 +1300

Is this particular to Auckland as it has its own act?

My understanding was that elsewhere the council would nominate a replacement in cases of resignation but freely admit my reading of the LGA was far from thorough.

Chris Waugh

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 23:16:33 +1300

“The Local Electoral Act simply does not allow it. I suppose it could.” This is a contradiction in terms Graeme.

Nonsense.

"Does not allow" – perfectly normal verb in the active voice describing the situation as it stands.

"Could" – another perfectly normal verb, though in this case in the…

Greg111

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 22:59:18 +1300

Complicated but mostly true

Greg111

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 22:49:58 +1300

A lot of speculation in your comments, for example,"...a drunken rant the night before".

Greg111

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 22:47:10 +1300

"The Local Electoral Act simply does not allow it. I suppose it could." This is a contradiction in terms Graeme.

Myles Thomas

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:04:19 +1300

What they know is irrelevant. It's how knowledgable they sound. A great deal of confidence in one's own opinion goes a long way with these shows. It looks and sounds like serious analysis from experts but usually it's the opposite – a five minute conversation out the back based on…

Ross Mason

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:01:41 +1300

I dismissed it as wishful thinking but maybe that’s why Palino told Chung to go public with her story and force Brown to resign before the week’s end.

Bloody conspiracy theorist.

But then…..it is not beyond the pale to think that they might!!!!

They needed a lawyer.

izogi

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 17:25:27 +1300

I'm a bit mystified why the death or withdrawal of a Mayoral candidate in an STV election doesn't just continue in the same way that an STV council election does – simply transfer any votes made down the voter's lists.

I think the clearest argument I've seen so far is…

Geoff Lealand

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 16:51:22 +1300

Boag knows nothing about nothing, so why do they ask for her opinion?

Bevan Shortridge

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 16:03:29 +1300

Well, at least they won't be drawing a name from a hat. Unless there's a tie? As in that Great Barrier Local Board.

Paul Campbell

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 15:16:15 +1300

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 15:15:52 +1300

My mistake. I should have asked you in the first place. Ouch!

Matt McCarten

Thanks for the comment, Matt!

matt mccarten

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 13:57:50 +1300

Common sense says there would be a by-election if Len Brown stepped down any time after Saturday night. I know this is the case in parliamentary elections.

Last week someone close to Palino's camp argued there would not necessarily need to be a by-election if the winning candidate resigned before…

Michael Stevens

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 13:52:50 +1300

Thanks – had a little slightly wine-fuelled argument about it last night :)

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 13:49:11 +1300

Can anyone sack the Mayor?

The minister can direct a new election of the whole council under certain circumstances. Convictions and other such things can force a mayor from office.

Michael Stevens

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 13:41:50 +1300

Can anyone sack the Mayor?

Chris Waugh

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 13:35:42 +1300

But sorry, Sasha, I don’t give Boag and McCarten a pass just because they’re “political operators”. Being partisan and not talking out of your arse aren’t mutually exclusive states.

And I would've thought that, being "political operators", a large part of their core professional competencies would be actually knowing what…

Craig Ranapia

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 13:28:43 +1300

I did not call them journalists. My mention of “journalist” in the last paragraph is a reference to the journalists who were present on the panel.

And considering certain sections of the commentariat have been screaming for Brown's resignation for the best part of a week, you'd think someone would…

Scott A

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 12:11:24 +1300

Or, to put it another way, it's quite good to see that the law won't allow a runner-up to take office by virtue of assassination (character or otherwise), without a fresh election.

Euan Mason

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 12:06:28 +1300

Thanks Graeme. Good to know that the legislation is rational.

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 12:01:17 +1300

If it were an STV election, like in Wellington for instance, are there additional reasons why it would be stupid? Perhaps the runner up shouldn’t automatically get it, but in such cases it should be possible to reallocate all the preferences as if the initially elected candidate didn’t exist.

It…

Raymond A Francis

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:55:14 +1300

Nice to see someone able to shine some real light on the situation

Sacha

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:54:49 +1300

There were journalists there, fair enough. And in the control room, you'd think.

izogi

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:50:39 +1300

I agree with the really really stupid comment in an FPP situation, main reason coming to mind being that if the elected mayor ends up not being sworn in and the mayoralty were awarded to the runner up, it completely invalidates the votes of everyone who indicated a preference for…

Cecelia

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:47:25 +1300

Yes, but I expected Corin Dann or Susan Wood to pull them up on this – or the esteemed political scientist on the panel.

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:45:26 +1300

Boag and McCarten are backroom political operators, not journalists.

I did not call them journalists. My mention of "journalist" in the last paragraph is a reference to the journalists who were present on the panel.

Sacha

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:29:08 +1300

Boag and McCarten are backroom political operators, not journalists. Truthiness is to be expected if producers keep inviting such a limited range of conflicted commentators onto their shows.

Craig Ranapia

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:10:13 +1300

Oh, Graeme, don’t confuse things with your stupid research-based facts. At least, don’t do it if you want a job as a Herald columnist.

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:04:13 +1300

please don't make me regret leaving comments open :-)

Public Address

Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:04:13 +1300

Discussion from blog post.