Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Why we thought what we thought

BenWilson

Fri, 05 Sept 2014 00:46:11 +1200

I'm not surprised. His explanation makes sense – he shares the ideals but differs in the practical implementation. Differs so much that it's quite important to him, but doesn't show up on the graph. I think that's quite common on the Left – there are, after all, many kinds of…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 05 Sept 2014 00:32:04 +1200

For instance, Randroids would consider supporting the free market to be a form of social liberality (you are free to spend how you like, making moral choices with your money), and thus object to being placed at the authoritarian end of the graph. They could consider themselves to be in…

Steve Parks

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 23:58:13 +1200

Except that would not be an entirely honest answer to the question Key asked. It wouldn’t necessarily be exempt, that depends on the use of the property.

I didn’t know the exact wording wording of Key’s question (hence, my ‘along the lines of’), but now I’ve seen it I still…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 09:55:54 +1200

The trouble with all of those examples you’ve given is that they are effectively one-man bands

Yes, I'm treating both individuals and parties as points. The point would be some kind of point estimate based on the individuals in it. The mean location is a good choice as it marks…

nzlemming

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 09:16:44 +1200

Drop all of them (Key & Cunliffe included) on White Island and see who works with who, and who survives … fully televised!
Has this idea been used Electorally yet?

Love to put in the OIA request on that one!

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 07:49:41 +1200

Lord of the Files...
I’d rather see one show of all the likely ... coalition partners
Drop all of them (Key & Cunliffe included) on White Island and see who works with who, and who survives ... fully televised!
Has this idea been used Electorally yet?
;- )

Sacha

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 07:21:27 +1200

I think part of the problem with the current debates is the candidates being encouraged to shout over each other.

Reflects media framing the election as a one-on-one testosterone fest rather than a nuanced MMP conversation. Compare with the tone of the Campbell Live multi-party dinner or any of Native…

mark taslov

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 06:01:03 +1200

“Of course it would be exempt. Why wouldn’t it be exempt, John?”

Except that would not be an entirely honest answer to the question Key asked. It wouldn’t necessarily be exempt, that depends on the use of the property.

As a seasoned debater in a hostile media environment Cunliffe would…

Steve Parks

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 01:34:48 +1200

I don’t see why the CGT gaffe has become the most important thing in the news today. We have had a two hour debate and the most important thing was that DC didn’t have a rehearsed answer for a question about family trusts and CGT?

It shouldn’t have to have…

Rich Lock

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 20:21:42 +1200

For instance, my distance from Winston Peters is not really a function of the two dimensions we see there. He’s miles away from me in some racist homophobic dimension you can’t see there. Similarly Peter Dunne is a long way from me on account of his main contribution to politics,…

Alfie

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 20:17:00 +1200

Tonight's Campbell Show was a good example... 8 radio mics and a nicely balanced sound mix. It's not brain surgery.

And I reckon your taser idea is brilliant. Let the audience have one each and you'd see a drastic change in behaviour from our pollies. ;-)

Moz

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 19:32:13 +1200

I've worked with soundies who can mix six radio mics ... I think part of the problem with the current debates is the candidates being encouraged to shout over each other.... mute or at least dip the other mics when someone has the floor.

This! No offense to anyone honestly…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 17:31:10 +1200

Shouty John, the Graceless Berk.
Hmmmm... Could be a kids book in this...

CJM

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:48:28 +1200

Interesting to see that the Herald had 'comments' for the 2nd debate open but shut them this morning and have only put up 3 comments. After the overwhelming number of pro-Cunliffe comments last time clearly they feel the need to shut up the rabble at their keyboards confusing things with…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:01:35 +1200

The cacophony of noise experienced last night
There were times when Key’s mic was almost as distorted as his ‘arguments’.
Anyone know who produced it?

BenWilson

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:49:46 +1200

Give me controlled, intelligent debate any time.

Let them eat Internet.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:49:28 +1200

If necessary, mute or at least dip the other mics when someone has the floor.
I think it was actually Key who suggested Tracy Watkins step back a bit, and talk at the microphone – most of the time she talked away from it which didn't help...

Alfie

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:22:57 +1200

I tweeted last night that it showed how hard producing this kind of live video on a limited budget actually is.
Good or poor production — they both require the same setup — the same number of mics, etc. The difference with a good production comes down to having a…

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:00:47 +1200

The production values were bloody aweful through , audio levels all over the place , the intros were far too long and it was very hard for me to hear what Press Editor was saying.

That’s a valid point Richard. We tuned in around 7:35pm and found numerous technical problems.…

David Hood

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 12:51:44 +1200

For Pie graphs, I would rather credit the "colourful" William Playfair

http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/a-visionary-and-a-scoundrel

Alfie

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 12:44:00 +1200

The production values were bloody aweful through , audio levels all over the place , the intros were far too long and it was very hard for me to hear what Press Editor was saying.
That's a valid point Richard. We tuned in around 7:35pm and found numerous technical problems.…

Cecelia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 12:28:48 +1200

What a great poem that you have written
It's like a damn fine piece of knittin'

I knit my brows in some dismay
That Herald folks opined that way

Cecelia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 12:19:02 +1200

The print version has a smallish sidebar "PM lands tax blow" on the front page and a double page spread pages 4 and 5. Banner headline: "Cunliffe's tax stumble brings back memories". There's a story where Cunliffe refutes Key's CGT claim but the dominant feature of the page is a…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:54:19 +1200

Was the one gaffe in the context of the whole debate really worth the prominence it has been given in the Herald this am?
I looked at the online Herald. Almost nothing on the debate- the first two election stories were 'Hacker hits back at Collins' denial' and some 'Nick…

BenWilson

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:28:53 +1200

I don't mean to say that the Political Compass is useless. It's better to use a 50 year old idea than a 225 year old one. But we could use even more modern ones, since the software is there to do it.

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:22:01 +1200

But…. Florence Nightingale invented them…
Well, the Polar Area Diagram to be precise.

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:21:10 +1200

Or was it meant to be a schoolboy debate? Maybe I missed the point?

As I said, I turned it off after five minutes because two adults shouting over each other seemed like a waste of my host's broadband. I know, as they say in Boston, politics isn't beanbag but…

BenWilson

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:16:10 +1200

If I even mention a pie graph online I might be failed out of a statistics major on basic principles.

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:14:19 +1200

You could do that with a Pie graph, although you may have to blow on it first and in Brownlee's case make sure he doesn't take a big bite out of it.
;-)

Cecelia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:12:46 +1200

You've said so well what I wanted to say but ...

Who are the hard-core Nat supporters who gave him a clear win? The Herald people?

Weren't the snarky wit and put-downs more forced and desperate this time?

Was the one gaffe in the context of the whole debate really…

BenWilson

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:08:56 +1200

Well presented as a single number for each candidate you’re comparing with, sorted in order, it’s not that cumbersome. It depends how much analysis you really want to do. It’s not outrageous to aggregate the answers to related questions, I just think that there could easily be more than 2…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:02:46 +1200

I counter with Commandments... 13 of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DktpzYOHTXo

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:00:58 +1200

he had cast himself
Knit one, purl one, cast off into a boiling sea
made treacherous by hidden monsters with needle teeth
that clatter like the hooves of an aran jumper
The cable knit ties that anchor are dropped
And sew to sea Lord Cardigan...

I do like a good…

nzlemming

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:55:15 +1200

To which sin do you refer? Greed, Averace, Guutony, Sloth, wrath?, I could go the full seven but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0NlXKPaqZg

Michael Meyers

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:52:41 +1200

Cunliffe should actually have known his own policy (and one IIRC he developed while finance spokesman before the last election) well enough to zing Key right back

While this is true, I don't see why the CGT gaffe has become the most important thing in the news today. We have…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:49:19 +1200

I see where you are coming from now, a graph depicting something along the lines of relative scores on each question. That, surely, would become quite cumbersome and open to "cheating" yes?.

Cecelia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:48:02 +1200

Ha! Can't think of any knitting puns but Macbeth crying for sleep comes to mind, "sleep that knits the ravelled sleeve of care". Way off topic unless you can think of a link.

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:45:28 +1200

After the last few weeks and the first debate, Key needed a performance that re-energised the base. Hard-core Nat supporters love his snarky wit and put-downs, and they gave Key a clear win. He definitely did what was needed there.
Not so sure it will have worked on swing voters.…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:40:47 +1200

The AC / DC knitting book...
he had cast himself in a silly, schoolboy role which was most unbecoming of a PM.
purls before swine – pt II

[edit: Pull those socks up boy!]

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:37:28 +1200

a clutch of straws...
instead of whining...
Shouting 'Show me the Money!'
or 'Whatever, whatever...'
is way more déclassé.

Cecelia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:21:31 +1200

Not innuendo. I wouldn't be surprised if Key was cracking under the strain of Dirty Politics and the ways it's developing. If he wasn't literally drunk, he had cast himself in a silly, schoolboy role which was most unbecoming of a PM. Last time people said, "Why wasn't John Key…

Richard Aston

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:20:22 +1200

He made David Cunliffe look statesman-like – a major gaffe and unmade points notwithstanding.
Yes I noticed that , Key did the school yard larriken thing and showed us that nasty little side we see in Parliament debates , he seemed obsessed with "beating" labour
and as you said Cecelia…

stephen clover

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:07:33 +1200

National are very happy to tell the public what's wrong with Labour because they have no policy to talk about .

Indeed! One of the most disappointing things about Key was that at one point when asked from the floor for "specifics" of various new policies, he spent his allotted…

stephen clover

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:05:23 +1200

In real time I actually really felt that Cunliffe was trying to answer the OG question from the moderator (or the floor?) and not get sucked into tit-fer-tat with Key. But suddenly he looked like he didn't know the answer.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:03:17 +1200

because I’m damn certain that if the shoe was on the other food Cunliffe would have been finding various polite ways to suggest the Prime Minister harden the fuck up and do his prep instead of whining.

That was how it was in the first debate and Cunliffe did no…

Marcus Turner

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:57:11 +1200

A factor in all this that keeps disappointing me is the role of news organisations. Besides assorted internet news sites, my main source of "audio news" is National Radio. I've been disappointed with how much presenters seem to have been concentrating on who "scored points" in a debate. I presume…

James George

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:56:55 +1200

Incidentally it is looking awfully like granny Herald has spat the dummy, tossed in the towel , thrown her hands in the air & walked off in a hissy fit. There have been weeks and weeks of comment threads jampacked with pissed off kiwis expressing their anger at the obvious corruption…

simon g

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:54:32 +1200

Watch the first part of the debate, Craig. "Incoherent" would be kind.

No, I don't think he was drunk, but if he was stone-cold sober, that's kinda worse.

BenWilson

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:51:31 +1200

unless, that is, you wanted to use time as the fourth dimension

and

plot all the current election and polling data onto the surface of a four-dimensional hypercube

I'm not suggesting anything so exotic. That one would need to is argument enough not to do it that way.

I'm talking…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:45:41 +1200

Cunliffe was on FirstLine this morning, complaining that Key was making stuff up about Labour’s CGT policy and he had to give Key the benefit of the doubt on the night without being able to check.

Obvious response: Cunliffe should actually have known his own policy (and one IIRC he…

Roger Lacey

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:38:13 +1200

The delusions and entitlement are strong in this one….
+1
Michele A’Court nails it today
Does she ever.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:23:23 +1200

The full article is quite funny, in a head-shaking kind of way.
Her upside was she got to campaign in her electorate – wasn't she planning on that prior to this...
The delusions and entitlement are strong in this one....

It is an odd situation when our comedians make more…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:21:46 +1200

I WIN THIS THREAD. WHATEVER.

When can we get a favourite button?

simon g

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:14:31 +1200

Speaking of our leaders displaying dignity:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10451707/Judith-Collins-Cunliffe-is-a-moron

The full article is quite funny, in a head-shaking kind of way.

Warning: may give you a Jilted John earworm (old person music reference ...)

anth

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:10:59 +1200

It included English? Interesting! Anything else you can recall?
That was the only bit that stood out.

The rest of what I remember:
How likely are you to vote?
Which party would you vote for if the election was tomorrow?
How likely are you to vote for a different party?…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:03:02 +1200

Key acts like that kid in your class that disrupted everything all the time, and ultimately marred your education, as they chewed up time and patience…

That's Question Time also. I had oft' thought. If he gets no questions he'd spit the dummy. Would have liked to have seen that…

Cecelia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:02:53 +1200

That was what I thought about the debate in a poetic little nutshell. Key seemed to have morphed into Muldoon. Not drunk, surely? Hyped himself up to win over the audience with his famed sense of humour? He made David Cunliffe look statesman-like – a major gaffe and unmade points…

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:00:57 +1200

Key acts like that kid in your class that disrupted everything all the time, and ultimately marred your education, as they chewed up time and patience…

I've been reliably informed by the National Party that he's talking about policy.

Nora Leggs

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 08:57:28 +1200

in some cases the froth becomes
the ‘head’ of the country…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 08:34:15 +1200

JK was on a roll...
He was quite the 'ham'!

the 'whatevers' were particularly egregious
especially for an alleged 'adult!'

Cunliffe dismissed him at one point
as a 'schoolyard larrikin'
– that was right on the money!

Key acts like that kid in your class that disrupted everything all the…

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 08:28:09 +1200

Saw a bit and unfortunately JK was on a roll and I turned it off

Cunliffe was on FirstLine this morning, complaining that Key was making stuff up about Labour’s CGT policy and he had to give Key the benefit of the doubt on the night without being able to…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 08:18:30 +1200

Did anyone actually watch the thing?

Saw a bit and unfortunately JK was on a roll and I turned it off when as simon g said ....JK: BLAH BLAH BLAH, WHATEVER WHATEVER!
.....DC : We want to help the poor. (Boo groan groan from the front rows in the Audience)

Jack Harrison

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 08:16:16 +1200

At the end of the day Nu Zilders will see there's nothing to see.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 08:14:22 +1200

it reigns, it pours...
...they go into politics,
they rise like scum.
IMHO…
in some cases the froth becomes
the 'head' of the country...

simon g

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 08:04:38 +1200

I WATCHED IT AND I LEARNED HOW TO DEBATE.

I WIN THIS THREAD. WHATEVER.

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 07:53:54 +1200

I’ve been phoned to do a poll by Curia, David Farrar’s company so probably on behalf of National. The question that I found interesting was being asked to give scores to party leaders, with a list of Norman/Peters/Key/Cunliffe/English.

It included English? Interesting! Anything else you can recall?

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 07:43:02 +1200

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think O’Connor would be doing anything illegal if he had leaked Police video evidence to Slater, even if the motivation and morality involved is questionable. It’s certainly not a good look for the cops to be cosying up to a vile blogger…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 07:34:45 +1200

Don’t forget The Press Leaders Debate is
Live on the web tonight from 7pm

Did anyone actually watch the thing? Gave up after five minutes of Key and Cunliffe shouting over each other, which I'm sure was enormously entertaining if you were in the room but somewhat... unenlightening through not-great…

Rich Lock

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 07:29:10 +1200

Are those two axes really important to you?

Well, if you could make sure you plot all the current election and polling data onto the surface of a four-dimensional hypercube in time for all of us to clarify our relative positions and make a properly informed voting decision before the…

Carol Stewart

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 06:48:27 +1200

And just as you can’t really judge how close stars are to each other by their apparent clustering to the naked eye, so you shouldn’t judge how close you are to a political party by how close they look on a flat projection.
That's a brilliant image, Ben. Love it.

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 02:54:22 +1200

And just as you can’t really judge how close stars are to each other by their apparent clustering to the naked eye,
I suppose you could call that the Z axis which in the case of what we are discussing would be the change over time (as distance over astronomical…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 01:45:26 +1200

It would be interesting, since they collect the data, for them to report not just the two aggregated dimensions relative to you, but also the magnitude of your distance in all the dimensions (a single number) to the main parties
Not quite sure where you were going with that but…

BenWilson

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 00:38:53 +1200

I've probably said this more than often enough, but take care about reading a lot into an infographic like that. It's 2 dimensional. Which is better in some ways than 1 dimensional, but it's a whole lot less than the actual dimensions of our political opinions. Are those two axes…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 21:04:46 +1200

I’m a more than a little Catholic on these matters; he who is without sin etc.
To which sin do you refer? Greed, Averace, Guutony, Sloth, wrath?, I could go the full seven but.... National can hardly claim to be worthy of casting a school play let alone stones.

Paul Williams

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 20:46:57 +1200

__Not at all Paul. I made it public on Facebook so fair game for anyone in a sense, although disappointed the PM appeared to bring it up in his press conference – just a little higher profile than I expected! – which is why I did a brief press statement…

anth

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 20:35:39 +1200

I've been phoned to do a poll by Curia, David Farrar's company so probably on behalf of National. The question that I found interesting was being asked to give scores to party leaders, with a list of Norman/Peters/Key/Cunliffe/English.

Ben Austin

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 20:32:18 +1200

The Maori Party need to show some signs of independence I think, if just to remind their voters and potential coalition partners that they are still a force to be reckoned with. If they retain two seats this time around this may give them quite a solid bargaining position, especially…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 20:06:03 +1200

The dominant ideology in today’s US Republicans, by our standards, are a mutant hybrid of Colin Craig and Rodney Hide. And the Democrats, when all its various factions are taken into account, span the spectrum between National and Labour.
Nail meet head. I am hearing from the God botherers of…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 20:04:55 +1200

He’s an animated masterclass in the art of misdirection.

Only because the suckers think it’s all about money so ignore the fact the guy just waffles.
Sound bites and suckers

mark taslov

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:52:20 +1200

he’s sort of making less and less sense?

Is he ever? I’d have quite liked to hear some coherent discussion on the issue, but John Key’s (argumentum ad absurdum) contribution on raising the minimum wage (Press leaders debate 2014 was Taslovian):

“Make it $50! Make it $50!"

He’s an animated…

Steve Parks

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:46:45 +1200

I don’t think Labour does enough lefty stuff to be considered a centre-left party. I guess my impressions are still tainted by Rogernomics.

I don’t know where you fit a capital gains tax, for instance, into that perspective?

A capital gains tax is a completely centrist policy idea. I’m in…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:42:03 +1200

Exactly, although Republicans persist in labelling Democrats as pinko liberalists hell-bent on introducing some radical form of socialism, next stop the gulag for all “right” thinking gun-toting god-fearing citizens.

The dominant ideology in today's US Republicans, by our standards, are a mutant hybrid of Colin Craig and Rodney Hide. And…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:40:02 +1200

although disappointed the PM appeared to bring it up in his press conference – just a little higher profile than I expected!
You get that with juvenile bullies, expose a frailty or weakness, an Achilles heel, they will exploit it like a predator, they will stub a cigarette out in…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:35:32 +1200

The Native Affairs polls — which consistently show that Maori electorate voters would strongly prefer the Maori Party to go with Labour if there is a choice will presumably not be lost on them.

It may take a large slice of humble pie, in the form of electoral oblivion, to…

Rich Lock

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:31:52 +1200

Tussock beat me to posting up The Political Compass. To my mind, it provides a much better way of looking at…

nzlemming

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:28:52 +1200

Hey Russell. Nice interview this morning on Firstline

Kumara Republic

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:27:13 +1200

Was discussing same with a recently elevated QC this morning and he believes that Odgers won't even want to come back to NZ anytime.

She's already done her civic duty by staying out of the country.

I would personally recommend Belfast as a good place to start. Her talents might…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:25:21 +1200

Can we now say you have a dry wit?

:) Plus I'll add seeing as others are, Matthew your life is your business and I have no judgement of that but I have to say I was just deeply disappointed to hear a man with such a voice and opinion…

nzlemming

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:10:48 +1200

Not at all Paul. I made it public on Facebook so fair game for anyone in a sense

Can we now say you have a dry wit?

Joe Wylie

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 19:01:18 +1200

“personal statement from Matthew Hooten”
ahem – Hooton
“personal statement from Matthew Hooton”
in the interests of posterity…

I think my confusion might have arisen from a false memory of an imaginary one-hit wonder.

Russell Brown

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 18:47:52 +1200

Not at all Paul. I made it public on Facebook so fair game for anyone in a sense, although disappointed the PM appeared to bring it up in his press conference – just a little higher profile than I expected! – which is why I did a brief press statement…

Matthew Hooton

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 18:29:18 +1200

mccx

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 18:10:47 +1200

Both National and Labour are center left parties in the world sense and certainly in comparison to anything in the US.
I don’t know how one might make sense of the political orientation of parties globally, but among western democracies I would dispute that National would be to the left…

nzlemming

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 17:51:22 +1200

The Greens seem to already have plenty of evidence-based policy – just not perhaps in the area you want it. They’re constantly smeared by the right as being economically ‘loony’ when they’ve had a coherent policy in that dimension for years now. I doubt adopting rationalist science positions will fix…

Russell Brown

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 17:41:27 +1200

Everyone seems to accept that the Maori Party are firmly tucked into National’s back pocket come hell or high water. Is this a solidly based perception or would continuing revelations unglue them from their colonial masters?

The Native Affairs polls — which consistently show that Maori electorate voters would strongly…

James George

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 17:36:26 +1200

Everyone seems to accept that the Maori Party are firmly tucked into National's back pocket come hell or high water. Is this a solidly based perception or would continuing revelations unglue them from their colonial masters?

Turiana is leaving so there goes the Maori Party share of the Labour/Maori dislike.…

Trevor Nicholls

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 17:31:05 +1200

I think the traditional threat of "we know where yer live" is regarded as unlawyerly

So farewell, Cactus Kate
"Left wing c***s", that was your catchphrase
Now you have left yourself, be careful you don't get caught

Bart Janssen

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:57:27 +1200

kill off ACC and Pharmac

Most New Zealander's have NO IDEA how valuable both of these organisations are. They have combined to make it possible to run a first world health system on a third world budget.

Bart Janssen

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:52:01 +1200

already have plenty of evidence-based policy

Yup I know, that’s why I said strongER.

Whereas for National I would have said get ANY evidence based policy.

But I also think they need to make a thing of it across the board.
eg Raising minimum wage because data from all these…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:47:03 +1200

I think the traditional threat of "we know where yer live" is regarded as unlawyerly, even in Belfast.

Lindsay Vette

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:46:02 +1200

Oh, someone noted our “left” is left of the US, which is true, because the US left is in the same damn place as their right.

Exactly, although Republicans persist in labelling Democrats as pinko liberalists hell-bent on introducing some radical form of socialism, next stop the gulag for all…

tussock

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:27:02 +1200

Is it just me, or is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct?

http://politicalcompass.org/nz2014

That's a long-term international view. It's the doohicky that one news ripped off, and then shifted National to the middle of. It rates the policies they intend…

oga

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:25:05 +1200

Thank you, Bart. I suspect that part of the problem with the New Zealand electorate is that the labels that political parties wear don't quite stick on properly. I always felt that National and Labour were too similar in their policy base. I assumed that they were more right leaning…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:21:37 +1200

It’s a shame people get stuck on that. Like Rogernomics ( although completely different ) really . Douglas and Prebble . They went on to become Act. But Labour wears the badge.
Perhaps Labour could play on that to the right wing.
** "Labour, the party that bought you free…

izogi

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:20:56 +1200

That’s why I really really want The Greens to become much stronger on evidence based policy, it takes away the “fear of loonies” that is “forcing” the reasonable center voters to vote National.

I was dismayed when ACT’s was given Ministerial posts, for similar reasons. In my mind it’s one…

Sacha

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 16:00:49 +1200

Phil Wallington

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 15:53:36 +1200

Hi Nick... As ever, I bow to your legal expertise. Was discussing same with a recently elevated QC this morning and he believes that Odgers won't even want to come back to NZ anytime. I suspect she will slink off to the UK and do a spot of legal hackery,…

Dismal Soyanz

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 15:45:56 +1200

Speaking of things hootin', if Hooton was not embellishing, the PM's absorbing of CERA is amusing. No need to pick up the phone to start an argument then. I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on...

Bart Janssen

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 15:45:46 +1200

the anti Labour/Greens rhetoric

The way I have been hearing it from my relatives is , they HAVE to vote National to avoid The Greens, who have been successfully tarred as wanting to drive us all back to the stone age. The logic is that a vote for Labour is…

izogi

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 15:45:00 +1200

So if a right-leaning voter such at Matthew Hooten were to defect from National, where’s he going to go?

To me this is why it’s not enough just to investigate and prosecute those [allegedly] involved, or to tell everyone to vote them out. Investigating stuff that's already happened won't necessarily…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 15:20:29 +1200

Other right-leaning voters? Some could move to the Conservatives and some to NZ First, but for many it’s National or nothing, which may be why polls haven’t moved drastically.In reality Labour aren't that far to the left of traditional National but the anti Labour/Greens rhetoric of the current government seems…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 15:12:21 +1200

hash tag team wrangle...
Don't forget The Press Leaders Debate is
Live on the web tonight from 7pm

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 14:48:19 +1200

which in reality are looking like being coalition partners, and the Greens might one day be the larger party.

They always have looked like they could work together and I doubt their policies are soo much the same ,it will be perfect because it’s about compromise. The Greens advantage is…

Sacha

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 14:47:51 +1200

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think O’Connor would be doing anything illegal if he had leaked Police video evidence to Slater

O'Connor is the head of the police staff union. He has no more right to share inquiry evidence than you or I do.

BenWilson

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 14:43:21 +1200

Is it just me

It's definitely not just you. Fair enough, I didn't really define the terms Left and Right, but I don't really want to either. Just wanted to say that the problem for National supporters who might actually be disgusted by the recent revelations is that there's just…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 14:37:55 +1200

is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct?

No.

Or more accurately not in world terms. Seriously ACT might just get time of day as right wing in the US but even they would be slammed for some of their policies.…

Alfie

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 14:23:45 +1200

No – this is a very widespread misconception. The conversation is quoted in Hager’s book, on page 46. It’s noted as “Cameron Slater, Facebook messaging to and from Judith Collins, 11 September 2011.”
Except Greg O'Connor's name is redacted in the book and he is only referred to as [a…

Walter Nicholls

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 14:20:03 +1200

we’ve gone from paying down debt and being indebted to the tune of (I haven’t checked exactly) something like 10 billion, to constantly borrowing and owing about 60 billion.

Perhaps someone clever than me can try and put this into perspective. Annual revenue of NZ Government is about $60 billion.…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 14:03:23 +1200

Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct?

Personally I'm odd, because I don't look at left ,right centre. I see Labour as working class, middle of the road so their roots are still intact. I see Greens advertising all over the Ponse and Herne…

nzlemming

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:58:07 +1200

Is it just me, or is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct? I don’t think Labour does enough lefty stuff to be considered a centre-left party. I guess my impressions are still tainted by Rogernomics.

Yeah, Labour lurched across to…

Paul Williams

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:53:05 +1200

I don’t think Labour does enough lefty stuff to be considered a centre-left party. I guess my impressions are still tainted by Rogernomics.

I don't know where you fit a capital gains tax, for instance, into that perspective?

Roger Lacey

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:53:00 +1200

Hooton ahem… oops. Won’t get that one wrong again.

Got to spell it correctly or it won't come up when they search the metadata.

oga

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:47:09 +1200

Is it just me, or is my perception of Labour as being basically a centre-right party that leans to the left correct? I don't think Labour does enough lefty stuff to be considered a centre-left party. I guess my impressions are still tainted by Rogernomics.

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:38:53 +1200

The economy thing annoys me

Peter Lyons at the Harold puts things in perspective.

ETA The comments section suggests some people really don't understand satire or have a sense of humour.

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:34:59 +1200

Oh woops ,guess I didn't care enough. Hoot on

Greg Dawson

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:32:30 +1200

Ah, thankyou for clarifying. Also to nzlemming for telling me its UTC not localised time :)

I’m…

BenWilson

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:30:58 +1200

Although it got me thinking: it feels like there just aren’t enough credible centre-right parties around.

I think the problem is more that there aren't any credible far right parties. So National is actually stuck there, and it's not to their advantage. It's hard to even claim to be center…

nzlemming

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:19:59 +1200

Correct, and the timestamp information is important if you remember that FB stamps everything with UTC which…

bob daktari

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:18:25 +1200

I think people need to say national have done a terrible job of managing the economy – lets not beat about the bush or rely on a natural disaster to make the books look better than they would

Angela Hart

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:11:31 +1200

I'm not saying that National have handled the economy badly but

I can't get over the frequent references to the state Labour left the economy in when we've gone from paying down debt and being indebted to the tune of (I haven't checked exactly) something like 10 billion, to constantly…

Joe Wylie

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:08:21 +1200

The economy thing annoys me. ...
I’m not saying that National have handled the economy badly but it feels like any muppet could’ve take the NZ economy out of recession following global financial crisis.
Hooton et al will quote figures when it suits, but the persistent mantra, whether it's him,…

Michael Meyers

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:03:56 +1200

Hooton ahem... oops. Won't get that one wrong again.

Joe Wylie

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:02:12 +1200

Hooton

Thank you.

Michael Meyers

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:01:57 +1200

The economy thing annoys me. National has claimed credit for all the good things in the past 6 years, blamed all the bad things on the GFC, and conveniently everything before the 2008 election was Labour's fault rather than the GFC. I'm surprised they have got away with that spin.…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 13:00:40 +1200

"personal statement from Matthew Hooten"
ahem – Hooton
"personal statement from Matthew Hooton"
in the interests of posterity...

mccx

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 12:45:39 +1200

Hooten specifically? It's either National or ACT. As he says, his ideological preferences outweigh Dirty Politics and related issues.

Other right-leaning voters? Some could move to the Conservatives and some to NZ First, but for many it's National or nothing, which may be why polls haven't moved drastically.

Joe Wylie

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 12:41:37 +1200

So if a right-leaning voter such at Matthew Hooten were to defect from National, where’s he going to go? He’s not likely to cross the fence to Labour or the Greens, is he?

When Mark Sainsbury asked Hooten why he'd be voting National despite his having just clobbered Michelle Boag…

Michael Meyers

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 12:36:40 +1200

Just read the personal statement from Matthew Hooten.

It reads a bit like an example of Stockholm Syndrome. National and Act have both been naughty but he's voting for them anyway.

Although it got me thinking: it feels like there just aren't enough credible centre-right parties around. If I had…

Russell Brown

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 12:01:18 +1200

Agreed, the fb leaks are a new front unsupported by Hagers book – need someone to tell us whether we can just ignore all the fb ones as forgeries, or if it really is as bad as they make it out.

No – this is a very widespread misconception. The…

James Littlewood*

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 11:55:51 +1200

Thanks to all for good information on this thread.

Has anyone else noticed that as time rolls on, and the back-room players start retreating, leaving front man Key alone and blinking in the lime-light, that he's sort of making less and less sense? (I mean, even less than usual) Phrases…

Dismal Soyanz

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 11:44:09 +1200

Also, the timestamps are a thing – are ministers really able to stay up past midnight chatting all the time and still do their job?

Kinda depends on how you define their "job". (Nobody told me that wasn't part of the job! I utterly refute that! Let's talk about policy...)

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 11:35:46 +1200

Agreed, the fb leaks are a new front unsupported by Hagers book – need someone to tell us whether we can just ignore all the fb ones as forgeries, or if it really is as bad as they make it out.Also, the timestamps are a thing – are ministers really…

Sacha

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 11:25:59 +1200

the fb leaks are a new front unsupported by Hagers book

Are you sure – I thought his book had plenty of Facebook-sourced evidence?

Greg Dawson

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 11:17:03 +1200

Given that Slater and Collins are both outright denying all/any facebook discussions, it is likely to be necessary to use legal channels to check validity/veracity here.

Agreed, the fb leaks are a new front unsupported by Hagers book – need someone to tell us whether we can just ignore all…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 10:50:43 +1200

Whereas Key continues in denial of his own ‘problems
’
"Anyway, what they tell you when you give up drinking is ’you feel better, you sleep better and you have greater clarity of thought . . .So, after three weeks what I tell you is that’s bulls***."

– dry drunks…

Angela Hart

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 10:50:38 +1200

I don’t have any problem with the investigating parties pulling facebook chat records (if they exist, via normal legal channels) to definitively prove whether or not the released chats are forgeries. That doesn’t feel like overreach and privacy violation to me – just normal investigative functions as a response to…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 10:34:58 +1200

- dry drunks can be so bitter!

Akshully, when I think about that, I can't recall, because that's what the people of New Zealand want, they want economy and I refute that,,,,,, hic.

Paul Williams

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 10:29:27 +1200

which explains some of Boag’s comments as well. Who needs enemies..

Indeed. I didn't know this background and the mention up thread seemed a little unnecessary.

Brent Jackson

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 10:21:04 +1200

3: it’s about now presumably that Collins (and hopefully Key) is busily recognising that metadata is actually kinda intrinsically related to the content it describes, and that its collection and use for investigative purposes is actually something to be concerned about

A wry observation

Richard Aston

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 10:02:56 +1200

So, three things: 1. Long time lurker, first time caller: please be gentle.

You fool! Now they know you’re here!

Welcome Teej

Yes welcome Teej and as NZ Lemming said, you are now tagged.
You know that bit when the dictator takes over and they round up the intellectuals to…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 10:02:16 +1200

...his self disclosed alcoholism is what John Key was referring to in the ‘problems Matthew has’ comment.
Whereas Key continues in denial of his own 'problems'
Anyway, what they tell you when you give up drinking is 'you feel better, you sleep better and you have greater clarity of thought…

Richard Aston

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 09:57:16 +1200

I am getting paranoid now . Been reading about spin doctor techniques
This
The most recent email release that lead to the PM sacking Collins as a minister was released by Slater – via Cathy Odgers in league with the PMs dept as a reverse straw man diversionary tactic.…

Sacha

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 09:43:54 +1200

the ‘problems Matthew has’

which explains some of Boag's comments as well. Who needs enemies..

Alfie

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 09:38:15 +1200

The thlot pickens! An interesting little item on stuff reports that the purchaser of Hotchin's monument to self-regard on Paratai Drive is the NZ CEO of Orovida...
Here's the link (on Stuff):
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8981806/Hotchins-mansion-on-brink-of-sale

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 09:12:59 +1200

3 monkeys…
…remember, Peter Dunne resigned his ministerial post last year because he refused to fully cooperate with the inquiry into the leaking…
If it works once try it again, now Dunne
is refusing to read Dirty Politics
What a representative!
Ohariu and environs must be so proud of…

Greg Dawson

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 09:10:39 +1200

Agreed. The idea of extraordinary powers being deployed to identify leakers is not good for democracy.

See I didn't think identifying the leakers was what was being suggested.

I don't have any problem with the investigating parties pulling facebook chat records (if they exist, via normal legal channels) to definitively…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 09:10:09 +1200

PM’s Pinot has been around for a few years, so I don’t think that’s been much of a secret. But the blind trust is evidently only blind in one eye

Why though? PM has mentioned the Pinot often albeit not lately. How blind can the blind trust be if he…

Russell Brown

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 08:54:00 +1200

And as if on cue, Labour has asked the police to investigate various matters.

Russell Brown

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 08:43:34 +1200

__I am ignorant of the law, but I would have thought that if there was anyone with the resources and legal authority to require the logs from the third party in this (Facebook) for a conversation at a known time and date, it would be the Inspector General of the…

Amanda Wreckonwith

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 07:44:10 +1200

'Necessary, reasonable? Public domain?'

Check his twitter feed. It seems that Matthew thinks that his self disclosed alcoholism is what John Key was referring to in the 'problems Matthew has' comment.

Rich Lock

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 03:01:28 +1200

I think I can see a pattern here and it ain’t no fucking butterfly. More like roadkill.

Rorschach's journal, September 1st 2014: Whale carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach.

stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 02:21:31 +1200

Whoever said the rich have no style (was that me just then?? :) ) was spot on, clearly.

Paul Williams

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 02:11:10 +1200

We’ll done Matthew [and stuff]

Necessary, reasonable? Public domain?

Hebe

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 01:16:41 +1200

PM’s Pinot has been around for a few years, so I don’t think that’s been much of a secret. But the blind trust is evidently only blind in one eye.

You are right: didn't look at the date: 101 not achieved. As you were.

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 01:00:39 +1200

In Alan Moore’s graphic novel ‘Watchmen’, one of the vigilantes has the pseudonym ‘Rorschach’.
I think I can see a pattern here and it ain't no fucking butterfly. More like roadkill.

Trevor Nicholls

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 00:09:37 +1200

PM's Pinot has been around for a few years, so I don't think that's been much of a secret. But the blind trust is evidently only blind in one eye.

nzlemming

Tue, 02 Sept 2014 00:08:03 +1200

So, three things: 1. Long time lurker, first time caller: please be gentle.

You fool! Now they know you're here!

Welcome Teej

Hebe

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 23:42:21 +1200

Dunno if I’m just getting over-wrought here – this on Key’s blind trust interests is gobs-smacking. That is, if gobs hadn’t already been repeatedly smacked in the past two weeks.
http://www.3news.co.nz/general/pms-stake-in-otago-vineyard-revealed-2010052617

Geoff Lealand

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 23:02:47 +1200

Welcome

Sacha

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 23:01:35 +1200

The underlying character flaw is millenia old – acting as if the ends always justify the means. Moral grown-ups apply better judgement than that.

Sacha

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 22:57:29 +1200

kia ora.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 22:56:37 +1200

but at least he’s now a sober one. We’ll done Matthew on giving up the booze.

Doesn't change anything tho' nor would I judge him on whether he drinks or not. It's more the crap I think he spouts outta his trap.

Teej

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 22:27:32 +1200

So, three things: 1. Long time lurker, first time caller: please be gentle. 2. The dirty politics revelations have illustrated, I think, a wider malaise/hubris within this government, which is that convention, process, the Cabinet Manual and all those other things that we take for granted to keep NZ politics…

David Hood

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 21:50:55 +1200

...be careful what you wish for...

Actually what I expressly do not wish is that they just ask the NSA because as a communication between two non-US citizens via an American company the NSA will have a copy.

what I would wish is that, if the defence is that it…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 21:50:51 +1200

if it’s been mentioned before
Snap!

SteveH

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 21:30:36 +1200

As we know, ‘Rawshark’ is the pseudonym of the anonymous e-mail leaker.

In Alan Moore’s graphic novel ‘Watchmen’, one of the vigilantes has the pseudonym ‘Rorschach’.

I thought of that too. The wikipeida page for the comic character says "he is introduced as the only remaining active masked vigilante not…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 21:21:14 +1200

I am ignorant of the law, but I would have thought that if there was anyone with the resources and legal authority to require the logs from the third party in this (Facebook) for a conversation at a known time and date, it would be the Inspector General of the…

nzlemming

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 21:21:06 +1200

In Alan Moore’s graphic novel ‘Watchmen’, one of the vigilantes has the pseudonym ‘Rorschach’

Hrrm

Trevor Nicholls

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 21:13:18 +1200

the JK portrait hangs in his boardroom

Not an employee, not an executive, but certainly The Great Benefactor.
Perhaps it was auctioned off for one of NZ's leading "charities"?

Joe Wylie

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 21:11:55 +1200

Hooten shooten What a dickwad.

Hooten. Yeah right. The fan dance on Mandela’s coffin guy.

Geoff Lealand

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 20:59:48 +1200

Minor correction (in the spirit of the times ): the story was on the NZH site and the JK portrait hangs in his boardroom.

Rich Lock

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 20:59:41 +1200

By the way, I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but a very minor nugget of possible interest:

As we know, 'Rawshark' is the pseudonym of the anonymous e-mail leaker.

In Alan Moore's graphic novel 'Watchmen', one of the vigilantes has the pseudonym 'Rorschach'. At one point in the…

Just thinking

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 20:56:02 +1200

Colins isn't the Attorney General, but this ugly business does undermine the fabric of our legal system.

A Constitutional crisis in a country without a constitution or firm rules for appointing Judges.

https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/about/judges/appointments

Geoff Lealand

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 20:53:06 +1200

The thlot pickens! An interesting little item on stuff reports that the purchaser of Hotchin's monument to self-regard on Paratai Drive is the NZ CEO of Orovida, who reputedly has a portrait of John Key hanging in his new abode.

Euan Mason

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 20:47:56 +1200

Any claim that this sentence is a forgery is a forgery.

tussock

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 20:38:27 +1200

I have no recall of being born on Earth. So I presume I was born on Mars unless proven otherwise.

I have no recall of writing that either. So I presume it to be a forgery unless proven otherwise.

Amanda Wreckonwith

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 20:37:49 +1200

I agree he is sometimes a dickwad but at least he's now a sober one.
We'll done Matthew on giving up the booze.
I think you'll find us lefties are more accepting of any personal demons than your chosen leader seems to be.

David Hood

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 19:57:36 +1200

…unless proven otherwise...

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 19:42:08 +1200

Hooten shooten What a dickwad.

Rich Lock

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 19:27:57 +1200

Canon fodder…

Loose Canons? They do appear to be rolling around all over the gundeck of the good ship National, causing all sorts of chaos.

Although 'loose Canons' sounds more like something you might get after eating the bad parts of your Curate's egg.

Sacha

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:57:07 +1200

sustained loss of traction

indeed

Euan Mason

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:52:22 +1200

With everyone else, Palmer, the opposition, even Hooton, calling for a proper wide ranging and independent inquiry, do you think Key can still avoid it? Surely he has to capitulate, which would mean it’ll happen after the election. If not, it shows up some of the issues we have with…

R A Hurley

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:44:00 +1200

I just read the DHC column in the herald suggesting that Cathy Odgers is lovely (and kind of skating over CO sniggering about someone’s potential murder).
It's a doozy, isn't it! She's just a "naughty girl" who indulges in "stirring" when bored! What an adorable little scamp she is, ruining…

Amanda Wreckonwith

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:26:15 +1200

I thought the 'Goss' on Chaston was redacted in the the whaledump documents...
Interesting that Stuff chose to release it.
Lower standards?

Paul Williams

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:22:44 +1200

Indeed. What does it say, though, about Key that a day after he sacks a Minister to get on message, she's back off message?

Alfie

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:09:24 +1200

Good grief! Bernard Hickey became a target for Slater, Odgers and Graham when he was setting up his non-profit journalism site. This quote from Odgers echoes her now familiar tone.
This new website is a vehicle for the left. ... a one stop SuperBlog of whining high-pitched left-wing c calling…

John Farrell

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:09:17 +1200

And boots, and gags, and dog leads...

Paul Williams

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 18:04:21 +1200

Remarkable lack of judgment! Sacked from Cabinet and surely advised to get out of the media, Ms Collins heads to twitter? Does National have whips?

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 17:44:05 +1200

Oh dear
She sounds so sure of herself…
Judith Collins ‏@JudithCollinsMP 22m
@avancenz I have no recall nor any record of any such conversation. So I presume them to be forgeries unless proven otherwise.
…unless proven otherwise
ha ha ha…

simon g

Mon, 01 Sept 2014 17:19:07 +1200

Here's Key's problem:

Collins can be sacked from Cabinet. But not from Twitter.

https://twitter.com/JudithCollinsMP/status/506301025041408000

Oh dear.