Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: D-Day for Dunne (updated)

Kyle Matthews

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 23:54:03 +1200

While the report was marked as ’sensitive” it seems that it terms of the very limited distribution and the general way it was handled it was effectively indistinguishable from something marked “top secret”.

In limited distribution and the general way it was handled it was effectively indistinguishable from a cabinet…

Sacha

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:03:11 +1200

Danyl has thoughts on what evidence Winston has.

...

So my guess is that Peters has the emails that were handed over to the Henry inquiry.

...

Matthew Poole

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 14:30:02 +1200

pictures of Key in panties. .... Given he’s at the end of his political career anyway, it could be something rather minor, that he just happens to find very shameful.

The mind boggles!

Sacha

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 14:24:29 +1200

I'm not disputing your reading of the security classification. Winston is alleging matters beyond the Kitteridge report and appendices were also 'leaked'. I guess we'll see.

BenWilson

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 12:39:26 +1200

He thought he was just leaking a sensitive document, without grasping that the leak would be treated as gravely as the leak of a seriously top secret document.

I don't really know that his issue hinges around any laws being broken at all. It's enough that it's obviously him who…

Tom Semmens

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:06:42 +1200

Que? Aside from some appendices which were classified, the report was merely marked as “Sensitive”

Matthew Poole

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:55:12 +1200

You're suggesting something will come out that contradicts the leak investigation report's assertion that the Kitteridge report was merely marked as "Sensitive"? One would hope that such a basic fact would be correctly reported from the outset.

Or do you think that the classified appendices were leaked in contradiction of…

Sacha

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:49:38 +1200

the facts that are in the public arena

yet

Matthew Poole

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:32:52 +1200

Given the extraordinary level of security level accorded to what was a rather mundane report

Que? Aside from some appendices which were classified, the report was merely marked as “Sensitive”. That’s not a classification, in the sense of “national security threat”. The investigation report itself spells out where “Sensitive” fits…

Hebe

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:23:32 +1200

Politics isn’t a sport – it is about cold houses and hungry children, and for thirty years Dunne has acted as the ultimate grey man with no morals, enabling neo-liberalism and being available for hire to whoever would stoke his ego or whatever opportunist lobby group who knew his price…

BenWilson

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:17:33 +1200

it seems a little odd to ses him thrown out for doing something I’d want more from our government.

It doesn't seem odd to me, people always get thrown out for leaks. What seems odd is just how happy people are about it. As you say, what he actually did…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 09:23:54 +1200

Just as a side note. While I love the fact that Dunne has had his pay cut, given his history of doing whatever it took to keep his cushy job, it seems a little odd to ses him thrown out for doing something I'd want more from our government.

Essentially…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 10 Jun 2013 09:04:31 +1200

I guess it’s totally beyond the realms of possibility that Winston’s feeding a load of bullshit to inexplicably credulous hacks

A politician saying things that are not true???????

Tom Semmens

Sun, 09 Jun 2013 23:33:02 +1200

Given the extraordinary level of security level accorded to what was a rather mundane report (in itself a facinating insight to the compulsive secrecy of our political elites), it is amazing Dunne thought he could get away with it. I thought it was fascinating that Winston Peters suggested on the…

Craig Ranapia

Sun, 09 Jun 2013 22:16:42 +1200

Not so private when Winston gets to read them.

I guess it's totally beyond the realms of possibility that Winston's feeding a load of bullshit to inexplicably credulous hacks?

Rob Stowell

Sun, 09 Jun 2013 17:56:59 +1200

his activities are to be private.
Not so private when Winston gets to read them. It's quite incredible he can go where the inquiry couldn't. He seems to have many secret sauces :)

DexterX

Sun, 09 Jun 2013 09:05:09 +1200

Ironic that the Minister of Stupidity will vote in support of changes to the GCSB act that allows them to spy on NZers, but his activities are to be private.

DexterX

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 23:31:33 +1200

That's a risky strategy. National may not get in.

As I said just my guess – which is all one is left with when the “the info" is not disclosed.

The stupid that lead Dunny to become born again as the bank bench leader of a political non party will,…

Euan Mason

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 22:32:37 +1200

In reply to FletcherB:

““Entirely professional” doesn’t even allow for some flirting.

Are you sure? If I and a prostitute have an “entirely professional” relationship… I expect some sweet-talking or flattery could well be exchanged in either direction, no? Just because it’s not required doesn’t mean it’s ruled out entirely.”…

FletcherB

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 19:00:57 +1200

“Entirely professional” doesn’t even allow for some flirting.

Are you sure? If I and a prostitute have an "entirely professional" relationship... I expect some sweet-talking or flattery could well be exchanged in either direction, no? Just because it's not required doesn't mean it's ruled out entirely.

Euan Mason

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 17:42:25 +1200

"And what do you mean by “professional relationship”?

ION: today’s Tremain
http://garricktremain.com/media/PD1.jpg"

But "entirely professional" has much less wiggle room. You can tell someone key bits of a report without actually releasing it to them. "Entirely professional" doesn't even allow for some flirting.

Love the cartoon, even though it is…

BenWilson

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 16:55:05 +1200

In exchange for the resignation it is likely Dunny will help the seat pass to National and Dunny following the next election will get the cushy appointment of his choosing.

That's a risky strategy. National may not get in. I don't think it's like that at all. I think it's…

DexterX

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 16:03:44 +1200

A situation where I feel the chicken that crossed the road should have done so to die alone in the rain – I am proved wrong – again – as is the custom.

Taking care of number ones – I feel it in my bones – that although Dunny didn't…

BenWilson

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 13:46:03 +1200

Seems to be a thing for boomer journos to describe their peers that way. Not old. No, not me.

Heh. I'm in denial about being middle-aged, personally. At heart, I'm 25.

Paul Campbell

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 13:09:33 +1200

So, PD, what is your precise definition of, “leak the report”?

And what do you mean by "professional relationship"?

ION: today's Tremain
http://garricktremain.com/media/PD1.jpg

Sacha

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 11:04:49 +1200

But Dunne isn't middle-aged

Seems to be a thing for boomer journos to describe their peers that way. Not old. No, not me.

Sacha

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 10:58:28 +1200

Here's how Danyl characterises it.

...for no apparent reason other than that he liked and wanted to impress the journalist he leaked it to.

Dunne gave a tortured, rambling confession in his press conference while insisting that he didn’t actually leak the document. He just considered leaking it and talked…

BenWilson

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 08:56:48 +1200

But Dunne isn't middle-aged. Definitely not mid-life, unless he lives to be 120. A "senior moment" seems more likely to me.

Euan Mason

Sat, 08 Jun 2013 01:31:42 +1200

Experienced politicians are usually very careful with their words. “I did not have sex with that woman” comes to mind. So, PD assured the PM that he didn’t leak the report. He also says his relationship with Vance is entirely professional. The two other potential leakers are completely cleared. On…

Sacha

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 21:08:14 +1200

Jane Clifton offers a cogent explanation of the whole strange affair.

John Armstrong

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 21:06:36 +1200

He considered leaking, but didn't. Possibly because of the $15,000 fine that Warrior got.

Rob Stowell

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 20:44:43 +1200

He could have got away with Unity Future, without having to change the signage.
But think of all the Dunny jokes :)

BenWilson

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 18:23:51 +1200

He could have got away with Unity Future, without having to change the signage.

Ross Mason

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 18:23:03 +1200

But at least we got the GCSB report a wee bit earlier.........Thanks Peter.....

Keir Leslie

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 18:07:41 +1200

If Key's really ballsy he'll call a snap election now. It's quite high risk though, and he won't.

DexterX

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:29:57 +1200

Peter Dunne – "United Future" should have been called "Peter First" –
I would have been comfortable if he had done the “honourable thing” rather than resign. He has been consistent in his unwavering support of the expansion of gambling and the proliferation of alcohol – it is a pity…

Hebe

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:24:01 +1200

My inner headline writer is thrilled (and in tribute to the late Frank of the Dom): "Dunne like a dog's dinner" . I suppose he'll be retiring to Dunshaggin soon.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:12:40 +1200

I don't think it would suit the Maori Party, especially if they lose badly in Ikaroa-Rawhiti. They'll be wanting to keep their bums in the limos for as long as possible, so will give National support on anything up to the Treaty of Waitangi (Mere Nullity) Reversion Bill.

Hebe

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:00:07 +1200

It would suit National to call an election this year rather than next, given the way the polls are trending.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 16:42:51 +1200

Or to ensure that politics gets even more bought out by the rich, for whom the MPs salary is but a down-payment on this years second Ferrari.

Islander

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 16:29:07 +1200

WaTCH HIM RESIGN AS AN MP also – and then, the Nats will be quite squeezed in
their sweet and tender parts (I have no idea what or where these might be, never thinking they actually had any.) I am speaking of the parliamentary party of course, not of any…

Gabor Toth

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 15:36:42 +1200

He's just resigned as a Minister!!!

Keir Leslie

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:57:44 +1200

I thought it was clearly advice from the Clerk.

(And I don't particularly think that the Speaker should release advice from the Clerk. It's the Speaker's ruling, not the Clerk's, and the Speaker is the one responsible.)

Matthew Poole

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:37:32 +1200

I thought it was blindingly obvious that the Speaker was referring to advice from the Office of the Clerk.

Possibly to you. To those of us who're semi-dedicated political junkies who lack the deep procedural knowledge, however, it wasn't in the least bit obvious.

Sacha

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:19:43 +1200

And if so, why not say that explicitly when challenged on it?

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:17:08 +1200

Not unreasonably, either, when it’s a matter that intersects with operation of statute law.

I thought it was blindingly obvious that the Speaker was referring to advice from the Office of the Clerk.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 12:57:34 +1200

I guess to a lawyer like Peters “advice” must imply one of your colleagues got paid.

Not unreasonably, either, when it's a matter that intersects with operation of statute law.

Sacha

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 12:50:44 +1200

I guess to a lawyer like Peters "advice" must imply one of your colleagues got paid.

Brent Jackson

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 12:13:50 +1200

According to the draft Hansard, the Speaker didn't refer to "legal advice" :
Mr SPEAKER: This is a matter that is serious, but it is also a matter for which there is no precedent. I have decided, after taking advice and giving serious thought to this matter, to allow the…

Phil Lyth

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:52:22 +1200

lanmac, Graeme

"Draft" Hansard is published at http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/Debates/Drafts/ They explain on the page:

"The draft transcript is the first draft of the Hansard for a sitting day. Each speech is added to the transcript about 2½ hours after it has been given in the House. Speeches are removed once they…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:20:56 +1200

I don’t know how to find Hansard, but I think the Speaker might have used “legal advice” in his earlier comments yesterday, though thereafter he used just “advice” meaning I suppose “Jerry Advice.”

Yesterday's wasn't up in written form when I checked a few hours ago, but you can watch…

Ianmac

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:03:42 +1200

I don't know how to find Hansard, but I think the Speaker might have used "legal advice" in his earlier comments yesterday, though thereafter he used just "advice" meaning I suppose "Jerry Advice."

Rob Stowell

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:39:28 +1200

Shrewd enough :)

BenWilson

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:30:08 +1200

I reckon we should have a fixed allowance for all MPs of something like $200k to cover all personal and parliamentary expenses, with it left to the MP and their party (or their cat) as to how they apportion and spend that. (But they would have to produce accounts for…

Sacha

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:27:48 +1200

I don't see a reason why you wouldn't, unless perhaps it wasn't in writing?

Or if it means you have to disclose where/who that advice came from.

Sacha

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:26:12 +1200

Does seem out of his depth at times. Is he a shrewd man in person?

Sacha

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:25:27 +1200

The Speaker acts on formal advice and does not take the initiative.

Seems relevant

Rob Stowell

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:22:04 +1200

I'd like to think Labour and the greens were willing to give the speaker a fair go. Might be naive ... obviously parliament works best for all parties when the speaker has the respect of the whole house (excepting Winston- not sure who he respects!)
David is a neighbour and…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 10:07:56 +1200

While this is a tempest in a teacup, it’s another sign of growing disquiet with the speaker.

But which came first?

Is Labour opposed to the Speaker because of decisions like this, or is Labour opposed (in part) to decisions like this because it opposes the Speaker?

I suspect the…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:50:59 +1200

While this is a tempest in a teacup, it's another sign of growing disquiet with the speaker.
It's a very important role, and JK made a poor choice. Carter pretty clearly didn't want the job, and signaled he'd find it hard to shed years of party loyalty. JK's reasons for…

Andrew Geddis

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:37:03 +1200

McGee's advice was about how the Privileges Committee should look at it, right? Not that Parliament should debate to report before the decision was made?

Not certain. But given that the Committee only makes recommendations to the House, which the House then must either accept/reject, it wouldn't surprise me if…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:35:52 +1200

The following are the only previous Speaker's Rulings recorded on the issue of party recognition, for anyone interested:

PARTIES (SOs 34–36)

1 Whatever name a party is registered under with the Electoral Commission is beside the point. The name that a party wishes to be known by in the House…

Phil Lyth

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:34:25 +1200

Thanks to both Graeme and Andrew . . . I am more inclined to Graeme's interpretation, but finer minds than mine will prevail.

To remind Cameron that it is less than 20 years ago that every contested vote was taken by MPs voting individually, trooping through the lobbies. Party votes…

gavin long

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:31:46 +1200

There is a point to SO 34(3) if SO 34(1) is interpreted that United Future should no longer be a party.

SO 34(2)(b) allows a group of 6 or more MPs who are registered to apply to the speaker to get recognised. However, once the speaker has said they can…

Cameron Pitches

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:21:49 +1200

OK, so the Electroral Commission cancelling the registration of United Future does not affect its status as a Party in Parliament. Gotcha.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:17:19 +1200

He was called as United Future, that’s my point.

And it has been recognised as a Party in Parliament, so he would be.

Cameron Pitches

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:11:18 +1200

He was called as United Future, that's my point.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:10:49 +1200

Graeme, funding issues aside, what are the implications of a deregistered party’s vote being counted in passing legislation?

There aren't major implications. He still gets to vote, the difference is whether he's called as "United Future" or as "Peter Dunne" (just like Brendan Horan gets to vote).

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:08:22 +1200

That said … why won’t the Speaker release that advice? I recall that Hunt released David McGee’s opinion in the Duynhoven case (which was that he should delay his decision). Can’t see why Carter wouldn’t do the same, here.

It's not usual, but I don't see a reason why you…

Cameron Pitches

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:07:00 +1200

Graeme, funding issues aside, what are the implications of a deregistered party's vote being counted in passing legislation?

On Tuesday the Land Transport Management Bill passed its third reading. When the speaker tallied the votes he clearly states "United Future (1 vote in favour)"

If United Future have been struck…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 09:06:10 +1200

Really, much as I dislike Dunne, if somebody is in parliament and wants to form a party of one, then they should be able to.

I reckon we should have a fixed allowance for all MPs of something like $200k to cover all personal and parliamentary expenses, with it left…

Andrew Geddis

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:55:05 +1200

Oops – I was only half-listening to Parker while getting breakfast for the kids. Sorry!

But I promise I did listen very carefully to you, Graeme.

That said ... why won't the Speaker release that advice? I recall that Hunt released David McGee's opinion in the Duynhoven case (which was…

Tom Semmens

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:51:29 +1200

The common sense of Joe Public will slice through the Gordian knot of legalistic analysis of standing orders and the relevant legislation going on here, and simply see a guy getting $122,000 a year of their money for a party which no longer exists.

$122,000 is chicken feed to long-term…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:25:13 +1200

What possible difference does the terminological point make?

Parker was using it to show that the Speaker was being sneaky and corrupt. He was effectively accusing him of misleading the House for a short while. And it matters to that. He wasn't just saying the Speaker got the call wrong,…

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:24:21 +1200

Do we care about whether it is "advice" or "legal advice" or "procedural advice" or "interpretation advice" or "pink-with-purple patches advice"? What possible difference does the terminological point make?

Well, Andrew, you might want to put that question to David Parker because the 'terminological point' seemed rather important while he…

Tom Semmens

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:19:33 +1200

Do we care about whether it is “advice” or “legal advice” or “procedural advice” or “interpretation advice” or “pink-with-purple patches advice”?

Next you'll be telling Graeme Edgeler it doesn't matter what order his pens are arranged on his desk.

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:19:18 +1200

Well, Andrew, I just found it rather hard to see the compelling public interest in that amendment to the Electoral Act being rammed through under all-stages urgency. (You probably don't want me taking the "grotesque abuse of urgency" hobby horse out for a canter this early in the day.) David…

Andrew Geddis

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:17:16 +1200

David Parker made a statement about Carter claiming he had legal advice then admitting he had "advice" not legal advice. Carter clearly said advice, and the Winston Peters started calling it legal advice for some reason etc.

Do we care about whether it is "advice" or "legal advice" or "procedural…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:06:12 +1200

BTW, very well done on Morning Report Graeme.

I was somewhat disappointed I didn’t get the opportunity to correct the inaccuracies I kept hearing in the interviews before mine – if a political party wants me to take its outrage seriously, it should gets its facts straight, or I’m more…

Andrew Geddis

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 08:02:27 +1200

"Law aside, I’m rather enjoying the theatrical outrage from the very people who pushed through a retrospective change to the Electoral Act under all-stages urgency to avoid a by-election in New Plymouth."

Just as you’re enjoying the insouciant “what’s all the fuss – nothing to see here” response from the…

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 07:41:53 +1200

Law aside, I'm rather enjoying the theatrical outrage from the very people who pushed through a retrospective change to the Electoral Act under all-stages urgency to avoid a by-election in New Plymouth.

BTW, very well done on Morning Report Graeme.

Kumara Republic

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 00:38:24 +1200

because I had wanted a relaxing night
With the new desktop machine, I'm guessing?

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 00:20:41 +1200

By “popular” demand :-)

Public Address

Fri, 07 Jun 2013 00:20:40 +1200

Discussion from blog post.