Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: A (non-)submission on the new Arms Amendment legislation

Joe Wylie

Thu, 02 May 2019 11:32:20 +1200

We can all rub along together… right?

Why shoot, ya'll...
https://youtu.be/svlDAt83szg

BenWilson

Thu, 02 May 2019 10:34:51 +1200

Yep this is where NZ cleaves into two nations all right

I would not consider the tiny number of people determined to own military style assault rifles a nation.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 02 May 2019 08:31:29 +1200

Y’all know this place is an echo chamber, right?
We can all rub along together... right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAyOsNXcbgM

Sacha

Wed, 01 May 2019 23:08:27 +1200

unlike a rural gun club, naturally

Pete

Wed, 01 May 2019 20:58:07 +1200

Yep this is where NZ cleaves into two nations all right

Y'all know this place is an echo chamber, right?

BenWilson

Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:25:28 +1200

Prioritising costs will lead to bunny control being underfunded hence more ecological damage

Farmers don’t kill bunnies for ecological reasons, they do it for commercial reasons, and paying someone to do it properly is a sound commercial expenditure in a real business. I’m still not really seeing the reason why…

andin

Sun, 28 Apr 2019 22:09:49 +1200

pest control will be more expensive to run and the cost will be passed on to the customers/landowners
Have you been going round the country doing everyones costings again, when you knew the legislation was going to be passed and you wanted the facts to back up your claims? UMM…

Pete

Sun, 28 Apr 2019 20:29:31 +1200

Steven – what?

That guy wasn't a collector, he was a crim
What do you have against people who are firearms owners?
Why do we always get this shit?
I have less than zero interest in shooting anyone and yes I am aware that I have the tools but I…

Pete

Sun, 28 Apr 2019 20:23:24 +1200

So now with extra regulation professional pest control will be more expensive to run and the cost will be passed on to the customers/landowners

Prioritising costs will lead to bunny control being underfunded hence more ecological damage

I fully accept that the majority has spoken regarding semis – I am…

linger

Sun, 28 Apr 2019 12:08:42 +1200

...and most pests are such amateurs, after all...

Sacha

Sat, 27 Apr 2019 20:06:26 +1200

amateur pest control on the other hand ..

linger

Sat, 27 Apr 2019 17:20:04 +1200

a lot of bunnies down South soon
Wasn't use for professional pest control an explicit exception?

linger

Sat, 27 Apr 2019 17:11:49 +1200

I think the intended point was: As predicted, police stations are not secure enough (and/or police procedures not stringent enough) to cope with the increased pressure (in this case, from weird gun collectors gone rogue).
Though. again, such theft is actual criminal activity, prosecutable under already-existing laws.

Pete

Fri, 26 Apr 2019 22:52:24 +1200

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12225566

And the clusterfuck begins

simon g

Tue, 16 Apr 2019 19:40:27 +1200

First poll on new gun laws: 80% in favour (61% + 19% more who say "should go further").

You'd have trouble getting 80% of voters to agree that the moon landings really happened. So that's pretty conclusive.

andin

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:50:02 +1200

As a community we keep an eye on each other

Its how you define your community that can make or break a country.
I get your point about the police,they can too often turn into a quasi army enforcing clearly dangerous and stupid laws on the larger population at the…

Sacha

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 18:45:56 +1200

we are worried about being a target for gangs and burglaries – another reason not to trust ol plod with a database

That seems like a fair reservation.

Pete

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 18:37:37 +1200

There may be no sheep on our farms but there will certainly be a lot of bunnies down South soon

Pete

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 18:35:13 +1200

Yes, I know people who have more than 100 firearms each, at least 4 personally

Predominant group skews older white male and tend to have a lot of hair growing out of their ears and have never had a girlfriend – sounds like some sort of tramping club but seriously…

Sacha

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:03:05 +1200

the undue haste with which this process has been conducted

We can all keep perfectly calm

andin

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 15:13:43 +1200

Police so very regularly get things wrong on this register that it has become a standing joke so going on what they are doing now I wouldn’t trust the police

What happened in CHCH has shaken a lot of people out of their complacency including, I'm sure, the police. They…

Pete

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 13:49:37 +1200

As far back as I can remember there has always been an amnesty on firearms in this country, take any "gun" into your local copshop and they will happily destroy it for you
I've done it myself with a crappy little cheap 22 that I got at an auction for…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 13:25:49 +1200

Very democratic

You fail to understand what democracy means.

Your 250000, even IF they all opposed this law, which they clearly don't based on press releases by major hunting organisations, they would not outvote the rest of NZ.

That, for good or ill, is what democracy is about – but…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 15 Apr 2019 13:22:26 +1200

cross out for and insert against – you want to build an argument to change the law of this country.

You are arguing to possess lethal weapons – the onus is on you to present data. In the absence of data you should not be allowed to possess lethal weapons.…

linger

Sun, 14 Apr 2019 11:32:37 +1200

Why would you buy guns back off legal owners, but not off the owners of illegal weapons? It makes no sense
Well, if those are illegal e.g. by having been stolen, why would you want to provide a way to profit from that crime, or be less inclined to prosecute…

andin

Sun, 14 Apr 2019 10:23:06 +1200

The other illegal guns will still be illegal.

I thought they might offer an amnesty from prosecution at least, HDPA is scaremongering a tad. I admit. But getting info is a bit difficult. I might check out Parliament TV tho its like watching paint dry.And I dont know when this…

andin

Sun, 14 Apr 2019 09:34:34 +1200

Is this right?

"The Government is about to stuff this up in a major way. They've decided the gun buy-back won't include illegal guns.
That's ridiculous.
Why would you buy guns back off legal owners, but not off the owners of illegal weapons? It makes no sense."

From here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12221755…

Sacha

Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:46:21 +1200

you want to build an argument to change the law of this country

at least fifty of those recently. game over.

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:08:15 +1200

The Man with the Golden Gun thinks his reasons are genuine. I dont.
There's something slightly unnerving about this sentence:
"This gun is very special, it's priceless," Xu said from his home in Huapai where he lives with his wife, two children and various stuffed animals he has killed over…

andin

Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:51:16 +1200

genuine reasons

The Man with the Golden Gun thinks his reasons are genuine. I dont.

BenWilson

Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:10:17 +1200

The whole point of the article is to look at current law, the proposed reforms and make it clear and workable to keep guns out of the hands of the

“mentally unwell” and “lone gunman”.

I think the point is actually much stricter than that, it’s to keep them out…

Paul Loch

Wed, 10 Apr 2019 23:52:53 +1200

Guns don’t kill people, people kill people volia – you get it – see my post above.

If you want to build an argument for guns then you need to start with data. Not cherry-picked data or massaged statistics, real data. cross out for and insert against – you want…

andin

Wed, 10 Apr 2019 23:13:58 +1200

if there is such a thing.

If your asking I'd say no. Such creatures exist only for statistical purposes. Or to quiet some fear, a way of self identification. Secure in the knowledge they are just like everyone else in habits, interests, and way of living. Create a bubble in…

Paul Loch

Wed, 10 Apr 2019 22:23:57 +1200

you are desperately trying to make out you are the very epitome of normal I’d say an average New Zealander if there is such a thing.

That hoary old chestnut again? Yes, oddly enough the truth keeps on resurfacing.

You need to really study up on some actual current psychology…

andin

Wed, 10 Apr 2019 21:54:26 +1200

that 0.01% is the question.

Like this clown?https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111948420/trump-supporter-yelled-abuse-at-people-gathered-at-mosque-targeted-in-christchurch-terror-attack

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 10 Apr 2019 14:49:01 +1200

Bang Bang
The shooting community are by and large your average kiwi bloke (and a few lasses too) who enjoy the solitude of shooting in isolation or small groups.
...
It is how to keep the public safe from that 0.01% is the question.
How indeed? – I draw everyone's…

Paul Loch

Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:11:00 +1200

Umm Some interesting points I'd like to debate.

Bart Janssen

Tue, 09 Apr 2019 05:26:02 +1200

A page of text to say
Guns don’t kill people, people kill people

Show some originality. Seriously this NRA talking point has been debunked a thousand times. See also “mentally unwell” and “lone gunman”.

If you want to build an argument for guns then you need to start with data.…

andin

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 21:10:15 +1200

a job, a family, as well as community commitments.

All that sounds like is you are desperately trying to make out you are the very epitome of normal. Why do I not feel comforted by your protestations hmmm

if your force someone to give something up they want / need…

Paul Loch

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 20:35:38 +1200

Simon you make some very good points. I am aware of further legislation, perhaps we should have one encompassing reform instead of piecemeal hacks?

To put it in context since the introduction of the E Cat licence in response to the Aramoana massacre in 1990 there have been about 3000…

Paul Loch

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 19:40:08 +1200

Sir (I assume) I would like to, but due to the speed of this legislation happening I haven’t a chance to even collect my thoughts or gather information. I have spoken to the police twice and they are as confused as I am about the content of proposed legislation or…

Moz

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 15:06:46 +1200

My thought before was based on a Dilbert cartoon: if we limit firearms to ones that take imperial sized ammunition, and ammunition to metric sizes, we can solve the problem quite effectively. Or limit ammunition to less than 5mm, and firearms to greater than 5mm to get the same effect.

Moz

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 15:04:53 +1200

Could refinements in 3D printer technology lead to functional firearms eventually

The real problem with 3D printing is that it's grossly inefficient. The overwhelming majority of home 3D printing is used to make rubbish. Literal "straight from the printer to the bin" rubbish. If we legislate 3D printers I think…

simon g

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 13:07:05 +1200

Paul, further proposals are planned for later in the year, including a review of licensing requirements (or lack of). That will be a much lengthier legislative process, according to the PM's statements on the matter.

The underlying problem here is a familiar one in politics: bend, or break. For over…

BenWilson

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 12:55:12 +1200

While I get that shoddy legislation is typically a PITA in the long run, I'd like to hear from those alarmed about it what actual bad outcomes they can foresee? Contextualized against the obviously very, very bad outcome that our current laws enabled.

I can see only three possible bad…

Craig Young

Mon, 08 Apr 2019 11:03:53 +1200

There are some quite intelligent questions here, as one would expect.-

-I do take Graham's overall point about legislation under urgency being rushed and shoddy usually. However, the problem is the parliamentary messenger in this context. One would have to say that David Seymour facilitated several such National Party legislative…

andin

Sun, 07 Apr 2019 21:43:01 +1200

legislate something clear, concise, considered, workable and sustainable.

So you have made your submission then?

Paul Loch

Sun, 07 Apr 2019 20:33:10 +1200

The point that seems to be missed here is that this proposed legislation seems to be badly considered as it is being rushed through without due deliberation and consultation.

Don't misunderstand me; as a responsible firearm owner all my adult life I totally support any reform that would stop any…

linger

Sun, 07 Apr 2019 16:24:21 +1200

But what is included in the overall death or homicide figures? The Australian law wasn’t (and the NZ one isn’t) really intended to reduce the overall death rate significantly – there’s no way it can reduce the number of hunting accidents or suicides, for example. They’re specifically intended to reduce…

andin

Sun, 07 Apr 2019 10:29:33 +1200

Rushed law is bad law

You may feel as if gangs are metaphorically roaming the streets with tar and feathers.
And appealing to the pockets of taxpayers isnt a very convincing argument on your say so. Do you have figures for that?

Pete

Sun, 07 Apr 2019 09:53:38 +1200

A lot of AR15s will not be handed back in and registration will be an expensive boondoggle – I'd bet my two licenses on that
Australia has a lot of black market firearms

I fully understand that the will of the people is to ban semis but this law is…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 05 Apr 2019 16:15:22 +1300

Gun Ho!
When one of the biggest gun sellers in New Zealand is a convicted gun smuggler who committed federal crimes in the US and spent two years in jail for them?
Let’s not forget that the current President of the USA’s NRA is none other than the Iran/Contra drug…

andin

Fri, 05 Apr 2019 15:05:34 +1300

Homicide is death baby!
Your statistics look shonky too.

Richard Glover

Fri, 05 Apr 2019 14:50:07 +1300

The Australian buy-back might have worked well from the perspective of the number of guns handed in. But a lot of analysis shows that it did not have a significant effect on reducing firearm deaths. It makes it a fair question as to whether it is an appropriate step to…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 05 Apr 2019 09:56:27 +1300

Legally purchasing a weapon offers an opportunity to inspect who has a weapon

hahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh that’s so funny.

When one of the biggest gun sellers in New Zealand is a convicted gun smuggler who committed federal crimes in the US and spent two years in jail for them?

Our current…

BenWilson

Fri, 05 Apr 2019 09:41:12 +1300

Control of any item is not invalidated because there is still some hole not closed. That's just not how controlling things works, that you give up because it's not 100% perfect. Yes, people can still fabricate guns. But that will cut their numbers down to a tiny fraction of what…

andin

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 23:10:59 +1300

It could equally be from a group resourced to build their own arms factory. Or the factory might be built by an already cash rich group with a desire for firearms for protection and sale to the unscrupulous.

That'll give the espionage agencies something to salivate over if it were…

Robert Singers

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 21:08:28 +1300

YouTube may be full of people failing with with CNC equipment but there’s also a large number of people doing incredible stuff. As well as a number of videos of people handcrafting high quality firearms. The barrier of entry for a 3D printer is much lower and you can print…

simon g

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 19:30:29 +1300

It is not only about legal/illegal possession. "Legal" also means being able to practise freely, without hindrance, at gun clubs or in many situations for which firearms are legitimately used in public.

Currently, somebody who cannot do this in Australia can get better at doing it in NZ. Which is…

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 19:05:13 +1300

Thanks, Ben. All I have heard from crazy-for-guns apologists today suggests that they shut up and acknowledge that they are attempting to push shit uphill, againsta broad wave of popular support for strengthening gun laws.

Moz

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 17:38:37 +1300

Given that 3D printers and CNC metal working equipment can make fully automatic weapons

I think part of the reason the Australian came to Aotearoa is that he couldn't get the weapons he wanted into Australia. So if we set the bar that high we have likely stopped people at…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 17:00:53 +1300

I think that is meant to be the point – no one is, so why are they calling for it for guns, which only slaughtered a proportionally quite small number of people recently?

It's an equivocation with things that are really very different. There are entirely different balances of harms…

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 16:29:20 +1300

Your comment about ‘trucks and vans’ is just a distraction from the argument, and quite meaningless. It is possible to argue that private vehicle ownership, along with alcohol abuse, has long been the prinary cause of death, destruction and social cost, in New Zealand and elsewhere—but is anyone calling for…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 16:14:33 +1300

Doesn't seem short sighted to me, it's focusing on the the 99.999% of guns ever obtained. But yes, ammo is also being prohibited.

The experience of the last few centuries has shown us that prohibition rarely removes the prohibited goods from circulation it just creates a black market.

I call…

Robert Singers

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 15:22:00 +1300

Given that 3D printers and CNC metal working equipment can make fully automatic weapons based on plans that are legal in other jurisdictions focusing on the removing the legal right to purchase semi-automatic weapons seems awfully short sighted.

Legally purchasing a weapon offers an opportunity to inspect who has a…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 13:03:44 +1300

For anyone considering helping Graeme here, this has already happened, another party (Pete McCaffrey) has submitted the above so that Graeme can make an oral submission without feeling that he has lied in the metadata. The @NZParliament twitter account confirmed also that he would not be blocked from making an…

Public Address

Thu, 04 Apr 2019 13:03:44 +1300

Discussion from blog post.