See, two can play this trolling game.

Yeah. I don't really see 'extending sitting hours' as requiring urgency. There's nothing urgent about sitting for another two hours so that we can progress these things in the normal process of parliament.

I would imagine if…

As DPF frequently points out in, there is urgency,…

I could see an argument for a movement into urgency requiring a higher proportion of votes, which would mean that in order to do…

Or the way the Electoral Act was fucked around with under extreme urgency, for no other reason than because nobody wanted a…

Yep. Was there any rationale that went with the use of urgency there?

I'm somewhat dubious. It would only have that effect if it's makeup wasn't dominated by the same party/ies that…

Um. Late to this, and may be missing the point, but "Piggy" was Muldoon.
ETA: Ah, I see further on that it's the line not the person. As you were.

The First Labour Government made a whole bunch of radical changes that have been of huge benefit to the country.

I can see no evidence that Upper…

Each Party (even United Future and the Progressives) is represented by one member. Labour and National by two. And the Speaker chairs. It generally makes decisions by consensus, or close to…

Is…

Separate story in the Press about that, complete with cutesy quote marks.

Official documents, released to The Press, reveal that Ngai Tahu contacted DOC in September to ask why it was not consulted.

DOC staff replied "no concession had been processed or issued" and Clark's…

As is customary, at this stage in the parliamentary cycle the Standing Orders Committee is currently reviewing the Standing Orders in order to make recommendations to be adopted for the next term. I am…

Sure, but procedures can be changed. In the case of urgency, they definitely need to be.

It's difficult to legislate against immoral leadership. Yet another prime example from the current lot are revelations of Ministerial interference in DoC renewing grazing permits to pollute Lake Ellesmere – without consulting the co-managing…

In NZ's case, most of what's been radical has been of very, very arguable benefit, especially when it's been shoved through under urgency.

I guess my biggest concern with how…

Yes, unless they're all legal experts, I can't see them driving quality into our laws. They're more likely to just slow things down that are against their own agenda. Which is sometimes good, sometimes not.

I've got a similar…

A memorable piece of political history.

Which is a nice segue back onto…

Gough Whitlam would disagree; I also don't think that the Australians have a generally higher quality of law than we do. Obviously this isn't something you can test objectively. In general upper houses seem very civics, and not particularly…

Say MMP has 45% of preference, 20% want FPP, 15% PV, 15% STV and 5% SM (just for instance). (and MMP supporters who answer the second question split 19%/14%/14%/3%).

Then that'll be 45% for MMP and 55% for another…

I was in Oz when there was a threat of a double dissolution. Wish I had taken more interest in the why's and wherefore's at the time…

I never knew that Geoffrey Palmer was known as "Piggy". Learn something new .... etc.

(I'm pretty sure it's a line from "Unbridled Power", but am open to a reference.)

No, possibly not. But if constituted sufficiently separately from the lower house it would put an end to using urgency to avoid having to answer awkward questions from those uppity voters about why you're introducing measures that…

I'd probably just get rid of it, but use a modified Sainte-Laguë method to make it slightly harder for a party to get a single seat.

I recognise that this might not find favour with enough…

Perhaps I’ll explain … the referendum questions are as follows:

Part A

Should New Zealand keep the Mixed Member Proportional Representation (MMP) voting system?

O I vote to keep the MMP voting system.
O…

Labour had an election manifesto. A friend who was a member and left to go to NLP took delight at waving it at Roger Douglas when he came to talk on campus once,…

Ah, right. But back in the day I thought it was lower – well, zero, but I was wrong. It seems that it was (once) as low as 1%.
Germany is like us, with a 5% threshold.

What do you reckon Graeme, get…

I like the way you're thinking. Vote for review and select MMP as your preferred option?

We all have these moments of madness.

It's in my nature to suspend disbelief…

There is a 2% threshold in Israel.

There is a 2% threshold in Denmark.

There is…

There are two questions in the referendum.

You can kinda look at the first question as asking:

__Would you prefer:
1. The holding of a review of the MMP electoral system…

Hah. I was a fully fledged Libertarian (in the Ayn Rand sense of the term) for about two weeks, or maybe it was a couple of months. I can’t recall. We all have these moments of madness. (Not that I think there’s no value…

I'm somewhat…

What were those reasons, out of curiosity: the tail waging the dog thing, or something else?

I always supported MMP, but I now think even more that…

I don't think the "coalition of losers" scenario…

Well, after they (being an entirely hereditary, wholly unelected body) tried to thwart the actions of a government with a substantial popular majority based on a clear policy platform (income tax/social security and Irish home rule).

Not to mention the army acting in parallel to…

Staggered elections is a must for an upper house, if only to avoid being of the same proportions as the lower house. Half the UH every general election, maybe, or even a third. Long terms is a good way to…

No. But it was when it was abolished, which is why it was abolished.

An effective upper house would’ve put paid to National ramming through changes to education, employment and sentencing legislation under urgency and with near-immediate effect.

A proportionally-elected upper house would still have a National/ACT majority. It might have delayed things by a couple of weeks, but you really have to play…

Why the hell did we get rid of it?

It didn't do anything. It was wholly appointed, and agreed to whatever the House wanted, frequently with little debate.

Wouldn't a 2nd House or an Upper Chamber limit the powers of parliament? We used to have one and it seemed like the expedient thing to do back then. Why the hell did we get rid of it?

I think that if the National party & Act were willing to pass that law they…

Politicians with moral limits? Such a quaint idea...

You are right that we elect people to Parliament, not policies, but at least some of us vote…

You have a mandate to form a government if you have the votes in the House; you have a mandate to pass laws if you have the votes in the House — or at least, as far as anyone under heaven, or outside the polling place, cares.

I dispute your…

Sadly also the way the media continue to misrepresent it too

Yes true.

And I deleted a further paragraph which raised the possibility of larger STV electorates reducing the likelihood of Hide/Anderton etc making it to…

As soon as I learned about their intricate procedure I realised it would be catnip for Graeme.

"Thirty members of…

http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publish/31/article_9741.php

"What about Germany? In order to put this debate in focus, a short description of LGBT rights in Germany might be in order. It really didn't begin until…

In such a system, voters would either choose a party (and get their list rankings) or rank individual candidates within their electorate.

This…

The usual case in Australia is…

The Australian experience with multi-member electorates and large numbers of candidates is that numbering every candidate is beyond the capacity of much of the electorate. I've scrutineered and seen that in action (perhaps…

The question you have to ask is: would I prefer one of those MPs to be John Key or Roger Douglas. If you really don't care, and would be exactly as (un)happy with John Key as Roger Douglas, then don't vote for either of them.
This is getting…

My only problems are the strength it gives to the Party, some of whom don't have many members but whose bosses do get to chose who we get to vote for (smoke…

I however disagree that "parties elected to government have a mandate to implement the policies on which they campaigned – is a core feature of democracy"

It's a core feature of our version of democracy.

To me…

That wasn't what Graeme…

democracy also incorporates parties campaigning on platforms

It seems to me you are basing a lot of your thesis on the idea that having campaigned on a platform should allow the majority to enact that platform.

To me that is the whole problem with our system and is a legacy…

I am frantically on-sending them to other family (Pakeha/Nat )voters so they at least understand there's a bit more than "Paul says this" or…

STV results in similar proportionality to MMP if the number of members elected in each electorate seat leads to the same effective threshold (1/n = MMP%). So for our current 5% threshold that would mean 20 MPs elected in each electorate.

I'm not sure that's necessary. A party with 5%…

1993 referendum was between FPP and winner of that vote, which was MMP.

Um… but isn’t that kind of the point then? Call me crazy, but shouldn’t the government be doing what we – the people – want and if they don’t we vote someone in who does.

That's the point for us. But it's bad for you if you're a national MP…

I don’t quite see the argument for STV (I’m not sure whether Graeme is making it or presenting it, barrister fashion) ... Is the idea that STV provides a figleaf of proportionality, but doesn’t interfere with Labour and Nationals right to govern absolutely?

No.

I wasn't making the argument for…

If a majority in parliament is composed of a majority of…

If STV results in a similarly proportionate result to MMP, then it’s quite possible that the largest single party will fail to form the government because s different alignment…

Labour and National should be able to form a coalition government one day – if the Germans can, why not us?

Because, in the medium-term, it won't work for either of them.

If National forms a government, and you don't like what it's doing, then Labour can say "vote for…

If you could explain how only part of my vote goes to candidates down my list, and also why I should vote for someone I believe should not be elected I’d appreciate it.

I've done my best at the first in the comment above. I'll now try the second:

Imagine…

First, I’m not aware of an STV system actually used where lower preferences count less than higher ones

It's perhaps easiest with an example:

There are 60 voters, electing 2 people under STV from 4 candidates. As soon as a candidates get more than 20 votes, they are elected (because…

It isn't about any single party winning. Getting 48% of the vote doesn't make you the winner, and NZ needs to get out of that line of thinking.

MMP is about creating a government that better…

One of the criteria for a party's electability…

"Ironic" in that the valid formation of a new party under MMP, could lead to the demise of MMP.

All very unlikely, however. I don't think our immigrant population…

The argument here, when stripped down to its essence, appears to be that Guyon Espiner gets to decide what is a legitimate coalition government and what is not.

No. Guyon Espiner had someone ask 1000 people their opinion on a matter and he reported the results.

And John Key claimed…

Really? Even in the off-chance that they do, I don't see it being a "nightmare scenario" unless they then started…

I didn’t see that shifty little Tory son-of-a-bitch on any party list last election, so why is this so? Wouldn’t it be…

Hypothetically, I wonder if this could be resolved with an extra round of acceptance voting. ie. People vote as present based on party campaigns, parties propose a coalition…

That may need to be taken with a fair pinch of salt. Didn't the Greens feature prominently in a number of policy announcements that were seen as being a tad too "I know better than you" – a…

However, Graeme’s bumper sticker has provided me the best reason to return to FPP that I have heard of. Maybe my family and friends were right after all.

Unfortunately, while there's some truth in it, there's also a lot untruth.

1. A lot New Zealanders rejected the two broad church…

After a short reflection, my recollection of MMP coming in was because there was a huge dissatisfaction with the way that a government which had a minority of votes in aggregate could push through policies that were quite high risk (thinking of the Muldoon government…

I would imagine from a political party point-of-view, one of the risks of pre-announcing coalition partners is that you've effectively tagged 'vote for us' as also meaning "and these guys too".

Take National/Act for example. I would imagine if they…

If you want to introduce…

I also don’t understand the issue with pre-announcing coalition preferences. It seems to me that (a) if you are willing…

Perhaps it wasn't some of Crosby/Textor's best work, but I see your point.

No, over 50% (ignoring thresholds) of those voters will have voted for one of the parties making up that government, by definition. That to me is democracy, not electing a government that 60% of voters voted against,…

noting that National, Act, United and the Maori Party would constitute a four-headed ‘hydra’.

Except that it only needs two heads: National and ACT, or National and the Maori Party. It's not five parties needing to combine to form a majority, which is what was 'feared'.

Comparing the "two-party preferred" counts of the two main parties misses out the crucial fact that there are third parties.

In this election, the Greens and independents won seats (and ended up with the balance of power). You wouldn't know that by…

Why is that constitutionally meaningless?

Rob