The ODT has been posting some more interesting stuff of late. I find Simon Cunliffe's opinion pieces a good…

Does the acid-throwing on Ablett-Kerr's car count as perverting the course of justice, or is that only during a trial?

It happened during the trial, and my understanding is that it doesn't count at all. She's not a witness, she's not on the jury, and she's not the judge. Therefore…

On of the things I really liked about this piece was the way she…

And this piece shows a completely different side of the issue – I'm pretty amazed the ODT published it, not really their sort of thing ....wow!

Indeed. well written and shit ....straight to the guts of it really.

"When everyone hears my side of the story I'll be vindicated, don't…

I also stopped reading the papers and watching the news; I was incensed that it was always referred to as 'Weatherston's murder trial' – when it was Sophie who was murdered, the media should have used her name, whenever they could, not his – it felt like complete misogyny!

Michelle:…

Provocation will be scrapped by a government bill. So Weatherston's obnoxious performance has turned out to be good for something after all.

And like Idiot/Savant, I'm pretty pleased that its going to be done through a government bill. Don't give a fig who "gets the credit" — or that so…

But complainants and other parties get copies of reports, yes.

In an…

Not one that we seem to hear anything about, including who (AOS).

Try here. See, for example, their explanation of why they won't investigate the death of Jan Molenaar (he shot himself).

Taser is electrocuting.don't see that as between.

I don't think you know what "electrocuting" means.

still think we can do better.

Maybe, in general, but based on what we know at this point about this particular incident, the police seemed to have acted reasonably.

How about get the neighbours watching away ,stand back from the tantrum and wait for back up to reassess?Check out if there is any history, find if mental health issues and if professional in that area are available,have a cop (maybe a detective detecting)checking if next of kin can be…

Taser is electrocuting. don't see that as between.

Taser is designed to be non-lethal, and meets that design in most situations. Yes, some tasered people have died, but it is infrequent and rare, as opposed to shooting in the chest, which is frequently if not mostly fatal.

Do I want…

and our solution is fast becoming shoot to kill (in the chest is kill)

No, in the chest is disable. Police policy is, and always has been, shoot to stop. Shoot to wound is Hollywood bullshit, and has no place on real streets, with real cops using real guns to…

What did you want the police to do, get into a knife fight?

Maybe Sofie's thinking a big group hug? She alluded to there being a large number of officers present.

Personally, I have no problems with the police using firearms in this situation. Even with the availability of Tasers…

With Mokaraka, he presented a threat to life. The use of lethal force is entirely justified. An ordinary person, faced with someone waving knives and a meat cleaver, would very likely consider their life to be in imminent danger.

And, if said ordinary person shot the person

They would very…

Maybe we need to be sending our police to Wizard School.

There's no suggestion (so far) that the police were trigger happy here.

Well it just seems violence is every…

Can anyone advise what the police did before guns . . .

Once upon a time they had plastic guns.

Can anyone advise what the police did before guns for all the thugs with the knives and meat cleavers?

Good question. I'm pretty sure that back in the (very) old days you just hired another thug to even things out.

Violence is a societal problem that all we NZers have.

You spend a lot of time running around the neighbourhood getting your Jack Sparrow on? :)

One knife between his teeth. Aaarrh!

Silly me! Of course.

I am just confused about how one might attack with two knives and a meat cleaver if one did not have, say, an extra robotic limb.

Probably acted in a pirate movie. One knife between his teeth. Aaarrh!

...how many hands did the guy have?

Was the meat cleaver plus multiple knives thing something the police specifically said, or the media? Either way, I don't see the relevance to what Matthew was commenting on.

And, if said ordinary person shot the person.....?

Silly police. Why didn't they set…

With Mokaraka, he presented a threat to life. The use of lethal force is entirely justified. An ordinary person, faced with someone waving knives and a meat cleaver, would very likely consider their life to be in imminent danger.

And, if said ordinary person shot the person.....oh that's right.....I am with…

Most people seem to think violence can be a legitimate resort when defending oneself or others from violence or threatened violence.

Precisely. Defence of self or another from an immediate threat to life is not an unreasonable circumstance in which to use violence, assuming the violence used is commensurate to…

Thanks for the context — which wasn't entirely clear from the coverage I saw — and I stand corrected. Even though the PA sends me bugfuck, if they're lifting their game from O'Connor's usual (sub-)standard credit is due and given.

Off slightly but relevant, the police seem to think so.

Most people seem to think violence can be a legitimate resort when defending oneself or others from violence or threatened violence. All I know about the Mokaraka shooting is what's been in the media so far, but based on that…

Strange that they were waiting for a Taser and a qualified operator when it went down. I was under the misguided impression that...I don't know... just point and shoot, point and shoot.

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but the NZ Police aren't known for being trigger-happy.…

Strange that they were waiting for a Taser and a qualified operator when it went down.

Do Police Association spokesthings get a bonus for turning every damn shooting incident, car crash or broken nail involving a member into "If we had tasers, and could use them at will, things like…

. . . the kind of person who has elevated psychology into a secular religion . . .

__"The freud will see you now," said the nurse, and Mrs. Garvy tottered into his office. His traditional glasses and whiskers were reassuring. She choked out the ritual. "Freud, forgive me, for…

Off slightly but relevant, the police seem to think so.I'd hate for my child to have a tantrum in the wrong place.Anything can now be considered a weapon.One man and a meat cleaver, bunch of cops, just aim and shoot. Sorted.But, but, he had a knife.

Sofie, pray, tell, do…

Every time I hear Nigel Latta talk, he talks about his own substantial achievements. That they are, in comparison to maybe his clients . . .

While not all shrinks are given to big-noting themselves à la Latta, there are those who find little problem dealing with their clients' craziness…

Every time I hear Nigel Latta talk, he talks about his own substantial achievements. That they are, in comparison to maybe his clients, but thats not what I'm interested in hearing from a celebrity physiologist.

I certainly hope his day job doesn't include giving clinical assessments of people he's never…

But, but, he had a knife.

They reported the man's weaponry on NatRad as a meat cleaver and two knives, and I kept thinking 'how many hands does this dude have?'

he said that the very existence of the defence of provocation says that society considers violence, in certain circumstances, to be a reasonable response. After all, it is how a "reasonable" person would respond, is it not?

Off slightly but relevant, the police seem to think so.I'd hate for my child…

could Nigel Latta — who has precisely NO clinical relationship with Weatherston — please sit down, and take a long pull on his fuckupachino.

A couple of quotes from the Sainsbury interview that stuck...

“…he was Mr Average, he was Mr Bland, He was thirty something years old and a…

What I mean is, if your son turning out to be a murderer is the very last possible thing you could ever…

Not trying to make light of the situation or anything, but "pink-eyed, posturing pervert" is damn fine alliteration – and apposite.

Seems to me Sacha, you sent us over to the sports thread just so you'd have the space to perfect your John Keating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpeLSMKNFO4

On a personal note, I am a little disturbed at the beatification of Sophie Elliott. Can't we see some shades of grey – the world is not all black (Weatherston) and white (Saint Sophie Elliott).

Oh, I think there's a pretty clear line between the person who stabbed and mutilated…

If after reading this an exasperated Herald reader tools up with weaponry, grenades, RPGs and knives, walks into APN reception and then goes to work, is it manslaughter?

Apparently someone already got to the headline checkers ("Weatherstone"?!)

But the "PC nonsense" theme doesn't really work for this story. O'Sullivan writes that Weatherston is clearly mad and shouldn't be in prison. This despite no evidence ever being presented during trial that Weatherston didn't know what he was doing, or that what he was doing was…

Can the media just move on and find someone else to vilify? Didn't the ABs just lose a test?

Quite. Let this thread die a graceful death and over to the sports threads with you all.

being a moron with access to a printing press isn't a crime.

Unfortunately, no.…

But if you want to talk about truly dangerous, could Nigel Latta — who has precisely NO clinical relationship with Weatherston — please sit down, and take a long pull on his fuckupachino.

I would have pictured him to be more of a Latte drinker.

Probably not — but I'd also like to know who the fuck decided Weatherston was "the most hated man in New Zealand" and a "whole nation" is weeping and rending its garments over Sophie Elliot.

Amen. The "Weatherston Effect" has seen normally sane journalists and columnists writhing in indignation. We…

As a parent I can understand trying to grasp at anything to explain why your child has done something monstrous. That doesn't make it newsworthy.

No more than having Sophie Elliot's parents trotted out like performing grief monkey. But if you want to talk about truly dangerous, could Nigel Latta…

Weatherston was 'provoked' – parents

is not a headline that should ever have been published. removing the provocation plea will not assist in dealing with this malignancy.

Probably not — but I'd also like to know who the fuck decided Weatherston was "the most hated man in New Zealand" and…

In which case the Weatherston jury only had to put themselves in Weatherston's position. Decision reached in 216 seconds I'd have thought.

Not that simple. There are numerous Court of Appeal cases on just what s169(2) means. I think it's fair to say the courts have struggled with it.

Weatherston…

S169 Provocation
(1) Culpable homicide that would otherwise be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who caused the death did so under provocation.
(2) Anything done or said may be provocation if—
(a) In the circumstances of the case **it was sufficient to deprive a person…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2674929/Weatherston-was-provoked-parents

In which case the Weatherston jury only had to put themselves in Weatherston's position. Decision reached in 216 seconds I'd have thought.…

So although I will be glad to see the defense go, I will be extremely disappointed that it will only be because someone finally tried to use it to get away with murdering someone straight.

Would you rather that it stuck around until some other gay person is "manslaughtered"? With…

By making provocation a matter for examination during sentencing, the farce would have been conducted away from the eyes of the media. Sentencing hearings aren't broadcast for all and sundry, and without the "bonus" of playing for the jury Weatherston's behaviour would likely have been much subdued.

Unfortunately, the cameras…

By making provocation a matter for examination during sentencing, the farce would have been conducted away from the eyes of the media. Sentencing hearings aren't broadcast for all and sundry, and without the "bonus" of playing for the jury Weatherston's behaviour would likely have been much subdued.

Unfortunately, the cameras…

Perhaps we can have an in-depth feature on people who suffer from dissociative disorders that allow them to compartmentalise and rationalise distasteful behaviour.

I'm sure we'll see one in this weekend's Herald on Sunday.

Didn't have to wait until
Sunday

Y'know, I think this provocation defense should stay. After all, getting rid of it isn't going to change what happened in the Weatherston trial.

No, but it will ensure it can never happen again. The judge would've ruled it entirely inadmissible that Sophie was, according to Weatherston, a manipulative slut…

Y'know, I think this provocation defense should stay.

I'm thinking that too. Surely there are some cases where it's relevant? The fact that it's been widely abused doesn't automatically mean it should be abolished. I lean more to thinking that some judges have inappropriately allowed it.

My mistake, Craig. I thought you were judging the Elliotts harshly rather than the media.

Well, to be fair what little I've seen/read wasn't as crass as I'd been expecting. (Damnation with faint praise, sure, but that's all I've got.) But wouldn't it have been nice if the press pack…

No fair. I don't think anyone else should judge how other people handle grief.

Um, I think its entirely fair to gag a little at The Herald running headlines like 'Weatherston ignored a nation's horror' (while being quite happy to print every excruciating titbit of death porn) while the Elliot…

Just quietly, exactly what I expected.

Aye. That's hardly even news. He'll have been through the communal living unit so fast that his feet will have hardly touched the ground on the way to segregation.

The UK has a mandatory life sentence…

Use of lethal force to meet lethal force is legal in this country, the protestations of Insensible Sentencing notwithstanding.

I believe they're still focused on lethal force to meet nonlethal tagging.

However, by way of hypothetical example, without provocation, if Sophie’s mum went into the room during the attack and knocked Weatherston out with a baseball bat, that would be self-defence. However, once Weatherston was clearly incapacitated (and thus no longer a threat), if she hit him again on the head…

Remember also that a judge can impose life for manslaughter. So the label…

Does anyone know what the legal aid bill for this was? What is Kerr's hourly rate? And her teams? Would the defence team have been influenced by the amount they could charge to legal aid for running it in the way they did?

She and King represented some friends of…

It seems a bit craven to me that they waited until after the verdict.

Yes, possibly, but they may also have been trying to avoid raising Justice Potter's ire by publishing material that could, conceivably, have had the appearance of trying to influence the jury. Reporting Weatherston's bile-tainted utterances from…

Meanwhile, could the papers (and the rest of the media) stop posturing about the appealing trauma Sophie Elliot's family went through

I'm hoping you meant 'appalling' there, Craig.

while you've got her parents performing like dancing grief monkeys, and you still can't stop yourself publishing every salacious titbit you can…

'nah, found one.'

I'd even put on a clean shirt...

Alan apparently has at least one sock, so it's practically a match made in heaven.

oh, you charmer.

And that's before the flowers, dinner and dancing. I'd even put on a clean shirt...

hang on Craig, I had a witty rejoinder stuffed in my sock somewhere...if I can just reach it...ah, there it is.

fuck you.

Are you sure you could afford me on expenses? And if I call you 'Viggo', don't get too freaked out. :)

But seriously, Alan, I'd be really…

That would require an element of self-knowledge that I doubt you can have as an employee of the Herald without dying of shame. :) ''

hang on Craig, I had a witty rejoinder stuffed in my sock somewhere...if…

and the recent case involving "gay provocation" I'm tending to agree with those wanting the provocation partial defense removed (other than as a mitigating factor at sentencing).

I'm not terribly comfortable with provocation full stop, even as a "mitigating factor" at sentencing, but accept that there are far from simple…

What's the maximum sentence that can be imposed for murder? What's the maximum non-parole time? I did a quick google but couldn't find the answer.

As others have said, the statutory maximum for murder is life, and the presumption is that life will be the sentence unless there are extenuating…

Not it doesn't = No it doesn't

edit button now!

Murder carries a mandatory life sentence

Not it doesn't.

Section 102 of the Sentencing Act 2002:

An offender who is convicted of murder must be sentenced to imprisonment for life unless, given the circumstances of the offence and the offender, a sentence of imprisonment for life would be manifestly unjust.

…

So, it's like we are sending them for dismantling. Can we sell the spare parts?

Well, there are numerous allegations that this happens in some parts of the Chinese penal system.

Tom, use the 'Off' button (on your tv...)

Why should I have to?

Because if you don't, sooner or later you'll be confronted by something featuring Simon Barnett. And then you'll see the wisdom in those words.

I'm sure we'll see one in this weekend's Herald on Sunday.

That would require an element of self-knowledge that I doubt you can have as an employee of the Herald without dying of shame. :)

JC is not there. Carol did a last show last Friday and signed off thanking…

(Didn't have the heart to surf over to Three, but my heart hurts watch John Campbell working at 2% of his potential.)

JC is not there. Carol did a last show last Friday and signed off thanking those she had worked with. No flowers on air to send her on…

Perhaps we can have an in-depth feature on people who suffer from dissociative disorders that allow them to compartmentalise and rationalise distasteful behaviour.

I'm sure we'll see one in this weekend's Herald on Sunday.

Perhaps we can have an…

glad for the verdict, but that doesn't mean we should give him some extra sentence specifically for being a complete jerk.

There's surely little doubt he'll get some extra punishment (perhaps enough even to satisfy the KB/Facebook crowd) where he's headed.

I'd almost stopped checking the NZ Herald site for…

I did find out that William Bell got the longest sentence ever in NZ – life in prison with a 30 year non-parole period, Mark…

http://twurl.nl/6mbcov

I think the key thing here is choice. Do we have a reasonable expectation that we should be able to consume news without hearing every gory detail?

Somehow its the gratuitous nature of the reporting that gets to me. It's the fact that news has become "reality tv", and overdramatised,…

For those who think a defence lawyer should always go as hard as possible: Weatherspoon will get a longer sentence having run this defence, and run it the way he did, and…

I also bumped into Otago's dean of law, Prof. Mark Henagan and had a good yarn to him about the case. He expects Weatherston will get at least 20 years.

It's nice to know that a learned legal mind has similar expectations to my own. Looking at past sentencing I've…

Is the person fit to plead? Do they understand the charges? If not then they may end up in hospital.

If fit to plead then they face trial.

If acquitted due to insanity they would then be…

"I'm not saying she deserved it, but...." line.

check his/her bag for lunch knife.

But has her name actually been smeared? I mean, does anyone here actually think she's a provocative slut who deserved to be murdered?

Everyone I've talked to about this seems to have horrified by Weatherston's claims about Elliot and seen right through them.

I'm sure this is true for the…

And, there *is* always an off switch if you dont have these…

What if we don't like either option, Stewart? Perhaps we'd like to watch the evening news without being dragged into a dungeon and recounted the horrors of a brutal murder, day after day after day.

As someone else said – the TV coverage is ratings driven. If people don't watch…

This trial and Weatherston's self-justifications reminded me of Crime and Punishment's Raskolnikov on more than one occasion.

Now that you've brought that up, I'm reminded of that old Dostoyevsky-fancier Howard DeVoto's song, Philadelphia:

I'd've been Raskolnikov
But mother nature ripped me off

Yes.

Did I walk away from TV news more often than ever before?

Yes.

Now the public know how such trials are conducted will things change?

Inevitably.

Does this mean many legal taboos are being challenged?

Sure does.

Let the light shine in.

I hope you're right

So do I Joe. It was a totally fucked up situation. and if anything the case did raise the issue for me as to what constitutes a mutually healthy relationship and when is it best to just walk away.

The judgement of the court in that case speaks far louder and longer than any missives and lies issued from a murderer's lips.

I hope you're right, though I'm not sure that it fully healed the damage done by the awful drawn-out farce that preceded the verdict.

Mark – the idea of removing the defence of provocation is to prevent the obscene farce of the law facilitating a killer attempting further damage to their victim.

There is something in that, but after [details supressed] there was very little damage that could be done. The judgement of the…

What catfight?

O…

And sexist? What little dark corner did you dredge up that from? Criticising a female is sexist?

No Tom, but you've been getting particularly liverish where the ladies are concerned recently. Perhaps I've been unfair, and you're an equal opportunities jerk.

What planet do you live on – oh... wait...…

Whether it will save lives is another issue.

Mark – the idea of removing the defence of provocation is to prevent the obscene farce of the law facilitating a killer attempting further damage to their victim.

Colin Bouwer. This is actually a timely reminder for other reasons. In all the speculation about mental state, intent etc., it's useful to re-consider a man who slowly slyly systematically poisons his wife over the course of months. And who presumably thought he could get away with it.

A mate…

Well at least you've stopped short of actively offering yourself as a role model.

The angst is fine Joe if that's your want, personally I feel it's misdirected.

Discussion of this case must – and will – be kept alive until the defence of provocation is dropped from the statute…

Wasn't the a high achieving psychiatrist also from Otago thats been banged up for murder?

Colin Bouwer. This is actually a timely reminder for other reasons. In all the speculation about mental state, intent etc., it's useful to re-consider a man who slowly slyly systematically poisons his wife over the…

Maybe, Tom, you should take a deep breath before you come across as a patronising, sexist arse.

Given the general level of vitriol from others here being directed at Abblet-Kerr, I am not entirely sure where you got patronising from.

And sexist? What little dark corner did you dredge up…

To address the catfight .

What catfight? I still stand by my suggestion that perhaps we should focus on having provocation as a defence thrown into the dustbin of history, and a little less on trashing Judith Ablett-Kerr. Various other people disagree.

and we can be 99% sure that this…

Personally I'm boycotting any further news stories on the topic in the interests of good taste.

Well at least you've stopped short of actively offering yourself as a role model. Discussion of this case must – and will – be kept alive until the defence of provocation is dropped from…

Wasn't the a high achieving psychiatrist also from Otago thats been banged up for murder?

I assume you're refering to the guy that poisoned his wife about five years ago ? His son was also arrested (in South Africa, their home country) for murdering his wife at the same time.…

Judith Ablett-Kerr. For going beyond her brief of providing a defence in this farcical case and, despite her mealy-mouthed protestations otherwise, putting the victim on trial.
Vile, vile, vile.

Of course, Angus, you've no contempt for the politicians who've let provocation stay on the books?

To address the catfight .…

there news items

their...

No, no problem at all. A conviction for manslaughter requires acceptance of responsibility for a death. BUT, if you came home and found an intruder had killed one of your children, dropped their weapon upon seeing you, and you still hit them over the head with…

Sophie's mother had rushed up and stabbed him in the back. Hell, I could understand a reasonable person losing control in those circumstances. As a juror, I'd prefer to be able to convict her for manslaughter than murder.

And there's the problem, isn't it? Sorry for sounding like a wet…

I also bumped into Otago's dean of law, Prof. Mark Henagan and had a good yarn to him about the case. He expects Weatherston will get at least 20 years.
He…

Sounds a bit Mary Whitehouse

I do worry about that. There are various forms of peversion and filth I'd rather not see, and others I wouldn't mind more of.

I think the key thing here is choice. Do we have a reasonable expectation that we should be able to consume…

Tom, use the 'Off' button (on your tv...)

Why should I have to?

Sounds a bit Mary Whitehouse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h9J2uLZ2jI

Ablett-Kerr was also playing it to the house – why? Who knows, maybe it is as simple as she can't can't control her ego.

Maybe, Tom, you should take a deep breath before you come across as a patronising, sexist arse.

Psychotic is when you think something is happening that isn't. If he thought she was actually literally Satan, that would be psychosis.

And perhaps we could leave the psychiatric diagnoses to people who 1) know what they're talking about and 2) actually have some kind of relationship with the person…

It's simply crime porn,and its a large reason why I'm getting more and more of my news from the internet: because TV is just a waste of time.

Quite. Ditto for the "news"-papers. I rely on secondary sources to filter things I might want to care about for me now;…

If you have a problem with what conduct people can get away with take it up with the system.

by her (then) LA Law type grandstanding.

This is another reason cameras need to be removed from our courts, pronto. It was clear that the Bain defense team were playing with one eye to the gallery out there in TV land. Ablett-Kerr was also playing it to the house -…

Never should anyone say to…

If I'm not much mistaken, Chris Comeskey invoked the provocation defence on behalf of Bruce Emery.

You are very much mistaken.

His defence was self defence.

But she instead commented on the grotesqueness of his use of the provocation defence to smear his victim, which is absolutely nothing to do with Women's Refuge.

A couple of years before my mother finally got it together and left my father, back in the days before women's refuges, we…

But she instead commented on the grotesqueness of his use of the provocation defence to smear his victim, which is absolutely nothing to do with Women's Refuge.

What it is is an extreme example of the humiliation of the victim, which is a major contributing factor to women's reluctance to…

What if we don't like either option, Stewart? Perhaps we'd like to watch the evening news without being dragged into a dungeon and recounted the horrors of a brutal murder, day after day after day.

It's simply crime porn,and its a large reason why I'm getting more and more of…