All I'm jaded about is talking about it.

Maybe that's because you've made six posts on the topic?

Isn't the obvious solution to stop talking about it? ;)

And I suggest that that the differences between the two main parties with regard to public assets, public spending, the funding of schools, workers rights, taxation and social reform have been marked compared to what goes on in other Western democracies.

Doesn't seem that marked to me. Almost every asset,…

So when you say that NZ would be a very different place if National had governed, I suggest that only a NZer would even notice the difference.

And I suggest that that the differences between the two main parties with regard to public assets, public spending, the funding of schools,…

Green is obviously organic and the sugar is sourced from their sugar beet & the milk is from feral goats (no added flavour – organic or otherwise)

Act would be the over full export varieties from tip top (prior to its closure) that are printed in foriegn languages…

Look, this isn't student politics or fantasy government.

Just as well!

To the extent that the politics of a country is influenced by its elected legislators, these are things that make a material difference in people's lives and in the character of our communities.

To the extent that it's influenced…

So I'm not sure the abundance of choice served us that well.

Yup, if the Italians really wanted a blend of vanilla, fruit and nuts then a bunch of judges saying they have to have mint one year, and then hokey pokey the next is going to cause strife, for…

Oh, yes I forgot. Yay fruit..Booo nuts.

Look, this isn't student politics or fantasy government. To the extent that the politics of a country is influenced by its elected legislators, these are things that make a material difference in people's lives and in the character of our communities.

I'll still eat Big Bikkies dipped in extra chocolate sauce one day, and nutty caramel the next, but I'm beginning to not see any point in trying to expand anyone else's palette.

When mixed proportionality meets mixed metaphorizing. (Try to say that aloud five times in a row).

It seems…

Capitalism vs Socialism
Small taxes vs Big expenditure
Business vs Social
Good Promises vs Drab Detail
etc vs etc

...but only by a 1% margin

We could have a grand coalition in this country and not notice the difference. It's just a hangover from FPP that we…

Yeh, that's what I meant . How long does it take to make a ghetto?

I reckon most of the people threatening to clear off to Aussie because we pay too much tax are estate agents, salespeople and the odd accountant. All of whom we can easily replace, or do without.

Lol
I am just watching 60 mins. There is a story about donors because Australian…

Sorry bud didn't mean to come across so heavy. I was alluding to organising in a social way not so…

"Heh, that's funny.People said similar things in 1968, and then it actually looked vaguely possible, unlike today.Sadly, despite what you can read on the Socialist Worker (and other) posters, the revolution isn't coming to NZ."

Yeh poverty, it's hilarious.

You should take the 'funny' line as being on a different…

Yeh poverty, it's hilarious. I think we're talking about a different concept of revolution.I'm referring…

Yeh I love the way capitalism dealt to the health issues of the American public, stirring stuff. Look Kyle don’t take it so personally , you didn’t invent capitalism and of course the…

Shep asks about academic publication. We haven't yet got to the 'publish or…

A few years ago, on a trip to the Coromandel, I caught up with the late Michael King and also a former colleague from the Ministry I used to work at. Both had recently returned to teaching at the University of Waikato.

"How's…

If you work out the hourly rate of teacher…

Increased pay rates will only lead to better outcomes, if a significant number of teachers have been sitting around doing a half-decent job because their pay is so bad, and now that they've got back up to something that they consider 'reasonable', all of a sudden they're going to work…

Yep, teachers, doctors and nurses are paid more, which was overdue. Now when do we see some improvements in outcomes for the populace?

I know the unions used this as an argument, but I don't buy it, or think it's necessary.

Increased pay rates will only lead to better outcomes,…

Could we elect a Government that actually gives a shit about child poverty? Instead of one that waves away reports from…

Average class sizes in secondary schools of high 20s compared to low 20s throughout Europe. British teachers campaigning for a maximum class size of 20 while we put up with an average of 26. Meanwhile my school is so broke it's closer to 28…

Thanks for your comments. I'm at work now, and the only thing likely to make me more grumpy than working on Sunday is not achieving anything because I was too busy arguing in PA System. So I'll keep things short and make this my last comment :)

With…

I suspect we are talking past each other somewhat. What I've been trying (perhaps unsucessfully) to say is that the rate of improvement in outcomes has (in too many cases) been close to zero, whilst the cost has been massive.

Putting this in a fairly cold context, at what…

Thanks for your comments.

Education outcomes are improving, albeit too slowly. Do you have any suggestions about how we might speed this up and not spend more money in the area?

With regards to health – I agree entirely about the need to pay doctors and nurses more. As…

Yep, teachers, doctors and nurses are paid more, which was overdue. Now when do we see some improvements in outcomes for the populace?

earlier on, I pointed out that every year roughly a quarter of the population leave school with less than level 1 NCEA. Effectively this means they…

It's a pity that people feel that way. The underclass hasn't increased in proportion to our population, nor have they got worse off in an absolute sense.

Teachers are paid more, as are doctors and nurses (seeing as we're talking about the brain drain). Primary health care fees have…

If you can't accurately read what other people have written, or correctly represent it in your own posts then I'm inclined to agree: future discussions on this topic will be fruitless.

The table is interesting too – it suggests that if we were to emulate Australia and add a new top tax band at $150,000 we could generate considerable extra tax revenue.

And spend it on what? We've ploughed Billions of extra spending into a huge range of areas, and sadly…

Me: Permanent/long term departures are up 12% over last year
Terence w: Yes but our population has grown too.

Okay, that's it. I'm outta here. Its been fun.

The total number of permanent departures – 80,000 – is the highest since records began.

Yes but our population has grown too. As a proportion of our total population the figure is no greater than it was in previous decades.

Out of interest, do any of your statistics suggest that…

The table is interesting too – it suggests that if we were to emulate Australia and add a new top tax band at $150,000 we could generate…

most Australians don't live on the Gold Coast, and most pommes don't live in Chelsea.

I did in fact live in Chelsea and left my job in a merchant bank to come be a scientist back in New Zealand so I'm aware that not all life-decisions made are financial ones.…

I'm afraid that when people talk about going to Australia, my first, very immature and unspoken, thought is – well, go on then.

That's all very well until you need radiation therapy – or even a dentist or plumber – and find out those services are either prohibitively expensive or…

...
– tax deductible private health insurance
...
– income splitting

Good points!

income splitting is under consultation at the moment: personally I think children should come with a tax allowance that can be allocated to one or both parents as long as they live with them. We could wind…

much warmer country right next door

Speaking as someone who's just spent the last week in Melbourne and Canberra, my advice on this one is – if you do leave – don't believe the hype. And do pack some woolens. It was freezing, colder than Wellington even...

Since we're already experiencing the problems I describe this flies in the face of simple common sense.

With the exception of health, where the issue is real, our problems with brain drain aren't that huge. What's more they are no bigger than they were in the late 80s and early…

If my wife and I move to Australia then our after-tax incomes increase by roughly 80% overnight, due to wage and tax disparities.

a) People don't stay or leave countries based solely on monetary concerns.
b) You're bitching about taxes/WFF, but the real problem is that our wages suck.

Not…

I think it unlikely that a modest raise in the top marginal tax rate is likely to lead to the problems you describe.

Since we're already experiencing the problems I describe this flies in the face of simple common sense. Surely another 'modest raise' is going to make the currently…

The top 20% of taxpayers account for approximately 60% of income tax revenue and the reality is that New Zealand is competing with other countries – especially Australia – for those workers. If the counter-revolution involves additional wealth distribution – and I've no doubt it does – then instead of…

I'm open to being corrected if I'm wrong here (memory poor as ever) but WFF is hardly socialism, nor is it taking your money and giving it to someone else. It's a form of earned income tax credit, in which people's own money is returned to them depending on…

Given the hostility from the top 20% – the bourgeoise middle class – to programmes like WFF, what chance would any program of genuine wealth re-distribution for the "undeserving poor" enjoy in the new Chile that is New Zealand? My guess is zero.

Crikey! As half of a duo who…

..to countries that are facing similar social inequalities that will be timebombs if not addressed.

Based on what woolly-arsed theory? Capitalism isn't looking like falling over in the next couple of decades.

..to countries that are facing similar social inequalities that will be timebombs if not addressed. It's a matter of engaging the top…

We would be if more people were afforded the decency of time and education to actually weigh the truth…

Pardon me for being desperate to understand how you think that's acceptable in a democratic system that should hold its elections based on policy not popularity.

Wait. I thought we were talking about New Zealand elections. Where's this happening?

WFF was needed and still is needed, income splitting would be good to.

The…

I've been baffled by Campbell Live's recent dip into dumbed down articles as well. Campbell himself looks uncomfortable presenting them; he puts on a facial expression that suggests he knows it's a crap story, but that it's been foisted on him and he knows it's crap, but has to just…

Honestly, Craig, sometimes I wished you stopped sugarcoating your opinions and started telling us how you really feel.

How about Georgina Beyer deserves an honorary life membership in National for sparing us from the prospect of Paul Henry, MP? Perhaps you've got to accept that a true House of Representatives…

http://oppthumb.blogspot.com

The crap psychic auditions for the next series Sensing Bullshit are next door, and the long-distance psychoanalysis isn't working for you either. I do try to do people the courtesy of fairly and accurately engaging with what they actually say, and would appreciate it being returned.

Craig, sorry if you…

I don't expect Paul Henry to do anything other than masturbate on air, so it doesn't shock me when Clark and Key on Breakfast is the televisual equivalent of warterboarding

Honestly, Craig, sometimes I wished you stopped sugarcoating your opinions and started telling us how you really feel.

Campbell himself looks uncomfortable presenting them; he puts on a facial expression that suggests he knows it's a crap story, but that it's been foisted on him and he knows it's crap, but has to just trudge on stoically.

Exactly, I don't expect Paul Henry to do anything other than…

I'd also suggest having a look at the school leaver stats that you'll also find on the education counts site, they don't make for such rosy reading.

http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/schooling/school_leavers2/school_leavers/school_leavers_2006

Table 2 effectively says that in 2005, 28% of school leavers had less than level 1 NCEA, and in…

I wonder if you'll feel the same way once the Nats start handing out wheel-barrows of your former cash to private prisons, hospitals, schools and whoever else writes Key a big check in the next few months.

I don't like a number of things that the government does with money…

My question is, at what point should the general public start expecting to see some returns on this investment in terms of a greater proportion of kids leaving school who are equipped to onto further study (or at the very least being able to read and write)?

Our best students…

In theory ORRS funding should be bottomless: so long as your child fits the criteria, the funding should be provided.

Cannot agree with this enough. I'm looking at this ORS funding release, wondering if it'll get my daughter her itinerant back, and thinking probably 'fat chance'.

...but hasn't Three News and Campbell Live been finding recently that dumbing down is doing it no good in the ratings?

I've been baffled by Campbell Live's recent dip into dumbed down articles as well. Campbell himself looks uncomfortable presenting them; he puts on a facial expression that suggests he…

Did you know that John Key himself in his Wellington parliamentary office employs has 36 people?… they cost the taxpayer, every year… over seven million dollars… Teams of PR people and spin doctors and policy advisers and what for? There…

I wouldn't have thought that many begrudge extra spending....

I wonder if it will allow my son to attend school on a full time basis...or if I will be required to pay for the extra aide time as is expected now.

Quite. The extra 18 mil for ORRS is supposed to add 250 kids to the scheme, but makes…

So modest that only 11% of the population earn more, according to the latest data.

Which to be fair, is a fair bit higher than the 5% of the population who got hit with the 39c rate when it first came in. It does suggest that based on the link…

2.67 million in extra money for teacher aide support for students with high health needs, 2.4 million to maintain "maintain levels of learning support for students with physical disabilities"

As a parent of a child who receives ORRS funding...and whose child requires a teacher…

At least what the Herald called 'pork' isn't really pork as you'd see it overseas, where it literally does buy the votes of elected representatives.

No, overseas (and here, one hopes) "buying" the votes of elected representatives is called bribery, influence peddling, etc. 'Pork' is when elected representatives engage in…

Special education gets a desperately-needed boost with an additional $18.4 million over four years for students with high needs.

It irks me the way they frame that increase in funding, though. To wit:

__This initiative, which is demand-driven, increases the number of students provided for by the Ongoing and Reviewable…

I'm culturally offended, Miss.

"even $70,000 is a modest income these days"

So modest that only 11% of the population earn more, according to the latest data.

After venturing that "even $70,000 is a modest income these days"

Off in fucking la-la land.

It's hard to imagine any of New Zealand's major papers running this rather witheringly accurate piece, which, I guess, just shows how out-of-touch they are.

Yes. This isn't new though – we've had family assistance, Muldoon and superannuation promises etc. WFF is more of that.

I know its not new – what I object to is being told that WFF is the socio-economic dike straining to hold back a torrent of poverty and famine instead…

What I DO mind is a party – any party but in this case it happens to be Labour – decides to simply take some of my money and give it to someone else, in exchange for that persons vote. From my perspective that's what happened with WFF.

Yes. This…

Divorced? I don't think they made it as far as the altar.

Oh snap, Lucy! That was good. :)

70k is a modest salary if you are part of the new New Zealand middle class.

I thought *I* was middle class. Since I earn the princely sum of 41,100 a…

The Conservative Party has achieved its first by-election gain in 26 years, taking the previously safe Labour seat of Crewe and Nantwich.

Tory candidate Edward Timpson won 7,860 more votes…

What really bugs me is that I had to vote for them anyway because the National Party under Brash was not an alternative.

From a tactical perspective, I suggest it would have been better to vote for the Greens.

Why ? Because if the Greens hadn't made the 5% threshold…

Sure, maybe. I really don't think so. Instead of quibbling over terms (look how far that got us) I'll simply state my case.

Taxation in which the state gathers revenue to provide citizens with goods and services doesn't fit my definition of socialism;…

Labour has been very bloody generous to the breeders in the past four years

I've breed 2 in the last 4 years, I'm not feeling the love Russell. Remind me again please where Labour has been

Bloody Generous

The pre-school my kids go to part time refuses to partake of…

Jesus Christ. These people are utterly divorced from reality, aren't they?

Divorced? I don't think they made it as far as the altar.

even $70,000 is a modest income these days

Jesus Christ. These people are utterly divorced from reality, aren't they?

Don't say that too loudly around Craig. He calls it "prudent" for National not to release policy yet. I think he believes that Labour cannot come up with any policy of its own unless National comes up with it first.

Matthew:

Sorry for the tardy response, but I had to…

'Eye to eye 'on Maori TV sunday at 6:30 pm is always fun,Craig.

In much the same way topless jelly wrestling is fun, Peter — messy, degrading to all concerned, probably in breech of multiple health and safety standards but strangely hypnotic. :) I do have to work on my…

'Eye to eye 'on Maori TV sunday at 6:30 pm is always fun,Craig.

I think Eye To Eye is a TVNZ production, (first screens on TV1 on a Sunday morning), and is replayed on Maori TV. The sunday morning slot may be unfortunate, but I understand it still outrates the…

And seriously, would you say "yes" to a complete stranger on the phone who asked you the question "Do you want a tax cut if it meant cuts in Health and Education"?

I'm one of the few people who would say 'no' to the straight question 'do you want a…

Well Kyle, Labour has announced its tax policy. There is no reason now why it can't be trumped...is there?

Yes but they probably figure it'll have more impact as part of the election campaign, rather than a budget response. It's their biggest election policy, as big as the others all…

While I hate to say it, if I'm going to suffer through prime time television news and current affairs One tends to win out by default.

'Eye to eye 'on Maori TV sunday at 6:30 pm is always fun,Craig.

"...Well it's only unacceptable if it doesn't work for them..."

I would say that as of about 7pm last night it stopped working for Key.

"As slippery as a snake in wet grass" might yet come to be seen as an important marker in a sea change in attitude to…

"As slippery as a snake in wet grass" might yet come to be seen as an important marker in a sea change in attitude to National.

Tom: I know I'm never going to convince you on this, but if John Campbell was all that one might think that Corngate interview…

Apart from the one currently in Government of course, but umm...isn't that what Governments are supposed to do? Roll out policies?

That is completely unacceptable. The policy that they seem to happily state is the core of the election and ongoing policy platform and they won't reveal it until then? Absurd, absurd, absurd.

And on Morning Report Key tried to make out that they've had a tax policy for 6 years.…

Conversely Craig, there's a pretty strong response to the question "do you want a tax cut?".

Unless polling companies start conducting face to face interviews with lashings of Sodium thiopental and polygraph machines, response bias is always going to be a factor.

And seriously, would you say "yes" to a…

I suspect they've also learnt a little from last year where they released their student loan policy, and then got absolutely trumped by Labour's policy a few days later.

Well Kyle, Labour has announced its tax policy. There is no reason now why it can't be trumped...is there?

After venturing that "even $70,000 is a modest income these days", it dismissively observes that most of the extra money for education has gone on teachers' pay ("Beside them, the 5 per cent lift in schools' operational funds looks insignificant"). Those rotten…

WFF certainly strikes me as redistribution of capital from the individual to the community; its not classic Marx since it privileges those with families over those without but its still a centrally organized redistribution of wealth. If it ain't socialism (a) what would you call it, and…

I would say that as of about 7pm last night it stopped working for Key.

"As slippery as a snake in wet grass" might yet come to be seen as an important marker in a sea change in attitude to…

My first thought on reading the blog was: is that the Scots "canny" (cagey, shrewd), or the Geordie "canny" (pleasing, fine) that he's using? Quite a different nuance.

At least it wasn't "cannae", which would mean yet another thing, and not a good thing.

That is completely unacceptable. The policy that they seem to happily state is the core of the election and ongoing policy platform and they won't reveal it until then? Absurd, absurd, absurd.

Well it's only unacceptable if it doesn't work for them. I suspect it'll work for them fine. Perhaps…

That is completely unacceptable. The policy that they seem to happily state is the core of the election and ongoing policy platform and they won't reveal it until then? Absurd, absurd, absurd.

Don't say that too loudly around Craig. He calls it "prudent" for National not to release policy yet.…

I see Gordon actually says "cannily constructed" which implies a degree of craftiness.

According to John Key, we may have to wait until only four weeks out from the election for a look at National's tax policy

That is completely unacceptable. The policy that they seem to happily state is the core of the election and ongoing policy platform and they won't reveal…

Labour is trying to win the election by targeting middle income swing voters.

There, fixed it for you.

Danyl, this same statement could be made of almost every party; this is not insight. Surely the issue is how? How will each party try to best benefit the majority of voters?…

Labour is trying to give money to those who need it most without damaging the core infrastructure of health, education and transport

Labour is trying to win the election by targeting middle income swing voters.

There, fixed it for you.

At the other end of the income scale, the tax advantages to those on low and middle incomes has occurred in a climate of ongoing neglect of beneficiaries. Sure the tax threshold changes will help some of…

However, lets start with getting rid of the socialist traversty called Working for Families.

I have a feeling Andrew, that I heard Key inform Ryan just before 10:00 am this morning that this began as a National Party policy.

You may wish to check. *s*

It is easy, of course,…

Except I always think that's one of those questions that's (intentionally or not) framed to elicit precisely that response. Who is going to tell a complete stranger over the phone "kiddies and sick people can go fuck themselves, show me the money!" even if that's what they really think?

Conversely…

Seriously, you do get services for the tax you pay, Andrew, and I suggest that (with five children) you're getting a massively bigger bang for your tax dollar than most other people.

Hear hear.

I don't mind people saying that they don't like Working for Families. I don't mind people…

I think it was 61% of Nzrs who wanted tax cuts but not at the expense of health/education

Except I always think that's one of those questions that's (intentionally or not) framed to elicit precisely that response. Who is going to tell a complete stranger over the phone "kiddies and…

However, lets start with getting rid of the socialist traversty called Working for Families.

Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Lively debate…

Aside from the 'gay mafia' jibe, it urks me when we are supposed to be grateful for someone returning our own money to us! I'm a breeder (5 and finished), and I gladly take Working for Families payments to help out...

Quite right, Andrew!

How much better…

Perhaps then Andrew you would be so kind as to suggest a figure that would be appropriate for the Govt to appropriate from folks income.

Good question and it would make for a lively debate. But I sense it would come back to philosophical leanings. However, lets start with getting…

it urks me when we are supposed to be grateful for someone returning our own money to us!

Perhaps then Andrew you would be so kind as to suggest a figure that would be appropriate for the Govt to appropriate from folks income.

" this will be a hard target to meet, requiring re-prioritisation efforts."

Oh, you mean ""big arse spending cuts**, Doctor Cullen? I don't find bland euphemism any more admirable than strategic ambiguity. And is "unexpected stimulus" code for "infaltionary"; or are we all going to send our way out of…

(for a party allegedly in the clammy grip of the gay mafia, Labour has been very bloody generous to the breeders in the past four years).

This is just the sort of attiude that makes you and I very different people Russell. Aside from the 'gay mafia' jibe, it urks…

According to John Key, we may have to wait until only four weeks out from the election for a look at National's tax policy

Indeed and it seems the media ,at least in part, are begining to tire of his apparent inability to be anything like precise. Campbell said he…