Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: WOTY: The Kindness Scandal

Russell Brown

Mon, 24 Dec 2018 07:49:12 +1300

Closing the thread for Christmas. Kind thoughts all!

Neil

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 22:27:30 +1300

Thats reassuring.

My colleagues do a lot of good in difficult circumstances and we often argue about what is actually the situation.

Neil

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 21:56:18 +1300

So maybe, is it reasonable to say that excluding trans women from say womens prisons under the feminist banner might be a little bit sick?

I would agree with that. I work in a hospital setting where there is from time to time trans women and they are considered as…

FletcherB

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 21:31:01 +1300

And what does that word mean?

FletcherB

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:55:54 +1300

TERFs are not feminists in ether option.

So, if the F in TERF stands for Feminists, and anyone fitting the description of TERF cannot possibly be a feminists, obviously we are all discussing a type of person that doesn't actually exist?

That does not seem logical (or even plausible).

I…

Neil

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:10:10 +1300

TERFs are not feminists in ether option.

I’m not sure how classifying some women feminists as not being feminists is going to protect trans woman from violence – which is carried out by men.

Neil

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:43:25 +1300

Interested to hear how you think other people will respond to what you have said here

I’m not sure I know what you mean. Perhaps my song reference was too obscure.

linger

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:30:53 +1300

(TL;DR it's more important to do it and live it than worry about the label or the definition, eh.)

linger

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:57:00 +1300

Um. I’m sorry if that came off as directed at you personally; I intend it to apply to myself as much as anyone. (For context: I was remembering two much earlier threads I’ve been in, one about advocacy for minorities, and another about the difficulty of measuring “mana").
I agree…

linger

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:30:52 +1300

Yes. I think men self-labelling as "feminist" (thereby also claiming some stake in defining what that is) is on a par with someone claiming to have "mana": while establishing that the label/quality is viewed positively by the claimant, it rather misses the point of what is being described.

Sacha

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:58:54 +1300

There is more than one flavour of feminist. I'd rather not divert this thread into us men talking about that. Let kindness reign.

linger

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:32:32 +1300

Turfs are not feministsThat’s the same argument as “(cis) men can’t ever be true feminists, because of privilege and lack of lived experience”. Which is not entirely valid in all cases (it’s basically the No True Scotsman fallacy, plus it gets really circular when extended to trans individuals — as…

Sacha

Sun, 23 Dec 2018 12:32:07 +1300

Turfs are not feminists, they’re just ignorant people.

That seems over the top to me.

Neil

Sat, 22 Dec 2018 20:05:57 +1300

It could depend on how they self identify and if one thinks sex is binary.

Neil

Sat, 22 Dec 2018 18:36:15 +1300

So what do you call self-described radical feminists who deny that transwomen are women? That’s why the term was coined.

Objections to the term TERF appear partly to be caused by it being used to categorise a range of opinions about gender and biology as essentially anti-trans.

My impression is…

Worik

Sat, 22 Dec 2018 10:47:22 +1300

Turfs ahoy!
I love a good fight!
I know I should stay out of this one.
I just can't!
That's all I've got to say

Moz

Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:50:38 +1300

Sorry, I wasn't arguing against use of the term, I was trying to question that it's being used more negatively than before. From what I know the collapse from "it's just descriptive" to "it's a horrible (but accurate) slur" happened almost as soon as it was first used. There doesn't…

TracyMac

Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:21:06 +1300

So what do you call self-described radical feminists who deny that transwomen are women? That's why the term was coined.

I agree it's not a great term, because there are plenty of radical feminists (which has a very specific meaning I'm not going to get into here) who are not…

Moz

Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:11:36 +1300

'TERF', an acronym whose perceived meaning has become markedly more negative over the course of the year

Please excuse my ignorance here, but I don't recall seeing TERF used to describe non-horrible people (but I am, admittedly, old enough that WBW means "women born women", one of the early examples…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:17:06 +1300

can't get enough of that kindness :) very worthy winner – any year and every year!

Ross Mason

Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:08:40 +1300

So.....TERFs should stay of others turf.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:41:05 +1300

Riding through the Glen…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX7NNMKBPsw

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:36:38 +1300

Surf n TERF
Ignoring words (or even redacting them) doesn't make them go away.
Best we know the extent of their usage to gauge where they may be heading, or leading us
The Pedant Posse rides again –
Damn those 'Dictionaryans',
we'll head 'em off at the parse!

I completely…

Worik

Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:45:24 +1300

Made my day.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:36:36 +1300

Interested to hear how you think other people will respond to what you have said here.

Neil

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:45:26 +1300

In a debate partly about challenging a binary view it’s odd people are being channeled into a binary choice of one side or the other.

Everyone's soaked in animosity.

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:11:12 +1300

I loved your chat with Guyon this morning Russell. Don’t ever stop!

Cheers. It's actually also fun just sitting on the control room couch and seeing and hearing how the sausage is made :-)

Carol Stewart

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:44:29 +1300

I loved your chat with Guyon this morning Russell. Don't ever stop!

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:38:42 +1300

I thought what I did was a gently humorous way of dealing with the bombardment I got last night, but it clearly wasn’t received that way. Sigh. Got that one wrong.

Neil

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:39:32 +1300

I think the expression TERF had become one way of making it about taking sides or of having a side foist upon you.

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:30:57 +1300

By switching it out you've taken one of the sides... and I think you've taken the wrong one.

I've changed it back.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:13:00 +1300

Consider it an act of kindness.
Nah, sounds like that virtue signalling mate. :)

Thomas Beagle

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:12:52 +1300

But TERF was the word, no matter where you were on the issue.

By switching it out you've taken one of the sides... and I think you've taken the wrong one.

Public Address

Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:12:52 +1300

Discussion from blog post.