Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Election '11 - Counterfactual #2

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 05 Dec 2011 19:12:40 +1300

I feel Banks and Dunne just gave a convincing argument for thresholds, and even for the abolition of electorates.

21000 / 12000 votes respectively, and they get made Ministers. I wonder if Tau Henare and Maurice Williamson might feel that starting their own micro-parties (again in the first case) might…

Zeke H

Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:26:31 +1300

Interesting issue, but this seems like the worst possible solution.

Voting for the electorate candidate who is going to come a distant third might be a nice gesture, but has the same effect as abstaining. Most minor party supporters still have a preference between the two main electorate contenders, which…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 04 Dec 2011 16:45:34 +1300

I wonder why we didn’t at least get the choice of a pure list system on our ballot paper?

The 1986 Royal Commission on the Electoral Commission didn't think one was worth of in-depth consideration. And the government this time wanted to use the same systems we were offered in…

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 04 Dec 2011 10:55:46 +1300

Thanks for that – it looks like a workable system. I'd note that they use a list-only system – and the Netherlands has four times our population and quite marked regional differences.

I wonder why we didn't at least get the choice of a pure list system on our ballot…

Michael Homer

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 21:16:56 +1300

Open lists sound great in principle, but I’ve yet to come across a concrete proposal that seems workable.
I am a fan of the Dutch system – print the whole list, one vote for an individual who can be elected in their own right, and distribute the excess votes down…

Ian Tinkler

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:32:42 +1300

Graeme, I really don't like it at all. In some places both main parties put up rubbish candidates with little merit and they both get in (as the lower polling candidate gets a high vote). In other the Greens and another party put up very strong candidate the vote is…

Sacha

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 17:07:02 +1300

where democracy means whatever Brownlee and Joyce think it does.. :)

Paul Campbell

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:35:59 +1300

And as I said above voters do already have a way to have a say about who's on a party's list – join the party and vote there (the law does say that lists must be chosen 'democratically' right?)

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 12:29:45 +1300

That’s a feature. If you don’t care, then you vote for a party and accept their choice of list. You had the option to express and opinion and didn’t take it.

My feeling is that not many voters will bother to rank the party list, so it will stay largely…

alwyn

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 12:06:57 +1300

I suspect that if the "best losers" made up the list MPs we wouldn't have had David Parker as an on/off candidate for the Labour party leadership.
He certainly wouldn't have made it to Parliament after the election. I think he may even have lost his deposit which isn't very…

Brent Jackson

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 11:48:53 +1300

Hans Versluys wrote :

It will do away with the need of an electorate vote as your list nominee gets to be your MP

No. I think you still need your electorate vote to choose your local MP.

Heather Gaye wrote :

I’d feel pretty weird saying I should be able…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 11:22:39 +1300

most won't bother

That's a feature. If you don't care, then you vote for a party and accept their choice of list. You had the option to express and opinion and didn't take it.

Angus Robertson

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 11:21:30 +1300

An open list might also have a negative effect on turnout.

Voter turnout falling – make the process more complicated.

Geoff Pritchard

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 10:12:15 +1300

Open lists sound great in principle, but I've yet to come across a concrete proposal that seems workable.

Allowing voters to rank their preferred party's list candidates in order has a big problem: most won't bother. (There is a lot of experience to this effect, from preferential-voting systems around the…

Sacha

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 08:36:23 +1300

that does sound strikingly familiar

JLM

Fri, 02 Dec 2011 08:09:58 +1300

Having the general public chose party lists is getting dangerously close to an American style primary system – personally I think that it should be up to the parties to decide how to choose their lists – a party with a system (or a country with a system) that elects…

Bren

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:43:19 +1300

How exactly would open lists work? They sound (in theory) to me to be the best way of "electing the unelected" – however I've never actually read anywhere how they'd actually work – which makes it hard to support. I'm going to write down how it works in my head…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:19:53 +1300

Tuo: that's why you join a party and get involved in the process of choosing their list – AFAIK the parties keep their memberships pretty close, you could probably join them all

Having the general public chose party lists is getting dangerously close to an American style primary system -…

Andrew R2

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:09:36 +1300

Although maybe there is merit in limiting the number of terms any MP can serve (to one less than the number of terms John Banks has served :-))?

Andrew R2

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:06:53 +1300

Why cater to people who can't grasp that MMP is not the same as FPP. In MMP voting you are asked two different questions:
1. Who do you want to represent your geographic area (aka electorate); and
2. Which party do you support.

No way should the result of the…

Tuo Lei

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 21:35:26 +1300

I feel pretty strongly about this. Say I want to vote for say, NZ First, and I don't want vote electors in other electorates having a say in my party vote choice. If I feel strongly as a voter in Christchurch that an MP that fertilises lemon trees effectively is…

Sacha

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 17:40:46 +1300

It will do away with the need of an electorate vote as your list nominee gets to be your MP. MMP would then need only one vote.

Not a necessary conclusion at all – though I like Brent's idea for ranking the list MPs. Others have pointed out not many…

Sacha

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 17:37:08 +1300

we would be elevating communities of geography above communities of other interests

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 16:55:01 +1300

How do I add this to the MMP review process?

You don't. If there aren't electorates, it's not really MMP. You'd also possibly find that John Key was the MP for about 80% of the electorates in the country :-)

Heather Gaye

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 16:48:11 +1300

I'd feel pretty weird saying I should be able to vote for a specific individual to represent my party preference – after all, that’s partly what the National campaign was based on – that people would ignore politics in favour of a personality. I want to pick a party because…

Hans Versluys

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 15:49:28 +1300

I'd go with Brent Jackson's suggestion. It will do away with the need of an electorate vote as your list nominee gets to be your MP. MMP would then need only one vote. Vote splitting would be a thing of the past as would coat-tail/tea pot MPs. Total list votes…

Brent Jackson

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 15:29:03 +1300

I like the idea of, instead of putting a tick into a party box, you can write a number. The number is that of the candidate on that party's list that you would most like to see in parliament. List seats are then allocated in order of most votes received.…

Geoff Pritchard

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:51:44 +1300

Political parties know very well which electorates (and sub-areas within electorates) are likely to yield them the most votes; they put a lot of effort into finding this information out, so as to plan their advertising spend efficiently. Under a best-runners-up system, they would simply place their candidates accordingly. The…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:01:59 +1300

Tariana Turia caught quite a bit of flak in The Press letters page yesterday for her ill-considered comments:

“Ill-considered” is putting it mildly. I can understand why Turia would be more than a little pissed off at condescending finger-waggling from Winston Peters and Shane Jones and listening to the usual…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 11:38:21 +1300

no strings attached...
....seems to suggest which side is complaining the most
Tariana Turia caught quite a bit of flak in The Press letters page yesterday for her ill-considered comments:
Yesterday, after the party lost its southern MP, Mrs Turia accused voters in Christchurch of being ungrateful for help during…

Sanya Baker

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 11:10:53 +1300

To my mind, one of the benefits of the current system of lists is that candidates with non-geographical constituencies, in other words representing communities of interest that are scattered geographically, can also attract support. If we were to move to a system based on electorate support even for list candidates…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 11:08:53 +1300

No blips on the radar over Chris Auchinvole who lost the West Coast Tasman seat seems to suggest which side is complaining the most

Well, it's not like his opponent can complain, having been a back-door MP himself!

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 11:06:05 +1300

There’s also the fact that parties would simply ensure that their favoured list candidates were also running in winnable seats.

Another reason to oppose it. Which, I'll note, I currently do :-)

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 11:00:47 +1300

The example you put up is pointless, as the runners-up were running in a first past the post competition in the weekend’s election, so someone like Gareth Hughes (a quality candidate) told people he only wanted the party vote (as did Katrina Shanks) so Ohariu became a Labour-United Future competition.…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 10:59:06 +1300

A candidate for National in South Auckland or Labour on the North Shore is guaranteed a poor showing, even if they're the smartest and most diligent politician out there.

I think that's a generalisation that needs to be made with some care – current North Shore ward councillor Ann Hartley…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 10:55:40 +1300

someone like Gareth Hughes (a quality candidate) told people he only wanted the party vote

I did think of that, but then realised that that's what absolutely every Green candidate was saying, so decided it could be held against him. The capriciousness of it all (you'd have parties doing better…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 10:27:06 +1300

Or about a certain Mr Goldsmith ....

Steve Curtis

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:42:39 +1300

I have only ever noticed complaints about 'losers' getting back in when its a labour MP who was an electorate MP and then "Nekk Minnit"

No blips on the radar over Chris Auchinvole who lost the West Coast Tasman seat seems to suggest which side is complaining the most

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:40:38 +1300

Exactly. The number of votes a candidate gets is largely determined by the demographics of the seat (as well as any tendency to vote tactically). A candidate for National in South Auckland or Labour on the North Shore is guaranteed a poor showing, even if they're the smartest and most…

Ben Clark

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:36:14 +1300

You have Denise Roche and Gareth Hughes doing badly because they were in an electorate with a tight two-way tussle – the 3rd (/4th!) place inevitably gets squeezed. Under MMP there's been a distinct shift to voting Lab / Nat in electorate seats from when we had FPP. More sensible…

Dave Guerin

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:22:05 +1300

The example you put up is pointless, as the runners-up were running in a first past the post competition in the weekend's election, so someone like Gareth Hughes (a quality candidate) told people he only wanted the party vote (as did Katrina Shanks) so Ohariu became a Labour-United Future competition.…

Tim Michie

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:00:54 +1300

The complaint of list members entering is often made against electorate candidates voted out and are now 'sneaking' back in. Placing best losers won't please those complainers. Whether they should be pleased is another question.

Public Address

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:00:54 +1300

Discussion from blog post.