Her argument consists of guilt-by-association anecdotes.

Frankly, no, it doesn't. And I think she does make an empirical argument that is not so easy to dismiss, although of course you're free to find it lacking. FWIW I wasn't entirely sold, as I may have said upthread. And the fact that…

But as far as I could see, Klein never actually makes an empirical argument along the lines of "undemocratic governments are more likely to make pro-market reforms". Her argument consists…

Would it be wrong to give Mugabe economic advice on ending hyperinflation in Zimbabwe?

The beginning and end of such advice would have to be: get the hell out of the country, Rob. One of the issues in facilitating an end to his regime seems to be precisely that he's…

That’s right the Neocons want/need another terrorist attack on US soil to bring Americans back to their senses!

Coincidentally I am re-reading Conrad's "The Secret Agent" by Conrad. All of the above, it's been covered...100 years ago.

fixed.
I mean, really.

Very succinctly and eloquently put, sir. The Wiki reminds us too of how many people refused to be seen with him, dead.

But that seems even weaker. Since when is it a sin to give policy advice to any country whose leadership is systematically torturing, murdering and 'disappearing' tens of thousands of its citizens?

fixed.

I mean, really.

After the 2006 Congreesional elections Secy of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is caught on tape saying:

“This President's pretty much a victim of success. We haven't had an attack in five years.…

There's a superb BBC4 three-parter about the British radical left of the late 70s and early 80s, called Lefties. Lots of great what were they thinking? moments,

They were bullies and thugs. Not above handing out the odd beating our two in an SU bar I was familiar with. Typical…

Then the article is wrong.

The MORI polls (online) show Conservative support at 34% in March, before the Falklands war (in fact, before anybody had even heard of the Falklands), and rising to 48% in June, when the war ended. That was not due to economic policy. During those three…

This article argues that the Falklands war produced a boost to Conservative popularity of at most three percentage points for a period of only three months.

Then the article is wrong.

The MORI polls (online) show Conservative support at 34% in March, before the Falklands war (in fact, before anybody…

Since always. And Friedman's remark that if Allende had been left in power a few years down the road the Chileans would have fared even worse than under Pinochet is despicable to say the least. The man wasn't deposed; he was murdered.

That reminds me of Owen McShane's infamous quote…

Big difference between not vehemently opposing and actively helping out – Friedman did the latter

But that seems even weaker. Since when is it a sin to give policy advice to any country that isn't a liberal democracy?

Since always. And Friedman's remark that if Allende had been left in…

Big difference between not vehemently opposing and actively helping out – Friedman did the latter

But that seems even weaker. Since when is it a sin to give policy advice to any country that isn't a liberal democracy? I doubt you or Klein would have had any problem with this…

The recovery of her fortunes was a direct result of her handling of the Falklands War.

There was that.

But this:

Thus macroeconomic factors were at the root of the revival of Mrs Thatcher's political fortunes, and most of the boost to government popularity which occurred in the spring of…

onathan Chait seems to be an apologist for Milton Friedman, who has attempted to simplify and ridicule Klein's anlysis so that we'll all look the other way, while the neo-cons get on with the job.

Er, hardly. These are the opening paragraphs from his article from September last year, [[http://www.tnr.com/columnists/story.html?id=880f4273-e2d6-4914-b15b-ffcce401155a|Feast…

The Falklands crisis merely coincided with a jump in government popularity which would have occurred anyway in the wake of Geoffrey Howe's 1982 Budget.

Having been in London at the time the bounce from the very real and tangible patriotic fervour was obvious. The, for want of a better phrase,…

Attacking Friedman for not vehemently opposing Pinochet's regime seems kinda weak to me

Big difference between not vehemently opposing and actively helping out – Friedman did the latter, no matter how careful he later became to combat the perception that he was working for Pinochet. He was invited to give…

Attacking Friedman for not vehemently opposing Pinochet's…

No mention of Roger Douglas or Ruth Richardson?

I was honestly waiting for that – I wouldn't have dreamt of raising it myself. But she doesn't mention it in the book either, and one has to wonder if the fact that Lange got a second term was too hostile to…

Thanks, its easy as piss though. All you have to do is disengage brain and make 3 to 6 correlations.

Klein's analysis is hopelessly flawed at virtually every level. Friedman's own words reveal him to be an advocate of peace, democracy, and individual rights. He argued that gradual economic reforms were often preferable to swift ones…

1992 Draft Defense Planning Guidance
Written by then-Defense Department staffers I. Lewis Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, and Zalmay Khalilzad for then-Defense Secretary Dick Cheney
The report called…

But of course it was a cock-up. Not intentional. Oh no. Never.

I think the record of massive incompetence displayed by the Bush administration from there on sort of supports the cock-up theory, no?

reforms toward free markets are an evil blight upon world driven by a cabal of war-mongering American corporate imperialists.

Actually Angus that's a pretty good description that sums it up really! Well done.

You're channelling rightwingtalkingpoints.com right?

Noting the positive effect of reforms supported by, amoung many others, the Chinese Communist party, Congress of India and the ANC is very rarely seen as "channelling rightwingtalkingpoints.com". The reforms are international phenomena, widely supported because of the positive effects they confer.

How many time does…

The official US policy on security is, in parts, a cut / paste of the PNAC document cited. The rest is a slightly more palatable re-expression of almost all of the fundamental points in the PNAC "draft".

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf

The trashing of competing centres of power (UN and…

Simon, Maureen Dowd! You mean the elderly schoolgirl of the NYT. Doesnt get any lighter weight than that.

Oh, okay, if you say so. The reason I posted that was not because of Dowd but because of those she quotes in the piece, all of whom are taken from other…

But it's mostly a big 'known unknown'. We're not going to find out much either so speculation is all we got. Irresponsible not to.

The already mentioned Feith ('stupidest fncking guy on the face…

The problem for Naomi is over 800 million people within developing nations have been freed from grinding hand to mouth subsistance poverty by themselves reforming to increase market participation.

You're channelling rightwingtalkingpoints.com right?

They didn't know what was coming next, but they now knew that there was no limit to…

There is an uncut two-part Daily Show interview with weaselly Feith which lasts the best part of 20 minutes here.

Was that the interview where Jon Stewart started it (post-interview, edited in) by apologising for the interview that was to follow, and finished the actual interview by saying "well, I…

The file is damaged and could not be repaired.

Oh noes!

In the unlikely event that this isn't a stuffup on my end, is there any other source for the PNAC doc?

They were aware that 9/11 could have been 30,000 dead.

And that had fuck all to do with Iraq. But I refer you to Danielle's point: even allowing that the case for Iraqi WMD was made in good faith (which is one hell of a concession), the claim on the…

ROFL!!!!!1!!!!!

the c-word three times, and there he is.

i actually gaffawed when i saw that the j-man had popped in.

Yep, quite pleased with how that worked out.

Anyhoo, with regard to conspiracy theories, I reckon Russell only posted this up because he's just trying to boost his advertising…

they all just show what a trivial medium TV is when people are out to score cheap and boring points – eg the war has gone badly, you didnt anticipate x and y

Actually, it's clear that the point Jon Stewart was making was far more complex than that, particularly…

Regarding the various interviews with Feith, they all just show what a trivial medium TV is when people are out to score cheap and boring points – eg the war has gone…

Seriously, have you guys bothered to read her books?

I have read articles of her's online, not the books. They have a consistent theme.

The problem for Naomi is over 800 million people within developing nations have been freed from grinding hand to mouth subsistance poverty by themselves reforming to…

I know a bit more about Katrina than most people I meet.

We have argued this issue about 974,000 times, James, but 'I was there!' does not a coherent argument make. Nor does 'I blame the people who didn't leave' (class-ay!) or repeating the 'state and local authorities! state and…

44 minutes.....

ROFL!!!!!1!!!!!

the c-word three times, and there he is.

i actually gaffawed when i saw that the j-man had popped in.

I went to a rally, I saw Naomi Klein speak and she is hot...

Naomi Klein – the Ann Coulter of the fundamentalist left?

Give me a break.

Seriously, have you guys bothered to read her books? I agree that at times she's irritatingly simplistic, but it's not as if the basic claims in Shock Doctrine are outlandish. Or new, for that matter. But…

a paranoid loon who strings a bunch of bs together into a screed that the gulible and ignorant sadly lap up.

I have to. I can't help myself. It sounds remarkably like GWB.

Katrina. Read the "From" below my name. I know a bit more about Katrina than most people I meet.

So what was your experience of Katrina, James? Were you living in NO at that time? Did you manage to get out beforehand and how has it been for you since?…

Space warfare. With so much in our modern world depending on…

no logo is…

Perhaps Osama is hiding in the Kuiper Belt?

Most illuminating.

Try for a starter a view from the inside of US policy: War and Decision, by D J Feith, former under secretary for Defence.

Care to summarise what the little man had to say? I saw a couple of his interviews when he was promoting the book (including the one…

Try for a starter a view from the inside of US policy: War and Decision, by D J Feith, former under secretary for Defence.

James, is that you?

Which is about right, even today. The lack of understanding of the role economics has to play is, however, terrifying.

that might actually be the other salient point from charles stross, halting state, economic warfare is the real c21st weapon.

much less messy, for starters.

Terrorists and terrorism are mentioned three times in passing in nearly 80 pages.

Which is about right, even today. The lack of understanding of the role economics has to play is, however, terrifying.

Except that free-market absolutism has not been applied anywhere within that time period.

Huh?

Chait writes that after the terrorist attacks of 2001, Klein, the author of No Logo, "went through the transition from intellectual guru of the movement against Starbucks to intellectual guru of the movement against the Pentagon, and came…

He's either as mad as the rest of them or simply doesn't understand. Maybe he can't find it on a map......

I think that's because he's looking for it over by the Iraq-Pakistan border...

=|

disasters that are not the result of conspiracy (she says so explicitly)

Though there is the bit where she highlights NeoLibs at the IMF and World Bank talking about the desirability of provoking crisis so as to have an excuse to implement "reform". And a couple of examples from Canada…

Oh yeah — the space stuff is awesome. Or possibly pathological.

Maybe in the context of this particular report it may be looniness (can't be bothered looking at it for the particular spin given), but distinct Space Forces has been long mooted. The actual spending on military space assets by…

Warehouse full of donated goods being left to rot, donated goods sold, and so on

*almost* as bad as pledging "a billion dollars" to tsunami relief, then forgetting to sign the cheque.

thank god that little rodent is out of government.

I'm still furious/horrified/gobsmacked by how all that played out.

Al Jaz has been running a series here of after-the-afterwards pieces recently and the stuff two years on was almost as horrifying. Warehouse full of donated goods being left to rot, donated goods sold, and so on

I'll figure it out one day. (And he crept quietly away.)

Please don't go James. When Simon's friend arrives, it'll be worth the wait :)

sorry, an assumption on my part is that the pre-911 conspiracy is widely known.
i'm not convinced by that.

Neither is Klein, just to be clear.

This scathing critique of "The Shock Doctrine" is also worth reading for a wider-ranging review of Klein's thesis.

You mean for the entertainment factor? This guy is one of the biggest Friedman apologists on the market. I'm not saying that he's not entitled to write a critique of Klein's book,…

Always appreciate your thoughts James, but the tongue in my cheek was pointed elsewhere.

I'll figure it out one day. (And he crept quietly away.)

it was around the time of Katrina that the united front started to crack

Nostradamus hat: I'm going to predict that in the future, Katrina will be seen by historians as a much more important contributor to the Great Disillusionment. I'm still furious/horrified/gobsmacked by how all that played out.

Trying to work and, as always with PAS, being distracted.

Always appreciate your thoughts James, but the tongue in my cheek was pointed elsewhere.

I wasn't suggesting that Iraq follows legitimately from 9/11

sorry, an assumption on my part is that the pre-911 conspiracy is widely known.

some have suggested that there existed orders from high in the bush administration to *let the planes hit the buildings*. it would provide a big dose of…

The Klein Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Polemics

Where's James when you need him to tell us how it really is?

Trying to work and, as always with PAS, being distracted.

Underestimating human incompetence: the common trait of conspiracy theorists.

Yes. We seem to have this innate need to believe that "they" are smarter than we think. They're not – just a bunch of greedy, small minded selfish halfwits in my experience.

BTW, I think the rich list is hugely relevant.…

I might have the timeline wrong, but it seems to me that it was around the time of Katrina that the united front started to crack.

But for all that there is a refusal by the more ardent to recognise that, and an inability to recognise the huge shifts that…

Terrorists and terrorism are mentioned three times in passing in nearly 80 pages.

Contrast this with Bush's 'Axis of Evil' speech in 2002. Lenka Clayton, an English film-maker, broke the speech down into its individual words and arranged them in alphabetic order

If it wasn't so frightening it would be funny.…

iraq otoh? if those neocon fkcers had been planning to murder an individual other than hussein they'd all be on death row for premeditation.

I wasn't suggesting that Iraq follows legitimately from 9/11, it was obviously well planned in advance as is well documented, but without 9/11 Saddam would have…

Well, they did get their Pearl Harbour, though, it's not as if it happened by force of persuasion alone

although, the 20-20 hindsight applied to the pre-twin towers intelligence provides some pretty fertile ground for the conspiracy theorists.

i'm in the: "the spooks just didn't know what they were looking…

The ease with which they all moved over to the Islamist threat is quite remarkable.

Well, they did get their Pearl Harbour, though, it's not as if it happened by force of persuasion alone. What Shep said about the song sheet is very valid, at any rate, the discipline of…

back then the great civilisational clash was with "confucianism" not "islamofascists".

It certainly was. A fair chunk of the wingnut bestsellers published by Regnery up till 2001 had the China threat as their theme. The ease with which they all moved over to the Islamist threat is quite remarkable.

This week's Media7, featuring NBR's Nevil Gibson, Bridget Saunders and Laila Harre discussing the merit and meaning of the annual NBR Rich List

The final quote from Bridget Saunders at the end of your show was lol funny.

This knuckleheaded approach is all the more remarkable when you consider that the authors are at least as paranoid about China as they are about any Arab state.

god... i remember that 1990s thinking from a former, academic, life. i couldn't believe that the US was willingly seeking to make…

And in a piece (not online) in The Straits Times earlier this year McCain continued the same 'ring China' argument as a way to 'contain' her. It's not over yet.

He's either as mad as the rest of them or simply doesn't understand. Maybe he can't find it on a…

Hopefully, we'll run out of oil before it gets to that point.

http://www.afspc.af.mil/

That document is bizarre — page 12 — "Pave the way for the creation of a new military service — U.S. Space Forces".

Yeah, that's pathological indeed. The aim there is to produce a worldwide web of orbiting satellites, each armed with projectiles that can be rained down on any…

He's either as mad as the rest of them or simply doesn't understand. Maybe he can't find it on a…

Not having read "Shock Doctrine" but it sounds like the 1980s&90s to me.

Those free market plans Clark, Cullen & Bolger started and are now correcting.

I subscribe to Alan Moore's take on things.…

"Israeli-aligned neocons" — I would call them Likud-aligned.

True. I guess you could say "Likudnik" is indeed shorthand for for the former.

FWIW Greg Palast says you can read the approach of the iraq occupation as a competition between the shiny neocon type after the free market paradise and the US oilmen who would be happy to pillage but are content with the whole thing being a roiling mess.

But as Chait…

That document is bizarre — page 12 — "Pave the way for the creation of a new military service — U.S. Space Forces".

Oh yeah — the space stuff is awesome. Or possibly pathological.

Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is just about here then...

But she may have committed the fatal mistake of believing her enemies are far cleverer than they really are.

Underestimating human incompetence: the common trait of conspiracy theorists. That said, while it is true that the passing of time has made the project's authors seem not so much nefarious as…