But who watches the bananas..

Bananaman, of course.

That's all I got.

Very, very different languages.

I was being ironic.
I only did one term at high school latin but had to study it again just so Craig had someone to talk to ;-)
I'm saving this one for Grant Dexter.
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

I bow to your obvious superiority in your own tounge. ;-)

It's so not my own tongue. Please observe the following (highly contrived) sentence:

I vitelli dei romani sono belli

In Latin, it means "Go Vitellius, to the warring call of the Roman God."

In Italian, it means "The Romans…

Musa is one of three genera in the family Musaceae; it includes bananas and plantains.

Yes, but more specifically the banana is musa sapientum. If you shift sapientum after aure it changes the meaning of the whole thing.

Musa fixa in aure sapientum est.

You have a muse stuck in your learned ear? I'm all confused now!

Te audire no possum.

non possum, surely?

Yeah cheers, Steve. You might want to take your own advice...

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

Careful Craig, you're starting to sound like redbaiter. yuk.

Yeah cheers, Steve. You might want to take your own advice...

In reality, they would quite possibly try to say: the person misremembered, or misunderstood, and here's what I really meant.

The beauty of cellphone and portable mp3 players that work also as recorders, huh? Not so much big brother is watching you as big brother is you, watching, as somebody…

“a clear cut ethical problem”? You’ll be able to answer my question above then: Why is taping a conversation you’re involved in unethical? (And there's not much legal debate; it is, per se, perfectly legal..)

[Craig:]... if I've got to explain why that's ethically problematic (as well as hellishly creepy),…

[Jeremy:] Sorry if I sounded overly combative...…

No worries. And I agree with much of what you’ve said. The labels ‘Liberal’ and ‘Conservative’ have become less meaningful, although in many contexts they can serve as useful shorthand.

And how come Hayden Jones now seems to be television's designated "tits" reporter after his scathing expose of the misunderstood Lisa Lewis the other night. The humanity.

That would have been Paul Hobbs you saw last Thursday.

Where was I when they taught political / porn…

.....i mean that you're employing a government for 3 years, you're encouraged to ask questions.

And where have I said anything different?

That guys got every right to ask and even challenge bill in civil discussion. politics has to be honest and consistent to work.

And that works both ways,…

.....i can't work out the debbie does dallas thing. .....don't bring porn into it, it's distracting.

Keep up — you do realise that "Deep Throat" was a notorious (and enormously successful) dirty movie in the 70's? As the little sneak doesn't think we deserve to know his identity, I just…

.....i mean that you're employing a government for 3 years, you're encouraged to ask questions. That guys got every right to ask and even challenge bill in civil discussion. politics has…

I wanna see your side dude and agree taping is fucked, imagine what mayhem you could cause.

but he's a politician talking politics, would it have been…

Would a CEO of a company let a senior executive tell 2 different stories to him. He'd want clarity

Jeremy: I'm seriously not trying to pick a fight here, but you'd really want to defend a employee covertly taping staff meetings? Really?

Yes, this isn't secret taping. That's right, we…

This should be self-evident, to generations raised since the Zapruder film of Kenedy's death entered the public record.

Bruce: Abraham Zapruder handed the film over to the Secret Service investigation of Kennedy's assassination, and gave public testimony to the Warren Commission where he identified himself. He was one of around…

National's response, however, has been disgraceful. Their attempts to dress this up as "gutter politics" is a redefinition of that phrase.

Worked a treat on the Jane Clifton and the Listener editorial board, who rose as one.

I wouldn't blog or publish anything he's said, because it's dishonest.

Agreed. If you have had a conversation with a person, politician or otherwise you should ask permission to publish the that conversation.

One of the good things about public figures in NZ is that they are generally very accessible…

Yes, this isn't secret taping. That's right, we are talking about a politician talking politics...what is wrong with knowing how he answers political questions?…

Giovanni: I find that rather ironic considering the amount of hot air expended around these parts decrying the media's idea of what constitutes "news".

So you're saying it ought to be Nicky Watson's tits and nothing else from now on?

I love how you always push the other side of…

One of the trade offs for seeking the power of government is an increased interest from media in…

He's a political journalist, his job is to report the news.

Giovanni: I find that rather ironic considering the amount of hot air expended around these parts decrying the media's idea of what constitutes "news".

I'm perfectly comfortable with politicians being recorded when they speak in public forums about what they intend to do with the country;

And I'm perfectly uncomfortable with covert taping of anyone without their knowledge and consent. I can't find a link on Stuff, but I found it rather amusing to…

And surely if I stand for public office, my history of mental illness (which I've been fairly candid about) is fair game and any ethical/legal issues around a therapist leaking patient records would be trumped by the public interest?

I'm perfectly comfortable with politicians being recorded when they speak in…

Yes Craig. Politicians speaking to punters at their national party conference; you in a psychotherapy session. Same thing really.

Well, if you want to take Steve's rather bland statement at face value it is — it's not called a "talking cure" for nothing. And surely if I stand for public…

Nor was legalisation of prostitution, or the Civil Unions legislation.

Like the anti-smacking bill, those last two were private members bills which the Labour leadership decided to make a party issue.

Tim Barnett's prostitution private member's bill was a conscience vote, not a whipped vote, and passed only narrowly. It…

There's a very good piece in the Atlantic Monthly on McCain, and why he's more of a true conservative than those on the Levitican Wing of the Republican Party.

And perhaps you've not spent any time in psychotherapy, but I have. Perhaps it would be fair game if I stood for Parliament, and secret tapes of my sessions ended up in Duncan Garner's in-box?

Yes Craig. Politicians speaking to punters at their national party conference; you in a psychotherapy…

Labour knew nothing about the s 59 repeal bill before the election.

Balderdash.

The Bill was a private members bill, introduced before the 2005 election. The crucial thing here is Labour had considered introducing its own anti-smacking legislation but got the jitters

At some point – we don't know when -…

“a clear cut ethical problem”? You’ll be able to answer my question above then: Why is taping a conversation you’re involved in unethical? (And there's not much legal debate; it is, per se, perfectly legal..)

Oy... I don't covertly tape conversations with anyone — and if I've got to explain…

Sure…

"Buckley was a Goldwater republican if we must label him, and nothing could be further from a neo-con on that side of that particular pale.
Correct. (And here’s a good blog on Goldwater, while I’m at it.)"

I believe you'll find goldwater was a goldwater republican , (although which goldwater…

@Paul Williams – I think my reply to you the Key(nesian) thread may have been eaten by the interweb, but I enjoyed reading your thoughts on PPP's.

Thanks, I'm sorry the discussion didn't continue further – I'm anything but expert, I've just watched things here and seen the very mixed…

I think the phrase "secret agenda" is misleading. We are talking about a "suspended" agenda. Thats what secret agent man confirmed for us and while Bills words aren't shocking or that contradictory to his previous historical statements it suggests strongly that national are suffering us an electorate, patting…

I believe you'll find goldwater was a goldwater republican , (although which goldwater…

On a more serious note, taping is wrong without prior knowledge.

Why?
And: would remembering what the other person said, and repeating it at a later date, be wrong?

The term neoconservative is at least thirty years old and has shifted in meaning somewhat, but never so much as to…

And which was almost adopted as a Government bill. "Secret agenda"? I don't think so, but you can't have it both ways.

You're ignoring what I said. It's not about what's done with it. If we're talking about pre-election behaviour, it's what is known before the election.

Labour knew nothing…

Labour 'spy' search hits dead end
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425825/1990948

National's witchhunt still on

Hum... whoever is loading content onto the website certainly has a point of view...

That's a weak argument Craig. Repeal of S 59 wasn't something that Labour had as public or private policy. It was a piece of legislation that came up through the Private Members Bill ballot

And which was almost adopted as a Government bill. "Secret agenda"? I don't think so, but…

As I understand it, something illegal debatably went on — arguably trespass if he gained access under false pretences.

It's only trespass if he broke in in some way. If he had a ticket or pass, he's an invitee to the event and trespass laws won't apply.

Anything that is…

They may regret their actions because the recordings and their broadcasting on TV3 will have an impact on National that…

I thought the way Campbell tied in the Catholic stuff towards the end of his piece was masterful.

Well, I'll say it was ingenious and leave it at that. Then again, I can think of all kinds of policy areas (abortion law, for one reasonably timely example) I'm near certain…

Craig, and I am not implying bad faith by saying that you're addressing the process rather than the content – I accept it is just what you personally find most significant here.

Oh, thanks for that. Seriously – not even a smidge of snark, because we're kicking around our POVs…

If this isn't a big deal, then why are National treating it as one

As others have pointed out, the focus on process rather than content is the party line

Well, Sacha, I just guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on how irrelevant 'process' really is. I saw the Media7 discussion on 'Smelling Bullshit' again last night, and I don't see…

I'v always wondered what 'neo-con' means, could someone like Richard Preble have earned that title?

You can say many things about Richard Prebble (I'll start: he's a despicable little man who thinks there should be no welfare in New Zealand), but a neo-con he ain't. You really only have to…

...as opposed to say John Tamihere

This is deeply ironic – or hypocritical. Remember, many of National’s attacks on the Electoral Finance Act in general and on Labour president Mike Williams in particular were based on the evils of an incumbent government using the…

Craig, it's sounding party line again. I admire Gordon Campbell's elaboration of the relative morality of secret taping compared with secret policy.

Frankly, Sasha, every tabloid scumbag can piously invoke 'the public interest' when it suits as well. I'm also getting a little tired of the equivalence being drawn with…

I think Pope had it right on butterflies.

"Who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel?" is a quotation – sometimes misquoted with "on" in place of "upon" – from Alexander Pope's "Epistle to Dr Arbuthnot" of January 1735. The line has entered common use and has become associated with more recent figures.

Keep reading because the man whose…

i hate the word indy, you're media or your not, independence..i'll read what you say to judge that.

what does his crime involve ?

talking politics.

His crime is asking a politician a political question.

Not at all, Jeremy. I think there's a clear cut ethical problem of covertly taping conversations without the knowledge or consent of the participants but whether that shades into a criminal offence is (granted) highly debatable.

But let's cash a reality…

As I understand it nothing illegal went on

As I understand it, something illegal debatably went on — arguably trespass if he gained access under false pretences.

Put an image of a person out for the media to harass?

Oh, now you get squeamish. :) But, hey, if Debbie Does…

As I understand it nothing illegal went on, so the National Party have been given the tapes to do what with? Put an image of a person out for the media to harass?

I'd' be much happier if the tapes had gone to the police. If…

I wonder how many party workers will be giving up their weekends for this? Wouldn't it be easier to introduce Duncan Garner to water-boarding?

I have a horrible feeling he'd enjoy it too much. :)

Like, faced with the reality of all that blood, snot and offal on the permafrost,…

NZPA reports:

Wellington City Council has given the National Party surveillance camera footage which might help it identify the infiltrator who secretly taped conversations with MPs at a cocktail party last…

. . . get a clue about what Stalin actually did . . .

Like, faced with the reality of all that blood, snot and offal on the permafrost, your dreams of a private gulag for your political enemies evaporated, along with your case of Stalin-envy? Good on you.

Well that was an extreme association.

sure, I wouldn't like being associated to them.

this kind of shit is the weakness of your writing Craig.

I say what I see , feel free to discuss but i've haven't got a secret agenda. I'm keen to work things out as much as you are.

Jeremy: Well, I used to be rather fond of poo-wording the…

this kind of shit is the weakness of your writing Craig.

I say what I see , feel free to discuss but i've haven't got a secret agenda. I'm keen to work things out as much as…

look his offspring are pretty stupid , who wasn't opposed, it was a fucking stupid move, all george bushes sr guys were against it to, it was dumb , so was cheney for along time.

anyway he's called the…

Listen to what buckley is saying to chomsky , he was milder than his offspring, sure but as arrogant as them.

start with william f(?) buckly if you like

I could, and if you think someone who was a vocal opponent of the Iraq War from the right – before it was fashionable – is any kind of "neo-con", then I've got to wonder what meaning it has at all except…

"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant"

My choice for Quote of the Decade.

start with william f(?) buckly if you like , actually go to you tube and watch him get taken apart by noam chomsky in the 1960's. Fascinating, up there with zappa on crossfire.

but they look so normal craig.

The notion of a family is a traditional conservative plank. it kinda rocks.Thats not to say modern political conservatism gives a fuck, in many ways their anti-family.

Don, that would have to be the very definition of poo words, when the utterer hasn't got a clue what they mean but has been told that it's bad and so flings them around. And ignorance don’t count fer shit in a faith-based reality.

Yes, Sacha. I've gotten in the…

I also admire the use of "bourgeois" along side "rampant socialisation" in that Herald diatribe.

Don, that would have to be the very definition of poo words, when the utterer hasn't got a clue what they mean but has been told that it's bad and so flings them around. And…

As Obama says, sometimes it seems as though "these guys take pride in being ignorant".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akjXqfvLu28

Labour have been very conservative in drug law

Well, Jeremy, if you want to talk about Labour's enthusiasm for wiping its arse (willingly enabled by nearly everyone else) on tiresome legal protections that evolved over centuries... I'd say you're actually looking as some rather radical people who've coating their radicalism…

Life is too easy in NZ. The bourgeois…

WfF, ETS, Kyoto, not joining War on Terror etc.

WfF: Tax credit aimed at working families. conservative.

ETS, Kyoto: Arguably conservative. Depending on how big you see the threat to our current way of life, arguably no where near conservative enough

not joining War on Terror: Not strictly true, but…

there is a seminal influence there .....literally for george bush to w .

Labour have been very conservative in drug law, workplace law, r&d,
new housing schemes, immigration, family law. I think they're…

We peasants don't deserve to know when we will next be allowed to chose our rulers.

That does certainly seem to be the attitude towards the populace.

Given that its our election, and the whole motley lot of them actually work for us, it would be nice if they would…

The National Party's bid to find out who secretly taped conversations with its MPs was dealt a blow when it was told there was no security camera footage of the cocktail party in the Town Hall.
...
National tonight released a letter from the council's chief executive, Garry Poole, who…

Maybe if someone announces an election date, we might get some policies....

We peasants don't deserve to know when we will next be allowed to chose our rulers.

I guess its how you view conservative. ...but point taken. They're not neo-conservative for sure .

Conservative and Neo-Con seem to me to be very different things. No meaningful comparison from my perspective.

Maybe the dog ate National's policies?

Maybe if someone announces an election date, we might get some…

OK, not a story if the paper is in the form of homework..

Maybe the dog ate National's policies?

I guess its how you view conservative. ...but point taken. They're not neo-conservative for sure .

the culprit is a dog

The story is a dog.

I also am not familiar with rubbish disposal in Helensville... and I also wouldnt be surprised if John Key is as oblivious to it as we are.... because while thats his electorate, it's not where he lives, which if my recall is correct, may be Parnell or similar(?)

Yes, he's…

well they are.

Jeremy, I don't agree at all. They might well be pretty orthodox in economic policy, but not in social, labour or foriegn policy. WfF, ETS, Kyoto, not joining War on Terror etc.

well they are.

We've got that government...

Somehow, I suspect the majority of the current govt ministers would not agree that they are representatives of a conservative govt.

The national party need to do some homework on us as an electorate, we need new ideas, not 3 years of the same while you wait for us to see the light. we need good ideas now..

I would have thought that was the last thing they need to do…

If you talk behind our back and suggest we can't be presented with…

The young nats, just like the old nats.....unhip. I bet they can't be all unhip Dr Smith. That's harsh. It's like calling your son boring.

jesus, i had a crazy notion I was in control of my reality. damn, best accept it uh?

And ain't nothing wrong with that, thinking that the present Government has moved the country in certain wrong directions, and that it's going to take a while to move back from that.

That would be nothing wrong with that indeed, it paints a pretty accurate picture of Labour going into…

For your eddumification I present a few clippings:

Item!

with the morals of an elderly uninvited funeral goer he/she helped themselves to wine and savouries while…

Hmmm. Don’t tell people now. Wait until you’re in power. Then use the platform of government to do what you REALLY had in mind all along, but didn’t dare risk saying out loud because people wouldn’t have voted…

It was an open admission that Labor's policies worked and are popular, and that therefore National has been forced to co-opt them. Pretty much an open secret, but to hear it put so candidly was startling. After a term in government, they'll try to get a mandate to do the…

but if it's happened to him TWICE and not his neighbors

Why, you think one taste of a Big Mac is enough to put a dog off for life?

Now, I'm not familiar with rubbish disposal in Helensville and welcome enlightenment from other PASers,

I also am not familiar with rubbish disposal in Helensville... and I also wouldnt be surprised if John Key is as oblivious to it as we are.... because while thats his electorate, it's not where…

Oh, balls. I do think the method is pertinent, but I've actually said that I find nothing sinister in what English, Lockwood Smith and Nick Smith actually said.

Not the last two, I agree. What English said was extremely interesting, I thought, although again not sinister as such. But pretty…

Fight against the substance by ignoring it and pointing at the method.

Oh, balls. I do think the method is pertinent, but I've actually said that I find nothing sinister in what English, Lockwood Smith and Nick Smith actually said. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, but I'm finding the imputations…

Love the photo of Key's rubbish strewn across the lawn.

*peers*

I see a fair bit of McDonald's packaging strewn around there. Now, I'm not familiar with rubbish disposal in Helensville and welcome enlightenment from other PASers, but if we're talking plastic bags and if there are stray dogs in…

Way to not answer the question.

Kyle – whatever. To paraphrase Margaret Wilson once more: Not really my problem if the answer isn't to your satisfaction.

Kyle, this is for you.

Aww. But I know you secretly recorded my idea, and you're clearly now Labour Youth.

Craig, for or against Woodward, Bernstein and Deep Throat?

Thank you, David!

...

Way to not answer the question.

I get the impression with National that they're adopting a George Bush-Iraq-911-terrorist type strategy.

Would you care to expand, or was that just a pretext to shoe-horn a poo-some Bush namecheck into the discussion?

OK. Bush repeated the phrases "Iraq" and "911" and "terrorist" and "weapons of mass destruction" next…

They are incontrovertible evidence that the National Party does not recycle (exception: their candidates). Several items on the grass belong in the blue bins. John Key needs to clear up this mess and sort it out.

In hindsight Dr Smith realised the man could not have been a Young Nat – he was too "hip".

(Obligatory link to the article) (Love the photo of Key's rubbish strewn across the lawn.…

Enough of this policy vacuum to-and-fro rubbish, how about actually the PM making a call and NZ entering the actual electioneering period so we can get the policies from ALL parties on the table so we can decide for ourselves.

As I said elsewhere, I can't see any practical or…

On a slight tangent, but related to the whole "secret agenda" spin, I'd really quite like an announcement to be made about when the election is going to be.

Enough of this policy vacuum to-and-fro rubbish, how about actually the PM making a call…

move along, nothing to hear here, just politics, nothing to concern yourselves with, drink more beer and go to bed.game over.

Jeremy: Well, James does have a point. I'm sure there are plenty of people in National who don't like the taste of sushi one little bit. In many respects,…

move along, nothing to hear here, just politics, nothing to concern yourselves with, drink more beer and go to bed.game over.

Fair points, well made. But, seriously, did anyone else watch tonight's effort, and think Debbie Does Dallas (sorry, 'Deep Throat' is spoken for) is kinda flogging a scared horse. :)

"We are quite deliberately in neutralise phase at the moment. We don't want to fight the election on Kiwisaver.…

On both TV3 Campbell live, and Back Benches tonight,an empty chair, then the empty slot with Wallace, (the show just before Media 7) was not what I would consider good tactics at a time of transparency.

Well, Sophie, I must admit that Campbell Live dropped off my media radar a…

An honest question...or is this it on that too?

Nothing more substantial that I have noticed. Policies for the National Party seem to be fluffy ducks to me.

A case of Labour can, National can do better.

Yeah, better get me a bucket :)

National's deliberate policy vacuum

And as an interested party abroad, I've spent the last hour or so trying to work out National's Foreign and Defence policies from their website and elswhere. There is this from a speech some months back but it says little and is at best vacuous and…

Yet your seem so happy to do the same caricature unto others?........

Yeah, Dave, people who don't agree with me don't believe in democracy. I prefer Stephen Colbert who actually intends statements like that to be read as a joke. *shakes head*

"I left them on the kitchen bench', smiles English embarrassingly.

And funny – bravo. :)

he's also not entitled to cry foul when speculation fills the gap.

Surely Craig you're talkin about yr man Key bitching about journos? You know, the ones who are bored by National's deliberate policy vacuum. The ones desperate for a story that isn't about how freakin amazing he is. The…

You sure as hell don't have any right to caricature my views because you don't like some uppity peasant disagreeing with you. I don't eat that shit from the Redbaiters of this world, and I'm sure not taking it from you.

Yet your seem so happy…

No, the policies haven't been stolen. They're in basement, in the safe, and will be put on display before the election, but only under tight security. There's a risk that the Labour Party, short on inspiration and willing to do anything to win this election, will steal them.

The dog…

Maybe National could clear all this up and explain that we're all confused, and do this by saying: here, explained in detail, is what our policies actually are.

Adopt the democratic source and actually be honest witht he electorate?

No chance. it might "scare the horses"

(Someone should probably tell…

Except in private between consenting adults. Contemplating Bill and Mary getting their freak on gives me entirely the wrong kind of shivers.

You had to go there, didn't you?

Having read my own post, I want to stress I'm not suggesting the "tenacious poster" has anything to do with said Spin Meister =)

Now that I've finally figured out what the hell you were on about, that was a very smart course of action.

Craig no need to wait, that was Judith Collins line not so long ago. I see she still holds a front bench position under the new "gutter free" leadership.

Well, Don, if my memory serves Collins was forced to withdraw and apologise because you're not allowed to call another MP…

No, the policies haven't been stolen. They're in basement, in the safe, and will be put on display before the election, but only under tight security. There's a risk that the Labour Party, short on inspiration and willing to do anything to win this election, will steal them.

Or worse,…

Maybe they are hoping the police will turn something up."

POLICE FIND MISSING NATIONAL PARTY POLICIES.

"I left them on the kitchen…

Maybe they are hoping the police will turn something up.

LOLnui!