Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: A matter of conscience

Tim McKenzie

Mon, 14 May 2012 13:39:40 +1200

Only Job’s 10 children were killed! Of course he can have some more later.
Interestingly, although Job ends up with twice as many sheep, camels, cattle, and donkeys as he started with, he ends up having only ten more children, not twenty. It's not spelt out, but the impression I…

Tim McKenzie

Mon, 14 May 2012 13:25:22 +1200

Adam and Eve only knew ‘eat all the fruits and seeds you want, just not the fruit of these two trees’, and they blew it.
Only one tree was out of bounds.

Abraham and Job knew only unquestioning faith and total obedience no matter how shite the situation or ridiculous…

Lilith __

Mon, 14 May 2012 13:15:55 +1200

the book doesn’t describe God doing horrible things to Job; it describes satan challenging God to do horrible things to Job. God declines to harm Job, but allows satan to harm him, within limits.

Secondly, only one wife is mentioned, and she isn’t killed.

I stand corrected about the wives.…

Tim McKenzie

Mon, 14 May 2012 13:10:07 +1200

Is it able but not willing?
Then it is malevolent.
Which is more malevolent: to allow evil that you can prevent, or to enslave every creature to prevent them from causing any evil?

Tim McKenzie

Mon, 14 May 2012 13:05:55 +1200

I certainly dont agree with that comment of your’s – it is in opposition of what I understand to be so-
If you truly don't believe in absolute morality, then why do you say things like
if they are in your vicinity, and you have spare food, your bounden duty…

Tim McKenzie

Mon, 14 May 2012 12:57:36 +1200

Not to mention the terrible things the OT God does to people.

Poor old Job, who was tortured in every way possible to test his faith. He endures the gratuitous killing of his wives and children but keeps his relationship with God, which is obviously the most important thing.
For…

Tim McKenzie

Mon, 14 May 2012 12:52:45 +1200

But Lewis misses a few things too. He doesn’t note the position which denies that morality is real at all, perhaps he hadn’t even heard of it.
I think he does address the position that morality isn't real; he addresses it by trying to demonstrate to the reader that their…

Lilith __

Mon, 14 May 2012 11:06:24 +1200

I fear I might finally convince myself to disappear up a mountain and go feral, ancient Daoist poet-style.

My only contact with Daoism was a book called The Tao of Pooh which I read as a teenager. So someone mentions Daoism, I think of teddy bears. :-s

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 23:51:16 +1200

"at the top.
there is no after:
at the bottom,
there is no where:
when & what
are your questions-
who is your answer?"

(My lengthy koan...)

Kumara Republic

Sat, 12 May 2012 23:45:38 +1200

No but if we really want to fix the problem, letting the heartless pricks off the hook while we go feed the poor is not a sustainable answer. Band-aids don't stop the bleeding.

It's worse than heartlessness, if various comments in the original article are anything to go by. One…

Chris Waugh

Sat, 12 May 2012 23:10:27 +1200

Now that my wife is home and I can write more than the occasional quick sentence...

It is strange and troublesome that people who would not normally defend moral relativism defend things in their holy book that most modern folk would deem to be completely immoral and utterly abhorrent by…

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 21:20:43 +1200

AE!

Chris Waugh

Sat, 12 May 2012 21:12:14 +1200

I do what makes a difference, what helps others – If what was just makes ME feel better, I’d be out there, hunting whalers-

My turn to add a +1000

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 19:54:03 +1200

I do what makes a difference, what helps others – If what was just makes ME feel better, I'd be out there, hunting whalers-

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 19:41:49 +1200

do whatever makes you feel better.

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 19:36:28 +1200

Report
I cannot get the site to copy Sacha’s earlier comment.
Silly comments like ”:bandaids dont stop bleeding” DO NOT FEED HUNGRY KIDS-
if they are in your vicinity, and you have spare food, your bounden duty as a rational human is quite simple – help feed the kids-…

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:52:52 +1200

Nope. Go read about the examples I gave you to understand it WASNT 'do unto others'- it was a whole new ballgame (in the South American sense!)

The phrase is, afterall, "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself."

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:43:26 +1200

Utu** can mean *expunging* someone/whanau/hapu who was perceived as being at wrong/fault/invasive

do unto others.

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:42:16 +1200

No but if we really want to fix the problem, letting the heartless pricks off the hook while we go feed the poor is not a sustainable answer. Band-aids don't stop the bleeding.

Lilith __

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:41:02 +1200

stopped him and provided an alternative sacrifice just before the knife was plunged in, the whole point being to test Abraham’s faith and total obedience.

But that's what I find so execrable. Being prepared to kill your child because of anyone's say-so is a vastly immoral position to be in.…

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:30:06 +1200

I vote for feed them while demanding government live up to its responsibilities.
+1000 Chris- on all points.

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:14:31 +1200

Utu and other reciprocity protocols are still about treating others alike. Even if that involves some unpleasantness.

That, Sacha, is *emphatically* NOT the case.
Utu** can mean *expunging* someone/whanau/hapu who was perceived as being at wrong/fault/invasive. It doesnt necessarily mean that the expunged ones were the ones at fault…very frequently,…

Chris Waugh

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:06:38 +1200

I vote for feed them while demanding government live up to its responsibilities.

Yeah, like that'll happen with this crowd in power.

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 18:04:41 +1200

So you let the kids starve in the mean meantime?

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 17:54:15 +1200

Charity is no substitute for proper govt policy and engaged involvement of citizens in keeping our leaders accountable for reflecting our priorities.

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 16:56:50 +1200

I viscerally hate the idea of hungry kids in our own islands...yes, I do donate to foodbanks – but wtf are the multimillionaires doing?

Chris Waugh

Sat, 12 May 2012 16:56:06 +1200

Indeed. Here I am in a properly Third World country wondering just what it is we let go so wrong back home.

Chris Waugh

Sat, 12 May 2012 16:54:14 +1200

Abraham is prepared to kill his son, and he is held up as an example of piety.

Yes, but remember that they were childless until at an impossibly old age they were promised a son whose descendants would be as countless as grains of sand, then, in a moment of…

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 16:43:20 +1200

sometimes it's the kids' own fault

stealing pig scraps too. no manners

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 16:38:57 +1200

The point is that (almost) everyone (including, it seems, you) speaks as if they believe that there is a universal moral standard with which the morals of individuals and societies could (in theory, at least) be compared.

I certainly dont agree with that comment of your's – it is in…

Lilith __

Sat, 12 May 2012 15:25:17 +1200

“Is it pious because the gods love it, or do the gods love it because it is pious?”, to which Euthyphro concedes that it is the latter. Most people would tend to agree with this – they find it inconceivable that God would love immoral things, that he might, for…

BenWilson

Sat, 12 May 2012 15:13:08 +1200

The point is not that every society has exactly the same set of morals; they don't. The point is that (almost) everyone (including, it seems, you) speaks as if they believe that there is a universal moral standard with which the morals of individuals and societies could (in theory, at…

Lilith __

Sat, 12 May 2012 14:57:46 +1200

Child poverty sure seems like a moral matter

Not really...sometimes it's the kids' own fault.
/sarcasm

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 14:38:37 +1200

Utu and other reciprocity protocols are still about treating others alike. Even if that involves some unpleasantness.

Tim McKenzie

Sat, 12 May 2012 13:58:44 +1200

slavery still exists in many parts of the world
Okay, then, do you think that there would be no moral improvement if slavery came to a complete end? Do you think that the morals of those individuals and societies that reject slavery are no better than the morals of those…

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 13:40:06 +1200

Um, no...history is a great teacher, especially when you derive from several cultures which were (and to a certain extent, still are ) revenge-driven.

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 13:37:01 +1200

a) slavery still exists in many parts of the world
b)we think we know what we are – free agents not subject to instinctive drives: our actions & behaviours indicate otherwise. I am implying that for a sane thinking species- one that is free from our inherent drives- such allowing/causing avoidable…

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 13:35:27 +1200

it would be my contention that there is no such thing as 'a universal moral standard'

'Do unto others' seems fairly widespread across cultures and times.

Sacha

Sat, 12 May 2012 13:34:47 +1200

I say moral issues are the common thread

Child poverty sure seems like a moral matter. Funny how 'conscience' votes are not about things like that.

Tim McKenzie

Sat, 12 May 2012 12:27:52 +1200

Exactly.
Time, and place, and species make all the difference.
I'm confused. Are you agreeing here that there was no moral improvement from pre-abolition acceptance of slavery to post-abolition rejection of it?
If humans were a truly sane species, there would be no avoidable suffering.
And are you implying here…

Islander

Sat, 12 May 2012 11:52:11 +1200

you claim that there is no universal moral standard against which to measure the morals of a particular person or society — if you claim that morals all depend on where and when you live —, then you cannot claim (for example) that there was a moral improvement between pre-abolition…

Tim McKenzie

Sat, 12 May 2012 11:06:01 +1200

it would be my contention that there is no such thing as ‘a universal moral standard’
If you claim that there is no universal moral standard against which to measure the morals of a particular person or society --- if you claim that morals all depend on where and when…

Tim McKenzie

Sat, 12 May 2012 11:00:55 +1200

I’m not sure what you are implying here
Graeme pretty much explained what I was suggesting (thanks Graeme). I'd add, though, that even if there isn't currently any significant political skew caused by the Māori electoral option, it creates the possibility that in future, a group might deliberately try to…

Lilith __

Sat, 12 May 2012 10:56:12 +1200

I’m not sure how that is inconsistent with my view that the the common feature of things that are subject to conscience votes was not human rights, but morality.

I guess the word "morality" makes me uncomfortable because of its overuse by religious fundamentalists, where it means whatever they happen…

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 12 May 2012 00:11:23 +1200

Yes…but isn’t your original point about how not all of the things that go to a conscience vote should go to a conscience vote? As society becomes more secular, we start thinking that issues like Sunday trading are fairly trivial, and that alcohol and gambling are matters for regulating rather…

Graeme Edgeler

Sat, 12 May 2012 00:07:31 +1200

I think your last postulation is waaay wrong.

Not mine. I've just describing one way that the theory that was posited could make sense.

BenWilson

Fri, 11 May 2012 23:44:03 +1200

I'm trying to draw a distinction between personal votes, and conscience votes. I think there is a place for conscience votes, being votes on which MPs are only accountable to themselves/God, and other votes, on which their parties, supporters, and voters generally can and should hold them to account.

I…

Lilith __

Fri, 11 May 2012 20:23:49 +1200

Wasn’t the legalisation of homosexuality put to a conscience vote?
Isn’t the common thread human rights (as someone else said above)?

Not really. I say moral issues are the common thread.

Alcohol, gambling, Sunday trading, and the like aren’t really human rights in the sense of slavery, and discrimination against…

Hebe

Fri, 11 May 2012 19:53:38 +1200

Hone Harawira is not popular with a large number of people. He may even be unpopular with a large number of people of Maori descent,Why assume that Maori because of their race are left or leftish?

Islander

Fri, 11 May 2012 19:39:43 +1200

Interesting , Graeme, and thanks for the explication.
I would suggest, from my & whanau experience, the exact opposite is true in the South- witness a Tirikatene getting Te Tai Toka back. And, from discussions internet & otherwise, I think your last postulation is waaay wrong.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 11 May 2012 19:27:49 +1200

I’m not sure what you are implying here: it is a fact that you choose whether or not to apply to go on the Maori roll.

I thought he was suggesting that there was some commonality in the type of person of Maori descent who is on the Maori roll…

Islander

Fri, 11 May 2012 16:45:14 +1200

he (almost) universal belief that there is a universal moral standard is evidence for the existence of a creator.

Somewhere around – upstairs in the fanatic & fringe section* of my library I think- is a copy of "Mere Christianity." I'll reread it before commenting on your quote – because it…

Islander

Fri, 11 May 2012 16:35:59 +1200

(although with Māori electorates having self-selected voters, it becomes slightly more plausible).
I'm not sure what you are implying here: it is a fact that you choose whether or not to apply to go on the Maori roll. In my electorate, Te Tai Toka, there is some fairly assiduous checking…

Tim McKenzie

Fri, 11 May 2012 16:08:00 +1200

each new religion just claimed long-existing morality as their own
On this topic, C. S. Lewis argues in the first few chapters of Mere Christianity that the (almost) universal belief that there is a universal moral standard is evidence for the existence of a creator.

Tim McKenzie

Fri, 11 May 2012 15:38:04 +1200

It’s how Christian doctrine came to disagree with slavery, because the mass working class already did.
[citation needed]. I tried to find some discussion of this on Wikipedia, but it gave the opposite impression. E.g.,
At the behest of Dominican priest Bartolomé de las Casas who was shocked at the…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 11 May 2012 14:19:35 +1200

Wasn’t the legalisation of homosexuality put to a conscience vote?
Isn’t the common thread human rights (as someone else said above)?

Not really. I say moral issues are the common thread.

Alcohol, gambling, Sunday trading, and the like aren't really human rights in the sense of slavery, and discrimination against…

Lilith __

Fri, 11 May 2012 13:36:09 +1200

From the perspective of an MP who opposes abortion, I’m pretty sure they view there opposition as ensuring that people can’t force their views on others

Wasn't the legalisation of homosexuality put to a conscience vote?
Isn't the common thread human rights (as someone else said above)?

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 11 May 2012 13:23:46 +1200

Graeme, aren’t personal votes and conscience votes technically the same thing? I recall last time the alcohol purchase age was debate the Speaker called for personal votes.

No. For most purposes, they're interchangeable, but no.

A personal vote is a vote cast by a member of Parliament by themselves, and…

Tim McKenzie

Fri, 11 May 2012 11:26:43 +1200

@Tim, etc. Under FPP people just get put in safe seats.
Consider a candidate that 90% of the New Zealand public want out of Parliament. It would be extremely difficult for any party to find an electorate safe enough to put that candidate in (although with Māori electorates having self-selected…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 11 May 2012 11:24:56 +1200

you may feel that every MP should ignore their personal judgement and cast a representative vote (what their constituents would want)
I have a problem with this concept. There is a reason that people vote for a particular candidate, because they like what they stand for. So, their personal judgement…

Tim McKenzie

Fri, 11 May 2012 11:12:55 +1200

He’s the MP for Helensville, with 74% of the votes. I can’t think of any electoral system that would change this.
John Howard was preferred to his closest opponent by at least 60% of his electorate in 1975, 1977, 1987, 1990, and 1996, but he lost the seat in 2007,…

Tim McKenzie

Fri, 11 May 2012 11:04:08 +1200

Tim, under MMP (and most electoral systems aside from STV), we don’t get to vote against anyone, only for someone.
Yes, under most systems (including STV) a "No confidence" option would add at least a little to the legitimacy of winners.

Ross Bell

Fri, 11 May 2012 08:32:25 +1200

Graeme, aren't personal votes and conscience votes technically the same thing? I recall last time the alcohol purchase age was debate the Speaker called for personal votes.

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 11 May 2012 01:05:07 +1200

This may be of interest – the Law Commission on alcohol legislation and the conscience vote

I did think about including it, but decided my point was made well enough and long enough already :-)

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 11 May 2012 01:03:30 +1200

Also, yeh, this idea that morality comes from religion is a lie. It never did, each new religion just claimed long-existing morality as their own, and changed along with society if they wished to survive.

That wasn't what I was claiming. Even if morality precedes religion, that doesn't mean that…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 11 May 2012 01:00:42 +1200

An MP has every right to make a personal decision not to drink, not to have an abortion and not to shop on a Sunday. What we are talking about isn’t them exercising that right, it’s them forcing others (using the state’s monopoly of violence) to adhere to their personal…

tussock

Thu, 10 May 2012 23:11:55 +1200

@Tim, etc. Under FPP people just get put in safe seats. Look at who the good people of Epsom voted for last election, there's always some group will hold their nose and kiss the toads.

Also, yeh, this idea that morality comes from religion is a lie. It never did,…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 10 May 2012 20:25:40 +1200

how difficult it would be for determined voters to get John Key out of Parliament under MMP

He's the MP for Helensville, with 74% of the votes. I can't think of any electoral system that would change this.

Contrast this with local councillors, who are mostly independent. Michael Lhaws is…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 10 May 2012 20:16:34 +1200

Witb the exception of gambling, all of the 'conscience' issues are also those of fundamental human rights. People have the right to life, the right to decide what to do with their bodies, the right to observe their own religion or none.

An MP has every right to make a…

Matthew Smith

Thu, 10 May 2012 18:51:47 +1200

The point is that a huge majority of New Zealanders (say 90%) might oppose Steven Joyce’s (or, say, Winston Peters’s) return to Parliament, but if the party is determined, and a small proportion of voters is willing, they will be returned to Parliament anyway, and will stand a good chance…

Ewan Morris

Thu, 10 May 2012 18:42:30 +1200

This may be of interest – the Law Commission on alcohol legislation and the conscience vote

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 May 2012 18:38:14 +1200

It must have been someone else, then. I think it was on Public Address, but I can't find it

Craig is a fan, I think.

Tim McKenzie

Thu, 10 May 2012 17:16:36 +1200

I don't think I've ever quoted Burke, although I don't think I'm really speaking against him here.
It must have been someone else, then. I think it was on Public Address, but I can't find it.

Anyway, even tax policy is an ethical issue, and should therefore be a conscience…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 10 May 2012 17:13:15 +1200

I…

Lilith __

Thu, 10 May 2012 16:43:31 +1200

the historical basis of most of our conscience issues

Sure, but does that really apply much today? How many of our MPs are committed Christians? I’d guess not that many. But many of them still hold strong and inflexible views on certain ethical issues, whether or not they believe in…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 May 2012 16:28:57 +1200

Graeme, I understand your point, but I wonder if it's necessary to drag gods into this debate.

I used God because of the historical basis of most of our conscience issues. The temperance movement was strongly rooted in Christianity. The reason that issues around alcohol have been conscience issues is…

Islander

Thu, 10 May 2012 16:08:59 +1200

Graeme, I understand your point, but I wonder if it’s necessary to drag gods into this debate. Plenty of atheists have very strong principles on certain issues.

This atheist says +1.
I have both a strong sense of morality, and equity, and my conscience will not allow me to sanction…

Lilith __

Thu, 10 May 2012 16:01:45 +1200

Graeme, I understand your point, but I wonder if it's necessary to drag gods into this debate. Plenty of atheists have very strong principles on certain issues.

Marilyn Waring famously told the National Party that there were 2 things she was prepared to cross the floor over: one was rape,…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 May 2012 15:45:08 +1200

And because MMP gives parties more influence over who gets into Parliament, it gives them more influence over how their MPs vote in Parliament.

In theory, yes.

But New Zealand has only rarely had members of Parliament cross the floor, under MMP or FPP. It happens all the time in…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 May 2012 15:41:17 +1200

I vaguely remember you (or it may have been someone else) quoting part of Edmund Burke's famous speech to the electors of Bristol

I don't think I've ever quoted Burke, although I don't think I'm really speaking against him here.

Tim McKenzie

Thu, 10 May 2012 15:06:26 +1200

Oh, yes; I forgot to mention that MMP also gives more power to parties by allowing them to stand candidates for all 120 seats; independent candidates have only 70 seats to choose from.

Tim McKenzie

Thu, 10 May 2012 15:03:06 +1200

Australian voters? I think you mean Bennelong voters
Are Bennelong voters not Australian voters?

The point is that a huge majority of New Zealanders (say 90%) might oppose Steven Joyce's (or, say, Winston Peters's) return to Parliament, but if the party is determined, and a small proportion of voters is…

Tim McKenzie

Thu, 10 May 2012 14:50:46 +1200

I vaguely remember you (or it may have been someone else) quoting part of Edmund Burke's famous speech to the electors of Bristol
Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 May 2012 14:30:18 +1200

As far as I’m concerned, every vote is a conscience vote, my own included, and parties do not enhance democracy at all, for that reason.

I'm trying to draw a distinction between personal votes, and conscience votes. I think there is a place for conscience votes, being votes on which…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 May 2012 14:27:49 +1200

Now consider that Australian voters got John Howard out of Parliament (under PV, I believe) immediately after he’d been Prime Minister for eleven years.

Australian voters? I think you mean Bennelong voters, and boundary and demographic changes.

Angus Robertson

Thu, 10 May 2012 14:01:40 +1200

The criminalisation of victimless crimes seems pretty immoral to me.

Tim McKenzie

Thu, 10 May 2012 13:49:06 +1200

One of the best things about MMP (and other proportional representation systems) is that it takes account of the horrid influence of parties in the process, enabling more than a duality of them to exist.
But it gives the parties much more power to choose who will be MPs, regardless…

BenWilson

Thu, 10 May 2012 12:55:56 +1200

I'm not sure how much I can agree with you, Graeme, because you seem to be taking both sides on a couple of points. As far as I'm concerned, every vote is a conscience vote, my own included, and parties do not enhance democracy at all, for that reason. They…

Tim McKenzie

Thu, 10 May 2012 12:42:58 +1200

That’s how it seems to work. A lot of conscience issues are really only issues of conscience for those who hold a firm opinion in one particular direction.
It's worse than that in the case of the Green Party. Holly told us that all Green candidates are required to sign…

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 10 May 2012 12:06:04 +1200

Holly Walker said she would vote according to her party's position on the issue. She didn't know what her party's position would be, because it was still in development, and wouldn't be finalized until after the election.

That's how it seems to work. A lot of conscience issues are really…

Tim McKenzie

Thu, 10 May 2012 11:40:33 +1200

During the most recent election campaign, I went to a meet-the-candidates event for Hutt South. One of the questions was about whether the candidates would support a bill about euthanasia at its first reading. Holly Walker said she would vote according to her party's position on the issue. She didn't…

Public Address

Thu, 10 May 2012 11:40:33 +1200

Discussion from blog post.