Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: $420,259.33

Rob Stowell

Tue, 14 May 2013 12:08:27 +1200

at least they would have been required to answer for themselves in an open court. It would certainly have been more in the public interest than some of the *cough* injudicious and sometimes downright defamatory conspiracy theories going round from all sides.
Agreed! Non-partisan courts are an invaluable blessing we…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 13 May 2013 21:54:09 +1200

And that, presumably, is somewhat at the heart of the non-prosecution: it’s been lax- and now, whoever gets charged first will scream blue murder about prosecutorial ‘discretion’ and partisanship.

Reality check: That would have happened anyway if National and Labour had found themselves in court after an already close and…

Russell Brown

Mon, 13 May 2013 19:58:54 +1200

He’s allowed to write about whatever interests him, and today, this is that subject. Keeping politicians honest is a perfectly noble journalistic cause, and if the target is Labour, it is worth noting that they’re hardly some poor starving beneficiary family who don’t deserve attention. From time to time, they…

Felix Marwick

Mon, 13 May 2013 17:58:35 +1200

From what I was told Labour sought clarification in mid-April, 2 weeks before its donations return was due. That was when they were told by the Electoral Commission that it counted as a donation and had to be declared as such.

Why they didn't seek that advice sooner is unclear.…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 13 May 2013 16:50:11 +1200

Prosecutions and decent fine or two, and you have to suspect everyone would fall into line fairly quickly

Or they'd greet potential donors with a: __ "Donation? Well thanks old boy, but frankly we tend to avoid those nowadays, too much paperwork. Here, I'll leave you the details for the…

izogi

Mon, 13 May 2013 16:47:54 +1200

Well, I think it's fair to point out that "yadiyadiyada" is not the attitude successive National and Labour governments have taken to beneficiaries, superannuatants and student loan holders.

No argument there, Craig, and I'm disappointed that the Labour Party isn't being taken to the cleaners over this. I just happened…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 16:44:43 +1200

So the actual transactions took place immediately before and just after handover to a new general secretary. Later, under the new secretary, a correct return was filed (who thought to do that? why did they decide it was best?).

The first (and most important) transaction occurred in April, with the…

BenWilson

Mon, 13 May 2013 16:36:48 +1200

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here, Tom.

Nah, he's being partisan himself, in an attempt to redress a perceived imbalance. But the perception is pretty skewed, it's not like Graeme is some partisan hack who is always going on about the naughty wicked Labour party.…

Sockington McPuppet

Mon, 13 May 2013 16:00:58 +1200

Rob Stowell

Mon, 13 May 2013 15:29:49 +1200

That was possibly the stupidest non-prosecution of the whole lot.

If National had been charged, I have every confidence that they’d have pleaded guilty.
And that, presumably, is somewhat at the heart of the non-prosecution: it's been lax- and now, whoever gets charged first will scream blue murder about prosecutorial…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 13 May 2013 15:14:53 +1200

What lies bequeath...
I too wonder how the confusion could have got that far along.
If you have a list of incoming money, each entry would have to be reconciled against some heading or other, be it Contribution or Donation – it's clearly not earnings of any sort, what else…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 15:10:24 +1200

equally unconcerned if National has a little “Oh, but it’s so complicated” brain-fade about properly disclosing over $400K in donations, and (yet again) nobody gets prosecuted.

GST, 2005

That was possibly the stupidest non-prosecution of the whole lot.

If National had been charged – and they should have been –…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 15:08:19 +1200

Craig, what I have had enough of is exquisitely detailed attempts to beat up a story about the Labour party finances masquerading as the PAS “legal beagle”. Graeme Edgeler has managed to find the time to craft almost 1350 words on this non-issue

You may prefer one of these three…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 13 May 2013 14:43:28 +1200

The "donor" in question had finished his innings. Dead people aren't usually scared of a lot, really.

And it doesn't strike me as particularly sinister that someone who, I understand, has been a Labour Party supporter and donor for decades might leave 'em some dosh in his will. Which makes…

Brent Jackson

Mon, 13 May 2013 14:35:04 +1200

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here, Tom. Graeme blogs about Electoral Reform and other news that has legal quirks. This story did and so he wrote about it. The fact that there are other such stories is irrelevant. He chose to write about this one.…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 13 May 2013 14:33:47 +1200

The "donor" in question had finished his innings. Dead people aren't usually scared of a lot, really.

Konrad Kurta

Mon, 13 May 2013 14:01:37 +1200

I kinda agree with Craig on this one. If someone gives you $400,000, you'd think you would make damn sure that every cent of it was squeaky clean, lest it politically blow up in your face. Personally, I'd love to know exactly who was donating. It could scare away potential…

Sacha

Mon, 13 May 2013 13:35:24 +1200

equally unconcerned if National has a little "Oh, but it's so complicated" brain-fade about properly disclosing over $400K in donations, and (yet again) nobody gets prosecuted.

GST, 2005

Tom Semmens

Mon, 13 May 2013 13:25:41 +1200

Craig, what I have had enough of is exquisitely detailed attempts to beat up a story about the Labour party finances masquerading as the PAS “legal beagle”. Graeme Edgler has managed to find the time to craft almost 1350 words on this non-issue, yet he is completely silent about the…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 13 May 2013 13:06:46 +1200

Even better, every party donation should be accompanied by a photo of both sides of the credit card with the donor's name, address and PIN, available for public browsing.

Paul Campbell

Mon, 13 May 2013 12:26:56 +1200

I think Graeme is right – it should have been disclosed – from a purely moral point of view – the legal one is just an angels on heads of pins thing.

Personally I think every single dollar a party or candidate for public office takes in should be published…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 13 May 2013 11:45:46 +1200

I’m sorry Craig, but I’m just not buying these sorts of pious little Goody Two-Shoes routines that always just coincidentially happen to focus on Labour’s finances anymore.

Fine, Tom. My actual opinion on this hasn’t changed in seven years, but whatever gets you through the night, cherub.
that
And for…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 13 May 2013 11:23:33 +1200

tens of thousands of incorporated societies and registered charities in this country whose volunteers have to put in the time and effort to obey the law

I'd be interested what the average number of technical breaches of the law is for such organisations. The only one I've been involved with…

Tom Semmens

Mon, 13 May 2013 11:13:30 +1200

Labour said they were not sure, then they declared it, the Electoral Commission accepts that. The end. The only one getting his knickers in a twist over it is you. I am not interested in your "questions", because I'm not buying what I think is a partisan attempt to hawk…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 11:03:20 +1200

I’m just not buying these sorts of pious little Goody Two-Shoes routines that always just coincidentally happen to focus on Labour’s finances anymore.

What aspects of National's finances do you believe have broken the law over the last few years?

Former Labour Party Secretary Mike Smith [[http://thestandard.org.nz/national-breaks-law-on-donations/|thought he found a…

Tom Semmens

Mon, 13 May 2013 10:52:23 +1200

I'm sorry Craig, but I'm just not buying these sorts of pious little Goody Two-Shoes routines that always just coincidentially happen to focus on Labour's finances anymore.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 10:34:37 +1200

One can’t fault Labour for at least playing an open card hand, unlike certain other notable organisations have filtered their donors via blind trusts. Or worse still, outrightly astroturfed.

Yes you can.

First, Labour took over a year to play that open hand.

Second, while under the old law, National…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 13 May 2013 10:29:48 +1200

Political parties in NZ tend to run on the smell of an oily rag and don’t have money to retain legal departments for interpretations.

To use a technical term, Tom, boo-fucking-hoo. There's tens of thousands of incorporated societies and registered charities in this country whose volunteers have to put in…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 13 May 2013 10:17:07 +1200

One can't fault Labour for at least playing an open card hand, unlike certain other notable organisations have filtered their donors via blind trusts. Or worse still, outrightly astroturfed.

Tom Semmens

Mon, 13 May 2013 10:10:01 +1200

First, Labour’s Party Secretary is...

Blah blah blah.

Personally, I think you are blowing sanctimonious smoke out of your arse for party political reasons.

Tom Semmens

Mon, 13 May 2013 10:07:57 +1200

OK, with the (honourable) exception of I/S, who retains a charming ability to appear to be as outraged at a local city councillor double parking and wiggling off the ticket as he is over the use of chemical weapons in Syria.

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 10:04:47 +1200

Political parties in NZ tend to run on the smell of an oily rag and don’t have money to retain legal departments for interpretations.

First, Labour's Party Secretary is certainly a full-time paid position.
Second, I am entirely confident there is someone like me somewhere in the Labour Party whom…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:57:28 +1200

I don’t think this is a valid excuse, nor does it show anything but unacceptable performance for the important role they were in and maybe that kind of thing should warrant a penalty for parties or individuals on its own, but……. malice… incompetence… yadiyadiyada.

Well, I think it's fair to…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:56:58 +1200

This number of people being exclusively made up of online National Party activists.

I'll make sure Idiot/Savant of No Right Turn is aware of his new designation:

__Update: According to NewstalkZB's Felix Marwick, the Electoral Commission has accepted Labour's excuse of "confusion as to whether a bequest counts as a…

Tom Semmens

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:55:26 +1200

Political parties in NZ tend to run on the smell of an oily rag and don't have money to retain legal departments for interpretations.

The Electoral Commission has accepted there was no intention to deceive, and as a bequest it hardly falls into the category of corporate donations that National…

Graeme Edgeler

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:52:57 +1200

Even putting the legal issues aside, what the fuck was Barnett thinking in not (as Graeme pointed out) showing some basic political judgement in disclosing on the side of caution?

I think you may (mostly) mean Flatt, not Barnett.

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:31:46 +1200

I don’t think I’d use Whalespunk as my lawyer, thank you..

Well, he couldn’t do a worse job that whoever is advising Tim Barnett nowadays. Even putting the legal issues aside, what the fuck was Barnett thinking in not (as Graeme pointed out) showing some basic political judgement in disclosing…

izogi

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:31:06 +1200

I simply cannot accept "confusion" as an explanation. Being confused about this means you received the money and thought about it whether it had to be disclosed, and just couldn't make up your mind for certain either way.

Does it? Maybe under a strict definition within a domain, but casually…

Tom Semmens

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:24:12 +1200

which has disappointed a number of people.

This number of people being exclusively made up of online National Party activists.

I am so concerned that now I am wondering if the boss is going to bring in donuts for morning tea again today or not.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:09:19 +1200

The received wisdom is very much that it is

I don't think I'd use Whalespunk as my lawyer, thank you..

Public Address

Mon, 13 May 2013 09:09:18 +1200

Discussion from blog post.