Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Wikileaks: The Cable Guys

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  • James Bremner,

    The FT article makes the point (that has been made in a number of places) that no evidence of American grand conspiracies has come out of Wikileaks, and infact as RB commented earlier on this thread, for the most part (with a few the exceptions such as the request for credit card numbers et al, which is skuzzy rather than conspiratorial) the cables make the US diplomats look okay, if not quite good. And perhaps bored with nothing better to do if the report on the wedding in Dagestan is any indication.

    For as long as I can remember, and for a good bit before that, the US has been accused or assumed to be up to no good. And now we find out things such as rather than trying to find an excuse to go to war with Iran over its nuke program, the US is the one with the cold feet while a lot of the Middle Eastern countries are urging the US to go ahead and bomb Iran's nuke program ASAP. Quite a turn up for the books.

    That has to be a bit of a downer for those who were heavily invested in the "big bad USA" mantra, whether one calls them the tin foil hat brigade, nuttier than a fruit cake or what other pejorative description seems appropriate at the time.

    NOLA • Since Nov 2006 • 353 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to James Bremner,

    that no evidence of American grand conspiracies has come out of Wikileaks,

    It's a non point / fairly hefty straw man - the idea that most voices on the centre or left, at least anyone I know, has grand conspiracy theories as a starting point is as you say nuttier than a fruit cake. But if that's where you are coming from James, so be it...

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • James Bremner, in reply to Simon Grigg,

    That has to be a bit of a downer for those who were heavily invested in the "big bad USA" mantra

    I didn't write that every voice on the left harbours grand conspiracy theories about the USA, but at the risk of stating the obvious, most of those voices inside or outside the US inherently most suspicious and critical of the USA are of the left. Surely you are not going to dispute that.

    NOLA • Since Nov 2006 • 353 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Hannah, in reply to James Bremner,

    I hesitate to mention this, as I’m bound to be tagged a conspirationist, but I’d think that any decently secret secret conspiracy would have a higher classification level then Secret.

    Until wikileaks releases Cheney’s man sized safe and it turns out it
    holds only a years supply of paper clips and a couple of ‘Extra super secret with secret cheese’ stamps I’m going to assume that there are some conspiracies in the US government.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 228 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    A conspiracy doesn't have to be secret. The Project for the New American Century was one hell of a conspiracy and its mission statement was on the Internet or could be sent to your home if you asked for it.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to James Bremner,

    . . . most of those voices inside or outside the US inherently most suspicious and critical of the USA are of the left.

    As far as that applies to American citizens, it presupposes a single narrowly politically defined USA, rather than the diversity of opinion fostered and guaranteed by the Constitution. Plenty of teabaggers appear to believe that they're victims of some form of conspiracy from within their own ruling "elites".

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to James Bremner,

    Surely you are not going to dispute that.

    Actually I am James. Firstly polling has shown that general distrust of the USA's foreign policies outside the US, has many political starting points, varying from country to country. Some of the harshest critics of the Iraq war came from the right of the political spectrum and could be found in the pages of papers like The Times and from right leaning historians. You don't get the sort of disapproval ratings found across the world by just upsetting the leftists.

    Secondly, I'm not sure that your definition of left and centre would tally with the way the terms are used in the rest of the world. Thus what you may tag as leftist really is perhaps perceived as more centrist once you get beyond your borders and the rabid right that you seem to find comfort with. Many people who, for example, would likely vote Liberal in Australia or National in NZ would hold views that you would tag dangerously leftist. Discomfort with US foreign policy does seem to be widely held. Witness the support for Assange in Australia just this week.

    Thirdly, in much of the world extreme unhappiness with the way the US deals with them and with others polls into the 80s and 90s. Are these all 'lefties' or do they simply not matter in your world?

    The problem with that article was that it built up an argument based on several falsities, one being that there was this guiding concept built around a grand conspiracy, and secondly that there was nothing of import in what has been released to date. Having built these straw men it gloatingly proceeded to knock them down - and then you jumped onto the result.

    And yes, PNAC...

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to James Bremner,

    James, are you okay with the Wikileaks then? Let the public see this stuff, and they can make their own decision on the material, just as you have assessed it in a fairly favourable way for the USA.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    The Devil made me do it

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • James Bremner, in reply to Steve Parks,

    James, are you okay with the Wikileaks then? Let the public see this stuff, and they can make their own decision on the material, just as you have assessed it in a fairly favorable way for the USA.

    Whether Wikileaks is a good thing or a bad thing is an interesting question. The good aspect is that by putting all this information out in the public domain it has debunked some of the negative stereotypes of US intentions and activities held not exclusively, but despite Simon's protestations, most fervently on the left. So in this regard Wikileaks has made the US look better and those that held the negative views of the US look worse and less credible. All good so far.
    The problem, that has been widely discussed in the media and earlier on this thread, is that the disclosures and sense that the US can't keep a secret will make the practice of diplomacy for the US more difficult in the future, which as the US is the world's sole superpower is not a good eventuality. Governments and diplomats do need to have confidential communication on various subjects in order for international diplomacy to work. Of course what needs to be secret and what ought to be public will always be a grey area.
    Additionally the world’s sole superpower having such weak system protections that a very junior figure was able to download seemingly the State Dept’s entire database of cables is not a good look. Imagine what a serious hacker or spy could do. One would hope that the Dept of Defense would have more secure systems, but who knows? Based on Wikileaks one has to assume that China and the USSR and who knows who else have just about any US secret that they want, which is not a good eventuality, in fact that is very dangerous.
    So on balance, Wikileaks is in my view a bad thing.

    NOLA • Since Nov 2006 • 353 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    James, can you clearly define 'the left' please.

    I'd also be very keen to know, in precise terms please, what negative stereotypes have been debunked.

    I'm genuinely curious to know what you mean by both since it now seems you've quietly moved on from your earlier proclamations of claims by some undefined folks of a grand secret conspiracy.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to James Bremner,

    . . . the USSR and who knows who else have just about any US secret that they want

    Why shoot, those goshdarned soviets.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • James Bremner, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Old habits die hard. Rather than typing USSR, I should have typed Russia.

    NOLA • Since Nov 2006 • 353 posts Report Reply

  • James Bremner, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Rather than the now defunct USSR, I meant Russia.

    NOLA • Since Nov 2006 • 353 posts Report Reply

  • Geoff Lealand,

    As in Other Breaking News...had a message late last night from Nick Grant, to say he has departed as editor of Onfilm. That is a loss to informed debate about the NZ screen industry.

    Screen & Media Studies, U… • Since Oct 2007 • 2562 posts Report Reply

  • James Bremner,

    Simon, please refer back the article I linked to and the paragraph that I copied in my original post on this subject. The article and the point it made are all fairly clear and uncomplicated I would have thought.

    NOLA • Since Nov 2006 • 353 posts Report Reply

  • Alex Coleman,

    The FT article makes the point (that has been made in a number of places) that no evidence of American grand conspiracies has come out of Wikileaks, and infact as RB commented earlier on this thread, for the most part (with a few the exceptions such as the request for credit card numbers et al, which is skuzzy rather than conspiratorial) the cables make the US diplomats look okay, if not quite good. And perhaps bored with nothing better to do if the report on the wedding in Dagestan is any indication.

    Ho Hum?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 247 posts Report Reply

  • Alex Coleman,

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 247 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to James Bremner,

    James that really doesn't answer either question. I'll mark you down for a don't know on both which is pretty much what I expected.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Alex Coleman,

    Alex, those links are to that notorious nest of leftard tinfoil-hattery the Guardian. They're still at it with this scurrilous dissing of the politically buffed and toned.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    I'd also be very keen to know, in precise terms please, what negative stereotypes have been debunked.

    +1. Because I've heard this rumour that the next round of wikileaks is going to show that the US military has troops in Iraq and Afghanistan (I can hardly believe it either). As if that wasn't crazy enough, apparently some people in the world aren't too happy about it.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to James Bremner,

    which as the US is the world's sole superpower

    China's shut up shop then? Because around this 'hood they were looking fairly dominant of recent.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to Rich Lock,

    Nope, Rich ...all thoroughly debunked by some dude at the FT. Apparently it was all tied to some flighty theory built around a grand conspiracy - this too.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Does anyone have an explanation of how Waihopai could read Fijian cellphone traffic?

    I can't remember the technical details, but my memory is that the purpose of waihopai is to pick up phone, fax, email traffic that goes via satelite from south pacific nations and NZ. I don't know how fiji's communications work, but I presume some goes via satelite.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I've just borrowed a tinfoil hat from James, but perhaps this is why Julia was so anti the cables coming out......

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

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