Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Council Elections: STV Q&A

Steve Todd

Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:36:50 +1200

One thing's for sure, Susan. No way will your vote, or any part of it, be wasted.

Susan Snowdon

Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:23:56 +1200

I just ranked all 36 District Health Board candidates. It took half a day. I had to have a lie down...

Steve Todd

Wed, 25 Sep 2013 20:41:59 +1200

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Graeme. I would have missed it otherwise.

My attitude is, no matter what we do as voters, someone is going to win. Therefore, we might as well take the opportunity afforded us to have our say as to who the winners will be.…

bmk

Wed, 25 Sep 2013 12:21:25 +1200

I think it's related to their compulsory voting. If you want to final result to reflect the real preferences of the entire voting population, then mandatory exhaustive voting is the way to go about it. I don't think the intention is to increase the invalid vote, but to encourage voters…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 25 Sep 2013 11:36:21 +1200

On a semi-related note what is the rationale behind the Australian system making it compulsory to rank all candidates (ignoring the above-the-line option) doesn’t this just make it harder for people to vote and increase the likelihood of people not voting or just going from top-to-bottom?

I think it's related…

bmk

Wed, 25 Sep 2013 11:20:29 +1200

Thanks, that too explains it really well. I did actually read Graeme's entire post but didn't quite grasp the maths (I guess as there was a lot of other information to take in at the same time) but both Graeme and your replies to my post have explained it clearly.…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 24 Sep 2013 21:41:06 +1200

If you click on the link to the dunedinstadium website, you can access several articles about STV that I have written.

Steve – don't know if you'd picked this up, but Stephen Franks seems to like your work:

http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/graeme-edgeler-on-stv/

Steve Todd

Tue, 24 Sep 2013 20:35:43 +1200

Having now read Graeme's reply, I realise I omitted to complete my explanation by stating that, using the Lambton Ward example, the two Labour candidates would need a total of 5,020.5 votes for both to be elected (being a quota of votes each), which is 50% of the total of…

Steve Todd

Tue, 24 Sep 2013 20:17:42 +1200

Hi, bmk. I’ve just this minute seen that Graeme has beaten me to it, but, just to be polite, I’ll put up my response, anyway.

Think of it like this. In a single-seat election under STV, the winner needs 50% of the votes plus one, to be elected. No-one else…

bmk

Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:50:01 +1200

Thanks that explains it clearly, I knew I was missing something just didn't quite understand it and you've explained it really well.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:36:26 +1200

Sorry, I’m probably being dense but could you explain how to win two seats in a 3-seat ward you would need 50% off the vote? I would have assumed that 33.3% would be needed for each seat and to get two would need 66.6%. Or am I missing something?

If…

bmk

Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:12:17 +1200

But, to win two seats in a 3-seat ward, requires a party receiving 50% of the votes (quota 25%).

Sorry, I'm probably being dense but could you explain how to win two seats in a 3-seat ward you would need 50% off the vote? I would have assumed that 33.3%…

Steve Todd

Mon, 23 Sep 2013 18:51:48 +1200

I think the latter is more likely, too – concentration of resources.

In the Lambton Ward, for example, the election is wide open. Labour does not know with any certainty that its candidate, Mark Peck, is going to win one of the two vacant seats, despite the fact he is…

Keir Leslie

Mon, 23 Sep 2013 11:23:30 +1200

Yes --- 14 %age points on the party vote will be hard to make up. I'll be totally honest, I didn't go to the selection meeting, and haven't personally met Poto Williams (living on the other side of town as I do.) However, I'm told by people who've worked closely…

Hebe

Mon, 23 Sep 2013 11:04:25 +1200

It’s Labour and Christchurch East, at least so far as the election is concerned I suspect it doesn’t matter if no-one knows who she is.

Not so. The electorate has undergone huge change in its demographics, many properties and areas don't exist or are uninhabited (red-zoned or too damaged to…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:41:03 +1200

Who may be a great choice, but no-one outside the party knows who she is.

It’s Labour and Christchurch East, at least so far as the election is concerned I suspect it doesn’t matter if no-one knows who she is.

Hebe

Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:31:46 +1200

Keir, off topic but still politics: any ideas why Labour's Chch East selection chose Poto Williams? Who may be a great choice, but no-one outside the party knows who she is. It seems odd to pass over at least two strong local candidates in such a hammered-by-earthquakes area in favour…

Keir Leslie

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 16:21:34 +1200

I agree --- wouldn't quibble with that.

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 12:24:50 +1200

Claims that local body is non-party are weakly supported by evidence.

I only mean it to the extent that the proportions of people who will vote for someone simply because their rosette is coloured red or blue is much lower than at general elections. I suspect that Green affiliation is…

Keir Leslie

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 12:11:11 +1200

Local body politics is a bit of a nightmare for forcing weird strategic decisions, and can be very opaque from outside.

Claims that local body is non-party are weakly supported by evidence. If you look at Auckland/Wellington/Christchurch, there are clear party lines, if not as coherent or extensive as at…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 11:27:09 +1200

Both Labour and the Greens are running candidates in my ward. What I did wonder is why they are only running one candidate in a three seat ward – lack of people wanting to run, or a desire to put all their resources behind one candidate?

Pretty sure it's the…

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 11:19:41 +1200

That's most informative.

Hannah

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 20:46:20 +1200

Ta muchly

Steve Todd

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 18:31:00 +1200

It’s all to do with the differences between the percentages of votes received and the percentages of seats won in any given electorate, where the elections are party-based, Brent.

To explain, in a 5-seat electorate, if a party receives 40% of the votes, it will win two seats (40% of…

Christopher Nimmo

Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:28:26 +1200

I reckon it might be that people think there should be a "winner".

Steven Peters

Thu, 19 Sep 2013 15:22:02 +1200

Ireland has STV. We could have the North Ireland, and South Ireland, Eirrre.

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 19 Sep 2013 15:16:02 +1200

Why do all STV multi-seat electorates have odd numbers ? What’s wrong with 4 or 6 seat electorates ?

Australian Senate Elections have states electing 6 Senators.

And Wellington's Southern Ward elects two.

Brent Jackson

Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:22:09 +1200

Why do all STV multi-seat electorates have odd numbers ? What's wrong with 4 or 6 seat electorates ?

Kumara Republic

Thu, 19 Sep 2013 11:16:19 +1200

That’s democracy; that’s real choice. In this regard, and assuming Celia and John will prove to be the two leading candidates, you watch the votes for Nicola Young flow at least 2 to 1 to John upon her exclusion from the count.

Jack Yan is another to watch, he comes…

Scott A

Wed, 18 Sep 2013 22:03:47 +1200

I love the "Health Board elections are stupid" comment in the original post in the context of politics and elections in the United States of America.

Thank fuck, is all I can say really, that we don't live in a country where most every public post with legal responsibility is…

Sacha

Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:08:53 +1200

The 3-seat electorate would take in the bottom third or so of the North Island and all of the South Island.

Wow. Shows how distorted our 19th C system is.

Steve Todd

Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:07:06 +1200

Following on from Graeme’s reply, I played around with some figures a couple of years ago and worked out that if STV was being used to elect Parliament now (2008 and 2011), there would be something like 27 South Island MPs, 80 North Island MPs and 13 Maori electorate MPs.…

Graeme Edgeler

Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:10:42 +1200

STV for national elections would require new multi-member electorates. The Royal Commission recommended there be electorates with 3-7 MPs (with 80% of electorates with 5 MPs). We could still have Maori electorates, probably 3 electing 4-5 MPs. There would not be a party vote. Proportionality of the parties of the…

Steven Peters

Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:44:11 +1200

So at the National level, how would STV work under our current 70 electorates, or would new electorates be required with a different population base? . How many MP's would be elected from each electorate, how many candidates could each party put forward in each electorate. Could we still have…

Steve Todd

Tue, 17 Sep 2013 20:34:22 +1200

Rich, local elections in NZ are not an example of a 'no party' system. If the political parties that operate at the national level, want to operate at the local level, there is nothing to stop them. If they vigorously joined the fray, STV would enable voters to decide for…

Steve Todd

Tue, 17 Sep 2013 20:10:08 +1200

Open-list MMP would be an improvement, but not by much. All you're doing then, is casting your party vote by voting for a particular (i.e. one) candidate of your party. Under such systems, the party votes for the party usually still ensure the leading candidates of the party get elected…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:57:18 +1200

John Morrison

Is an example of what's wrong with a "no party" system. If he was an overt National candidate (as opposed to a NACT supporter pretending to be independent) he'd be an embarrassment to the party organization (and probably would never have been adopted as a candidate).

Why is…

Steven Peters

Tue, 17 Sep 2013 11:10:27 +1200

The thing is Steve, candidates are much of a muchness – it doesnt reallly matter who they put up, because voters want to see the Party they prefer holding the power strings in Parliament. Under MMP, if voters dont like the candidate their prefered party puts up in their electorate,…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 16 Sep 2013 01:00:58 +1200

Oops, I meant, "lips being disconnected from his brain".

Kumara Republic

Sun, 15 Sep 2013 22:19:08 +1200

Wonder if the DomPost simply wants John Morrison as Wellington Mayor? His lips being disconnected from his mouth was reported in the Granny but not the Dom. (Hat tip WCC Watch)

Morrison’s Showergate continues

Steve Todd

Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:02:28 +1200

Yes, I do mean that, which is exactly why I advocate what, for the time being, I refer to as true-STV. Under true-STV, the voters choose which candidates a party puts up in any given multi-seat electorate will be elected.

For example, if Labour put up David Cunliffe and Shane…

Steven Peters

Sun, 15 Sep 2013 10:32:56 +1200

I am not sure what you mean by 'people power' – are you meaning that you would prefer the system is
geared toward voters choosing candidates as individuals (and their beliefs) , rather than representatives of a party (and its beliefs). Short of banning political parties, how is this possible?

Steve Todd

Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:36:24 +1200

Australian Senate STV is not really true STV; it is Party PR, much like List PR, and MMP. For this reason, I have never paid much attention to it.

Just so you know where I’m coming from, in my view, most forms of PR strengthen party power and weaken people…

Steven Peters

Fri, 13 Sep 2013 10:42:23 +1200

Following the Australian election, we have the emergence of so-called 'micro-parties', which will have a presence in the Australian parliament, and thereby be of political influence in the overall mix of voting power. This is a term I havent heard before, and I expect we could hear in the rhetoric…

Steve Todd

Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:25:41 +1200

I have spent some time thinking about how people could vote “in tiers”, as you would like to do, and have concluded there is only one way of doing it. Tim McKenzie suggested (in response to you in 2010) that a “Condorcet method, …, could cope”, but there would still…

Steven Peters

Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:23:36 +1200

I can see who the lawyer is among us. As an aside, isn't it interesting how the word 'reasonably' (and its converse) is such a 'catch all' phrase, or 'knot', when in reality it requires thorough and precise unpicking. To the majority of parties in the house, the EC's proposed…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 01 Aug 2013 15:56:31 +1200

Yet this would be ‘unreasonably’ low for the Electoral Commission, who would not go below 4%.

The Electoral Commission thought that anything lower than 3% would be unreasonably low.

Secondly, and correct me if I am wrong, under the current 5% threshold, theoretically there could be up to 20 parties…

Steven Peters

Thu, 01 Aug 2013 13:21:25 +1200

Yes, well put. If we had a ‘five seat threshold’ (which sounds perfectly reasonable) this translates to roughly 3.7% of the party vote. Yet this would be ‘unreasonably’ low for the Electoral Commission, who would not go below 4%. It was worried about too many parties in the Parliament –…

Brent Jackson

Wed, 31 Jul 2013 22:30:22 +1200

It's interesting isn't it. Talking about a 3 or 4 seat threshold seems eminently reasonable. It's only when you convert to percentages that you think whoa, that might be a bit small. But I think that's because you automatically compare it to the current, and EC recommended percentages, which, IMhO…

Steven Peters

Wed, 31 Jul 2013 11:51:07 +1200

On second thoughts, a ‘four seat threshold’ equates to a little under a 3% party vote threshold. Would this adequately compensate small parties for the loss of the one seat electorate threshold? – maybe not. They may want lower one, so could we have a three seat threshold, as you…

Steven Peters

Tue, 30 Jul 2013 17:37:13 +1200

Exactly. It shifts the debate over to the question of 'when does a so-called 'small ' party become a so-called 'ineffectual' party?. The Electoral Commission has seemingly decided, tout court, that anything under a five or even six seat party (4% threshold entitlement) is 'ineffectual'. This assumption needs to be…

Brent Jackson

Tue, 30 Jul 2013 15:21:38 +1200

Given that the voting percentages are variable to seats proportioned, I would have thought the EC would have proposed a minimum ‘seat threshold’ to enter parliament, instead of a ‘vote threshold’. Why not a a ‘5 seat’ threshold, which is a little under their favored 4% party vote threshold. Why,…

Steve Todd

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 20:51:43 +1200

It is pretty clear where most candidates are coming from. They reveal themselves pretty clearly by which wards they stand in, by their candidate profile statements, and by their voting record once on council, etc.

The last thing we want is the national parties dominating local government, as they do…

Keir Leslie

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 20:01:26 +1200

Steve, Rich has in fact answered those questions: he clearly does want to reduce the number of independents in local body politics, seeing them (correctly, in my view) as (a) broadly deceptive and (b) corrosive to good governance, voter choice, and accountable government. It's a pretty clear stance.

Steve Todd

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 19:09:46 +1200

In the year following the local elections, the Department of Internal Affairs puts out it's booklet, Local Authority Election Statistics. The 2010 edition is accessible at their website.

In past years, the statistics included actual numbers of members who were party-aligned, independents, or no party. In 1999, I think, I…

Steve Todd

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 18:11:59 +1200

>>> would not get into parliament – correct? <<<

Yes, correct. You would have to get 3% of the party vote to qualify to participate in the seat allocation process.

Steven Peters

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:22:09 +1200

You say " A party ‘earns’ 4 complete seats in a 120 seat House at 3.333% of the vote."...yet on the figures you gave earlier, the mean is about 2.8%. That seems a substantial rounding (down), if that is what it represents. Any thoughts on my suggestion of a say,…

Keir Leslie

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:44:12 +1200

Probably worth distinguishing between the (relatively few) big urban councils and the large numbers of rural and provincial councils. The ways that rural councils appear to work is that everyone is elected in the farmer interest, and so there's no need to muck around with partisan identification.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:34:01 +1200

85% of all local councillors in NZ are independents / No Party

Do you have a reference for that? Even if they purport to be non-party, many of them have thinly hidden party affiliations and have often run for parliament as party candidates (Prenderghast, for instance). Not many people get…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:14:08 +1200

if a party were to achieve, say 4.40% of the party vote, it would receive five list seats (is it rounded down, not up?).

It’s not really rounded at all – they just haven’t gotten enough votes to get more – but if you want to look at it that…

Steven Peters

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:02:49 +1200

To take your last point first, Steve, the Electoral Commission has proposed the abolition of the one seat threshold, correctly in my view, but they have not adjusted the party vote threshold sufficiently to compensate small parties for its loss.
I agree with your view about the party vote threshold…

Steven Peters

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:32:34 +1200

Thanks for this Graeme. So we are looking at roughly 0.4,1.2, 2.0, 2.8, 3.7 and 4.6 for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 list seats respectively. Assuming the operation of the EC recommended 4% party vote threshold, if a party were to achieve, say 4.40% of the party vote,…

Steve Todd

Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:38:41 +1200

Regarding my graduated threshold proposal, I'll get back to you in the next day or two. It is based on my objection to the fact that, if a party gets 5% of the party vote, it gets 6 seats; one vote less than 5%, it gets no seats. That means…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:32:31 +1200

Prior to the 2011 election, I did historical numbers for a new party crossing the one-seat threshold, for each of previous elections, in order to, for example, show how many votes an ACT, United Future, or Mana Party might need to get a list seat. Numbers below:

1996: 0.39% (1…

Steven Peters

Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:20:31 +1200

A graduated threshold at the National level? I would be interested in hearing what you mean ().
Could anyone tell me what % of the party vote would be required for a party to be entitled to three MP's in Parliament (and 2 or 4 MP's if you have the…

Steve Todd

Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:15:15 +1200

All along, when people have said they would like to see MMP in local government, I have assumed they actually meant MMP. It seems to me that what you are describing is Party List PR (without the single-seat wards), and perhaps that is what Rich means, too.

Either way, you're…

Steven Peters

Sun, 28 Jul 2013 08:48:16 +1200

Thanks for that informative post, Steve. Simply because candidates call themselves so-called 'independents', does not precludes MMP at the local level. If you are standing as Mr Frank Lee, Independent, then that is the name of your party, as in the Jim Anderton Party. You only require a membership of…

Steve Todd

Sun, 28 Jul 2013 08:30:12 +1200

The link to the 2002 Irish General Election is reproduced again, here. Hopefully, it will work now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_2002

Steve Todd

Sat, 27 Jul 2013 15:39:14 +1200

Thanks for that, Steven.

I suspect Rich does not realise that about 85% of all local councillors in NZ are independents / No Party, so it's hard to see how MMP could possibly work. I would be interested in his thoughts on that.

Judging by a previous post, he wants…

Steven Peters

Sat, 27 Jul 2013 11:42:47 +1200

Thank you for your apology – accepted. Yes MMP unsuited to current local/health elections. However, I wouldn’t give up on STV for national elections just yet, if I were you, as I think dissatisfaction may grow with MMP, if the party vote threshold is not reduced significantly. After 2014 there…

Steve Todd

Fri, 26 Jul 2013 20:52:23 +1200

After many years of mayors being directly elected, I, too, have come to the conclusion that a return to the system whereby the newly-elected councillors choose / elect one of their own to lead them, is preferable (boring, but preferable), for the reasons you give.

But, I disagree with your…

Steve Todd

Fri, 26 Jul 2013 20:05:33 +1200

Hello, Steven—

I acknowledge your response to my response to your message of a day or so ago.

Firstly, I apologise for coming across as patronising. I am a staunch advocate and self-appointed defender of STV, and that comment of yours that I reproduced, did not sit well with me…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:29:25 +1200

The problem I have with STV is not so much the use of the system for councillors (although I think MMP would be better) but in the direct election of a mayor per se.

By electing a figurehead directly, rather than having a person with the confidence of a majority…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 26 Jul 2013 10:10:49 +1200

At the national level, could STV as you propose it, secure for parties that gained say 3%, of first preference votes, 3% of the seats in the House.? If it did, a might be a convert.

If the electorates were large enough, yes. If they were 3-5 MPs each? No.

Steven Peters

Fri, 26 Jul 2013 09:57:25 +1200

Being patronizing doesn't strengthen your argument,Steve.
Local and DHB elections may be different, but the Royal Commission on Electoral Reform found 'MMP is clearly superior to STV in providing proportionality of seats to votes, and to do so consistently'.
However, the role of party politics is, ostensibly, less important in…

Steve Todd

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:47:43 +1200

>>> However, the convoluted STV voting system would not enable voters to divide power in ways that reflect the diversity in local communities, particular in providing representation to marginalized groups. But maybe that is its real purpose. <<<

Oh dear, Steven, how wrong you are. I think you need to do some reading, my friend. For starters, allow me to refer you to the papers mentioned in my first post, at page 1, above; the second paper, in particular. The bits I would particularly like to make you aware of are reproduced, below--

>>> (c) The sorting of voting papers according to first preferences in effect…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 17:24:51 +1200

So, to be clear, Kerry was properly elected

No dispute from me.

Steve Todd

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 17:20:11 +1200

I have been reading through your October 2010 “STV Q&A” and the responses it generated. In an exchange with Paul Campbell regarding the outcome of the 2007 mayoral election in Wellington City, you stated that the incumbent, Kerry Prendergast, “was declared elected without having an absolute majority of votes cast.” This…

Brent Jackson

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:27:17 +1200

But maybe that is its real purpose.

Its real purpose is to provide a good voting system, where "good" is defined as meeting the fairness criteria of voting systems.

Note that Arrow's_impossibility_theorem proves that no voting system can meet all the criteria, so every voting system will have advantages and…

Steven Peters

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 08:57:12 +1200

I agree Leslie – very good points. the same ideologies that drive national level politicians and politics, operate at the local level – but a bit more 'down home and folksy'. It would be better if candidates and local body 'groupings' were more transparent in their allegiances. However, the convoluted…

Craig Young

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 08:44:42 +1200

Rich, from what I understand, the Auckland supercity enabling bill expressly did not allow for STV in Auckland Council elections, so the current state of that council is attributable to FPP in local council elections. Part of the problem is that the electoral reform movement gave up after achieving and…

Keir Leslie

Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:52:04 +1200

Functionally we do already have political parties at local body level, most of whom are directly tied to central government parties. The main difference is how open they are: unlike the communists, the right would appear quite happy to conceal their views and aims, whereas the left (broadly) appear to…

Paul Campbell

Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:28:08 +1200

One thing to think about here is that the system is STV "single transferable vote" – you only have one vote, you don't have a second vote if the first vote has already been stuck to a viable candidate.

In a mayoral (or any race with one winner, much simpler…

JonathanM

Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:09:38 +1200

To expand a little on Graeme's response:

With a mayoral STV, why are the lowliest second votes counted first? What if the top two candidates were very close, but the centre left had just edged out the centre right option, and the more extreme lefty was third and extreme righty…

Graeme Edgeler

Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:56:13 +1200

By taking fourth places’ 2nd votes it could tip the second choice into the mayoralty despite the majority of voters choosing left wing politicians.

Unlikely I know.

Not possible. Someone has to get over half the votes. If left supporters all rank the centre-left candidate above the centre-right candidate, and…

Myles Thomas

Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:40:11 +1200

Steve Todd

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 19:42:01 +1200

>>> DHB elections have a lot of candidates because there are only 20 DHB regions – ie electorates – in the country. FPP requires as much work for the informed voter – you need to read the candidates’ bios and decide who you like. You either tick up to that…

Steve Todd

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 19:26:38 +1200

Yes, I think the Hutt Valley DHB used the incorrectly named pseudo-random ordering of candidates (same random order on all voting documents), and the regional council used alphabetical ordering. It's hard to find these things out without going to a lot of trouble.

Wellington City and Capital & Coast DHB use…

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:32:01 +1200

As asides, I, too, am pleased the DCC has gone with random candidate-ordering.

At the last (or maybe last but one?) local body election, the Wellington councils each used different methods. One went for alphabetical, one for a single random ordering, and one for multiple random orderings (i.e different on…

BenWilson

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:27:55 +1200

I’d prefer to just be able to vote Green, get (if we succeed) a Green/Labour council that implements a policy programme associated with those parties.

You can do that under STV. If Greenness is your bag, you rank the candidates on that criterion. Indeed, you can rank within the Green…

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:06:39 +1200

There *are* parties in local government.

In Auckland, STV results in ad-hoc alliances. City Vision is an alliance of the local Labour, Green and Alliance Parties with community independents. Similarly, NACT form "Communities and Residents" (the former CitRats) but aren't as upfront about this.

In Wellington, we have STV and…

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 16:51:13 +1200

Given the esteem with which the Electoral Commission is regarded both nationally and internationally, I think we’re probably OK to have that dependence. I’d be more concerned if it was the appointed overlords of ECan who where running the regional elections.

The Electoral Commission plays no role in counting the…

Sacha

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 16:50:33 +1200

a party getting 5% is going to get no representation, most likely

That's one seat on a 20-person governing body

BenWilson

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 16:28:30 +1200

If that were true, then why are they not called Labour and National now?

Ben McNicoll

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 16:11:14 +1200

True, but there is no need for them to be those parties.

Yes, it is true that there is no need for them to be those parties. But I would suggest that any new parties forming at local level would be at a serious disadvantage in name recognition and tribal…

BenWilson

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:56:08 +1200

The problem with an MMP approach at local govt level, as I see it, is that if the party lines are explicitly the same as national (small n) political parties (and they would almost certainly have to be to be elected), you’d end up with a situation where each local…

Hilary Stace

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:34:57 +1200

I am a great supporter of STV. And elections. If we didn’t have Health Board elections they would be comprised entirely of Tony Ryall’s appointees. Health Board elections were stopped under the last National government’s round of health reforms and the boards were appointed – no local democracy at all…

Steve Todd

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:23:01 +1200

Yes, exactly Paul, although I would drop the words "in some sense". That is one of the many reasons, contrary to Rich's view, why STV is the very best electoral system yet devised by humankind. And we in New Zealand are so lucky to have the very best, up-to-date, computer-compatible…

Sacha

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:35:34 +1200

wise observation

Ben McNicoll

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:30:04 +1200

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 13:35:11 +1200

STV is better than FPP, but not much.

We could have MMP for local government, with some councillors being elected by ward and some on lists, and then the council electing a leader/mayor with majority support.

It'd stop local government being a biggest-ego competition and mean that council;s would usually…

Paul Campbell

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 12:53:15 +1200

yes in some sense STV allows you to both choose between the lesser of two evils while still voting for the candidate you want

Isabel Hitchings

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 12:21:29 +1200

I hate STV voting for health boards because it's often a huge list of people with often relatively low public profiles. Researching all those people enough to feel confident about ranking them precisely is not something I have the time and energy for. I'd love to be able to vote…

Steve Todd

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 11:36:05 +1200

While it is perfectly valid to vote, simply by placing a unique first preference beside the name of the candidate you most wish to see elected, by doing so, you are, as Graeme has already pointed out, risking your vote being wasted, in whole or in part.

A classic example…

Steve Todd

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 10:51:37 +1200

Papers that I have written, explaining how STV works, can be accessed at the end of the post here – http://dunedinstadium.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/in-defence-of-stv-2/.

Matthew Poole

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 10:07:47 +1200

we have to depend on the accuracy and independence of the people doing the data entry

Given the esteem with which the Electoral Commission is regarded both nationally and internationally, I think we're probably OK to have that dependence. I'd be more concerned if it was the appointed overlords of…

Hebe

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 22:48:44 +1200

I understand (polsci major back when Nigel Roberts was a lecturer) the system. I understand the advantages and disadvantages. But two ticks are easy; and easy is appealing in a busy world. I think poll turnouts would go through the floor if the voting process is captured by theorists, to…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 22:33:38 +1200

The huge problem with STV is that it is complicated compared with FPP.

Vote for your favourite candidate with a 1. And your second favourite candidate with a 2. Rank as many candidates you like. You don't have to rank them all if you don't want to.

You do not…

Brent Jackson

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 22:27:52 +1200

Not to mention that voting for Judith Aitken is just about the worst possible use of your vote even if you really like her – so many other people vote her #1 that by voting for her you are really just giving up 45% of your voting power (on 2010…

Hebe

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 22:21:05 +1200

The huge problem with STV is that it is complicated compared with FPP. At least the present MMP system, flawed as it is, is understood by most voters. To me anything that could deter voters from doing the deed is to be avoided given the abysmally low turn-outs in the…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 21:31:38 +1200

BTW this analysis (by James who posts here) is an excellent description of the STV vote counting process (including a cool graph) in that particular Dunedin election- you can see how low polling candidates drop out during counting and what happens as their votes are redistributed

Notice how the top…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 21:23:12 +1200

Thanks that's a great explanation – I want to expand on why you should cast more than one vote in a multi-representative election :

– suppose the person you choose first is really popular – they get 3 times the number of first round votes they need to get elected…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 15:22:00 +1200

Health board elections would be less stupid if the boards were actually independent and had the ability to set the amount of tax they needed to operate.

Yes. In such circumstances I believe they would be required.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 15:20:57 +1200

Health board elections would be less stupid if the boards were actually independent and had the ability to set the amount of tax they needed to operate.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 15:09:43 +1200

The staff and medical care the boy received were Absolutely Awesomely Amazing though.

Seconded. Our wee lad lost a bit more weight than anticipated after birth due to feeding issues, and it ended up being a week before we got him home from National Women's. The medical staff were, with…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:49:43 +1200

I don’t think it is a good idea to rank everyone. There are some candidates I don’t want at all so not ranking them means they don’t even get considered.

They do still get considered, but based only on the votes of other people. Leaving people un-ranked means that, once…

Hebe

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:44:37 +1200

getting screwed over with car-parking costs

At a minimum here: the shakes took out the main parking building, the tunnel access underneath the very busy intersection, and contractors repairing huge swathes of the hospital of necessity have closed many parks for the public and staff. Frigging nightmare is the least…

Christopher Nimmo

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:42:12 +1200

Consider yourself warned, Judith Aitken!

Sacha

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:37:23 +1200

we shouldn't be holding boards responsible for this, we should be holding the Minister responsible

and Board members have to pledge fealty to the Minister, not the people who elected them.

Sacha

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:36:21 +1200

not ranking them means they don't even get considered

not so

Hilary Stace

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:34:30 +1200

I don't think it is a good idea to rank everyone. There are some candidates I don't want at all so not ranking them means they don't even get considered. For example, in a ward which is electing three people I might only put a 1 by the only candidate…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:34:58 +1200

That is why Health Board elections are important; and often I admit to at best giving the candidate bios a cursory glance, ranking those I know of and leaving the rest.

I consider Health Boards are stupid because we shouldn't be holding boards responsible for this, we should be holding…

Sacha

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:25:46 +1200

answer: corporate contracted catering

even without Ryall's 'reheat and eat' proposals, yes

Hebe

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:23:49 +1200

Health Board elections are stupid

They are. And weird. Until this week. In the hours of staying with my very-unwell son in public hospital I got to thinking thinks like: why have awful food in hospitals when good food can be cheaper, easier to serve and produce (answer: corporate contracted…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:43:17 +1200

I once voted against a candidate I met at an election meeting who was speaking to someone after the meeting and said something like "what most people don't know about STV is ..." before launching into an entirely misleading description of the STV voting system. I do not expect people…

Public Address

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:43:17 +1200

Discussion from blog post.