Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Who else forgot to get married?

Sam M

Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:51:04 +1200

Wow, 8 pages and not a single advocate for the traditional approach? I'm starting to worry that I may be on the wrong website. All these years as a loyal Public Address reader (and even VERY occasional poster) and it turns out I may better belong over at Kiwiblog? Please…

Yamis

Tue, 23 Jul 2013 01:18:37 +1200

Traditionally Korean women want to find a bloke they can 'tolerate' at worst, or quite like, who will provide for them and their kids.

Times are a changing though. These days there is a massive trend towards either not marrying at all, and not wanting to (being career driven), or…

Konrad Kurta

Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:53:52 +1200

It's interesting to read Bob McCoskries neo-conservatism and these comments through the lens of where I live now (South Korea). My fiance-but-not-really of six years and I are leaving here soon, and marriage is inevitably brought up when we tell anyone that we're leaving. That is, of course, if it…

Sacha

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 11:15:26 +1200

I think it's too dumb for outrage. Mocking, sure

David Chittenden

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:58:36 +1200

Mate, dunno how your sister could get it so wrong.

obviously she’d be Karen Double Brown.

OK, I’ll get me coat etc and so on…

Haha! Excellent

Bart Janssen

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:15:16 +1200

only a small number

hmmm ok more humans stayed in Africa than left Africa at that time. But vastly more humans existing now derive from those that left. So the majority of humans, not just Europeans, have some trace of neanderthalensis.

As for return flow – that's very very difficult…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:55:50 +1200

no(wo)menclature?
...kids with just the one surname sometimes seem to lack adornment.
wanting some kind of 'Mum-bling' perhaps?

Anthony Behrens Esq

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:55:45 +1200

.I used to love watching people's reaction when I described my partner as a builder...no matter how liberal they thought they were, there would always be a slight pause as they assessed my sexuality.

Our biggest problem is that we named our children with double barrelled names, but each one…

Danielle

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 23:08:06 +1200

“Your Awesomeness”: what a greeting!

I think this would be Jeff Spicoli's preferred honorific.

Hebe

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 22:23:07 +1200

What about “The Right Awesome Keri Hulme”, or similar? I mean, if people can be “Right Honorable” and/or “Very Reverend”, I don’t see why we can’t invent other complimentary honorifics.
"Your Awesomeness": what a greeting!

Kumara Republic

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 22:11:40 +1200

But it wasn't really a response – the whole story was generated by them and their mates. The link above doesn't give a byline, but the original Waikato Times story does, and it's this former Maxim communications officer who wrote the original (well, inspired by UK stories) piece.

The sole…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 22:01:55 +1200

You call me/write to me as Keri Hulme I’ll happily respond…otherwise…

What about "The Right Awesome Keri Hulme", or similar? I mean, if people can be "Right Honorable" and/or "Very Reverend", I don't see why we can't invent other complimentary honorifics.

B Jones

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:15:37 +1200

Even if it doesn’t work, it still annoys me that someone’s trying. We’re not about to descend into ethnic separatist civil war, but it still angers me when someone tries to give us a push in that direction. Even if life will mostly continue on peacefully as it has before,…

Emma Hart

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:05:08 +1200

Isn’t a little outrage in order?

Honestly? I think it's too dumb for outrage. Mocking, sure, but outrage? Our society completely accepts children born "out of wedlock". They're not going to make any headway on that. Debate is not, in fact, raging. When I had my son, out of wedlock,…

Nat

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:01:42 +1200

On an individual level, yes. But on a societal level, you do have to note that these choices are made within a particular context, and are part of a larger pattern. I’m all about choosing your choice, but I also think it’s wilfully obtuse to ignore how those choices seem…

B Jones

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:47:38 +1200

Exactly the problem with the local response from Family Fist, Colin Craig et al.

But it wasn't really a response – the whole story was generated by them and their mates. The link above doesn't give a byline, but the original Waikato Times story does, and it's this [[http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/03/25/the-right-has-a-new-media-voice/|former Maxim…

Sacha

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:27:12 +1200

in the USA ... Crazypants!

goes without saying :)

Deborah

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:18:47 +1200

But on a societal level, you do have to note that these choices are made within a particular context, and are part of a larger pattern. I’m all about choosing your choice, but I also think it’s wilfully obtuse to ignore how those choices seem to go overwhelmingly one way.…

Danielle

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:50:24 +1200

I don’t think you could do that if the name in one of your passports did not match the name on your ticket.

I actually have done this several times – I'm not sure why I've never been stopped. (The disadvantage of doing it is that you can get a…

Sacha

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:36:50 +1200

we did choose the names to make good initials

onya

Islander

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:19:46 +1200

V. succinct summation!
Wasnt there remains of a kid discovered a couple of years ago that suggested there had been interbreeding bwtn. H.sap.N & H.sap. sap?

Fascinating slideside-alley/cave: it is possible that there were FOUR different species of h.sap around at the same time...

Anybody else read "The Ugly Little Boy"?

Islander

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:14:04 +1200

s someone who’s written lots to people I don’t know, I’m very much in favour of a general purpose title that doesn’t require you to know much about the recipien

As someone who receives lots of mail-physical & e- may I say I hate titular addresses?

You call me/write to me…

Sacha

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 18:59:29 +1200

I think the community has a legitimate interest in making sure children's family relationships are positive and enduring, but that doesn't mean "marriage" is a proxy for that.

Exactly the problem with the local response from Family Fist, Colin Craig et al.

ChrisW

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:55:45 +1200

I think the vast majority of humanity did not stay in Africa. Vastly more humans left Africa and colonised the rest of the planet than stayed.
Short version – only a small number (?hundreds) of H.s.s. modern humans left Africa, these representing one small part of the much greater numbers…

Brent Jackson

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:22:44 +1200

Emma Hart wrote :
Our kids have my partner’s surname, and my surname as a middle name. Pretty sure that’s not uncommon.

That's what we did. However they got an extra middle name as well, making their official full names rather hard to fit on certain countries' immigration cards. But…

Deborah

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:16:56 +1200

If I have to use a title, I use "Ms", except at work where I use my academic title. Or if some f^%*&! patronises me.

It seems to have orginated as a way of referring to a woman without indicating her marital status: NYT: On language – "Ms". But it's not…

B Jones

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:58:28 +1200

I used to have a workmate who felt that Ms was for divorcees. It seemed a bit of a conservative approach to me, much like wedding invitation rules where a divorced couple is indicated by the ex-wife using her first name, eg Mr John Smith and Mrs Joan Smith, rather…

Sue

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:49:57 +1200

i always like Miss as opposed to Ms, possibly because at my college to be anything other than Ms was letting all women down. 90% of the teachers were Ms, except the head of the science department who was a Miss and she got really shirty when other teachers called…

SteveH

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:44:20 +1200

I have my mother’s birth surname appended to my usual surname on my New Zealand passport. But on my US passport I just have the usual surname. So I have two passports from different countries with slightly different names. I am still working out some way to use this to…

Phil Lyth

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:40:43 +1200

Yeah, this is why I'd prefer to be Person Who Requires No Honorific Because Why Can't My Letter Just Be Addressed To My Full Name?

Reminds me of the late Rod Donald – not even 'Mr' for him, just the nine letters of his name, thank you.

Robyn Gallagher

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:37:10 +1200

I just want to be “person who exists and is an adult autonomous female and apparently requires a title on forms”, which is why Ms works for me.

I also like using Ms. I feel like I'm too _mature_ to use Miss (though Helen Clark was always Miss Helen Clark).…

Nat

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:36:10 +1200

they send all greetings or presents to the family using my supposed married name. YOU WILL NOT WIN THIS ONE, IN-LAWS. I will keep it up until I die if necessary.

Can you return to sender with "addressee unknown"? Seriously, that is bollocks.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:35:34 +1200

vast majority of humanity (H.s.sapiens) and its genome that stayed home in Africa

I think the vast majority of humanity did not stay in Africa. Vastly more humans left Africa and colonised the rest of the planet than stayed. All of Asia, the Americas and Europe were colonised by those…

Tamara

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:31:44 +1200

Absolutely! We use partner. It's nice.

Tamara

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:31:11 +1200

I like Ms, for Danielle's reasons.

As for girls with mother's surnames, boys with fathers's, I am not keen on dividing my family up along gendered lines. It seems counterproductive if you want a feminist, non-patriarchal family. Plus, what if you get children of only one gender? Both mine are…

Nat

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:25:03 +1200

I just want to be “person who exists and is an adult autonomous female and apparently requires a title on forms”, which is why Ms works for me.

Me too! I love Ms.

I also like partner. To me, it connotes equality and working together, rather than the more possessive…

Russell Brown

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:12:42 +1200

JessicaRose, please contact the mothership! You won a prize in the Kitchen hacks thread.

Megan Wegan

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:04:12 +1200

Yeah, same with Madame and Mademoiselle. And I understand WHY Ms came in, totally. I'd just like to believe that we've moved past the point that a single thirty-something year old is a social pariah, and thus needs to hide it.

And so, if you're going to give me a…

Stephen R

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:02:00 +1200

My daughter's partner, paramour, lover, whatever, says I can refer to him as a son-in-law.

Until my brother-in-law got a civil union, we used to refer to his partner as the outlaw...

Stephen R

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:59:07 +1200

I like the Icelandic system. Daughters get as their surname their mother's first name with -dottir on the end. Sons get as their surname the father's first name with -son on the end. So a family with two parents and a child of each sex has four surnames. This shows…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:58:34 +1200

Yeah, this is why I'd prefer to be Person Who Requires No Honorific Because Why Can't My Letter Just Be Addressed To My Full Name?

Miche Campbell

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:57:37 +1200

That's interesting, because Ms came in so that women who didn't think their marital status was anybody else's business would have a marital-status-neutral title they could use.

I like the way the Germans do things in that respect — Fraulein ("Miss") is used until the girl leaves school, at which…

Danielle

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:55:23 +1200

I just want to be "person who exists and is an adult autonomous female and apparently requires a title on forms", which is why Ms works for me.

Megan Wegan

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:53:15 +1200

Yes. But before there was Ms, there was Mrs MarriedWoman and Miss SingleWoman. I'm completely comfortable being Miss SingleWoman. I don't want to be forced into being Ms AmbiguousRelationshipStatus.

Miche Campbell

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:52:06 +1200

If you don't want to then don't, it's okay. It was a suggestion, not an order.

Danielle

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:50:45 +1200

If Mrs meant “grown woman”, not “married woman”, I’d be much happier. But it doesn’t.

Yeah, uh, "Ms" does. That's why it was invented. :)

Danielle

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:48:36 +1200

It's probably a bit late to tell Tom all the things feminism is likely to outlast, but one of them might be "contemptuous dudes telling feminists what feminism is going to do".

I would never change my name in a bazillion years, because it is rad, but I fight a…

wendyf

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:46:33 +1200

We were married in the registry office – 1961 and back then couples tended not to live together without marriage. We wanted a non-religious marriage, but the only place to have that was in the registry office. Which wasn't too bad – my husband worked in the court and his…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:45:00 +1200

But this is the thing. I don't want to. I don't particularly want to be anything, but if I absolutely must use an honorific, I will be Miss, thanks. I hate having Ms forced on me by forms.

Having said that, I'm with Deborah. If Mrs meant "grown woman", not…

Mellopuffy

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:44:54 +1200

My problem was thus. I *did* change my surname to my husbands, in part to make things slightly easier/clearer when shifting to the UK on a spousal visa attached to his British Passport. Hyphenating our two surnames would result in something frankly ridiculous. Rather than issue me with a new…

JessicaRose

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:44:48 +1200

Personally I got sick of waiting for a marriage to come along so that I could change my name and at the ripe age of 31 I changed it myself without the aid of a man. I'm not sure if that's super-feminist, anti-romantic, (or romantic?), or just plain whimsical.

But…

Dave Kelly

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:42:02 +1200

Paul said "you both give your daughters the part of your name you got from your mother and sons the part you got from your father – it in effect creates a matrilineal line for women and a patrilineal line for men."

I like the Icelandic system. Daughters get as…

Miche Campbell

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:38:15 +1200

Bugger that. Use them anyway.

Jolisa

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:35:04 +1200

I think I would be happy with “Mrs” if it carried its original connotation of an adult woman, as “Mr” still does for men, c/f “Master” for a boy.

What if we made people pronounce it "Mistress"? That could be fun.

Morgan Nichol

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:33:37 +1200

I've been a Rev. for about 15 years. And you can be one too thanks to the internet.

Jolisa

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:32:56 +1200

We married for a visa (not even a green card, ow), and then had a really big party later when we were back in NZ. No pomp and ceremony (okay, there may have been an impromptu Best Best Man speech competition at the party, won by our friend Kathryn); no…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:32:30 +1200

Then use Mr or Dr or Rev.

I was for a brief and wonderful interlude, a Dame. Sadly, I'm not actually allowed to claim that one, nor, in fact, Mr, Dr, or Rev.

Miche Campbell

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:25:23 +1200

Then use Mr or Dr or Rev.

Miche Campbell

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:24:26 +1200

High five!

Morgan Nichol

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:41:11 +1200

pointless argument

Especially when you consider our bodies contain 10 times more bacterial cells than human cells. We are not simple organisms.

Ross McA.

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:32:33 +1200

We're not married cos it seems, to me (there's an alternative opinion...), kind of un-necessary and churchy. Been together 18 years and still counting! Our lovely daughter has her mothers surname, cos when she was born there were four generations down the matriarchal line with the same surname. Great grandma;…

ChrisW

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:54:53 +1200

There are no full-blooded humans left either.
It's a pointless argument and not to defend full-blooded whatevers, but I suspect this is a ~Euro-centric view.
Is there any evidence the vast majority of humanity (H.s.sapiens) and its genome that stayed home in Africa had anything to do with H. s.…

Deborah

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:37:45 +1200

All that said, it’s also a non-trivial mark of respect to use the honorific style people express a preference for.

Just so. Except... hmm... what about people in particular religions using titles that also carry a common meaning in our language. I'm thinking here of "Father" for Roman Catholic priests.…

Deborah

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:31:27 +1200

I think I would be happy with "Mrs" if it carried its original connotation of an adult woman, as "Mr" still does for men, c/f "Master" for a boy.

Lilith __

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:50:12 +1200

On the Spanish – unless things have changed recently, or unless the Spanish do something different from the Latin Americans

Yes, Spanish-speaking Latin America does things differently . And yes, I know the Spanish don't literally hyphenate, but they do the equivalent.

Wikipedia also tells me that Arab women keep…

Lilith __

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:44:15 +1200

genetic evidence shows they did interbreed

Randy buggers! Not like us. :-)

Megan Wegan

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:38:30 +1200

What annoys my partner is that things like airlines demand titles, and she a) hates being called “Mrs” and b) dislikes being called “Miss” or “Ms”. Thus far it has not been enough motivation for her to chase a doctorate…

I am not a Mrs, and I hate being called…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:04:41 +1200

There are no full-blooded humans left either. Interesting how stupid the statement is that way round.

I wonder whether H. sapiens sapiens and H.sapiens neanderthalensis had to deal with this shit too while they were busy blending their genomes (yes genetic evidence shows they did interbreed).

kalypso

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:01:33 +1200

a) hates being called “Mrs” and b) dislikes being called “Miss” or “Ms”.
That is pretty much the only downside I have found for keeping my name. Well that and enduring the general incredulity that I didn't change my rather amusing (to some) surname when I had the chance. My…

Stephen R

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:29:00 +1200

When my partner and I got married, it was never seriously considered that either of us would change our names (by anyone except for her mother, who seemed to expect it).

Our paranoia is such that the only time we really care is when travelling overseas, when we always take…

Nat

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:00:25 +1200

And this is the bit I don’t get. Your family tree is a genetic legacy not a tree of names. It doesn’t matter what you are called you are still genetically related to your ancestors and decendants regardless of what they call each other. Theoretically my family name ends with…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:58:09 +1200

On the Spanish – unless things have changed recently, or unless the Spanish do something different from the Latin Americans, the common practice is not for women to retain their birth name when they marry, but to keep the first of their two surnames, and add “de” (of) + [first…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:46:20 +1200

Yup, that was crystal clear but boy that's two words and a hyphen that make me twitch. :)

B Jones

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:26:52 +1200

Hopefully it was clear by the context that I too consider it a noxious racist bullshit trope, repeated only for the purpose of illustrating that where data is absent, people's bullshit fills the gaps. Not that I think there's any point collecting racial purity data, but I so wish there…

Raymond A Francis

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:25:45 +1200

Quite common in some cultures to take your mother’s surname, well that is what happens in the Azores and explains why why my surname is Francis (G-g-grandma’s surname ) rather than De Sonza
So
Emmanuel De Sonza– changed to when he left home to Francis
Malcolm Francis–
Couple of generations…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:49:04 +1200

no full-blooded Maori left

And that’s one noxious racist bullshit trope I don’t need to hear from anyone – Maori or Pakeha, left, right or whatever – ever again. Sorry for the derail.

I seem to remember characters in Jane Austen books who were sort of openly adopted into a…

B Jones

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:44:52 +1200

It did used to matter for property inheritance – "illegitimate" children couldn't inherit. Back in the day, surnames were a lot more flexible too. I seem to remember characters in Jane Austen books who were sort of openly adopted into a rich but childless sponsor's family, and took on the…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:43:07 +1200

see this is why I was advocating the passing of doubled barreled surnames to create both a matrilineal line and a patrilineal one – it both solves the problem of hyphenated surnames getting longer at every generation and the inherent sexism of just passing down the male surname.

To recap:…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:18:16 +1200

the family tree

And this is the bit I don’t get. Your family tree is a genetic legacy not a tree of names. It doesn’t matter what you are called you are still genetically related to your ancestors and decendants regardless of what they call each other. Theoretically my family…

Isabel Hitchings

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:14:05 +1200

We thought hard before hyphenating our kids names but it really was the only thing that made sense at the time. At that stage neither partner, nor I, wished to change our own surnames but it was important that the kids names connected them to both parents without privileging one…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:02:35 +1200

I’d say it is past time to repeal the bit of the regulation (3A(c)vi) which requires that registration of a birth includes

That one caused a bit of fun in our house. We’re just yesterday at the point of three years of cohabitation, which is one of the milestones to…

Amy Gale

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 08:31:25 +1200

In my case, like so many others, referring to my name as my father's name also manages to completely erase the fact that it's ALSO MY MOTHER'S NAME. Whoops shouty.

B Jones

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 08:13:04 +1200

Amy: I’d really like to see this meme go away.

Amen. I've only ever heard it from conservative blokes; it strikes me as an attempt to convince a strawfeminist.

Phil: If the info is not collected it cannot be reported.

No. Nonononono. The problem is that the data is too…

Phil Lyth

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 07:49:00 +1200

I'd say it is past time to repeal the bit of the regulation (3A(c)vi) which requires that registration of a birth includes
information about the type of relationship (if any) between the parents at the time of the child's birth

If the info is not collected it cannot be reported.

Nat

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 07:46:54 +1200

Or a hitched warlock

wearing a chastity belt

Nat

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 07:45:20 +1200

Awesome. Because I have male friends called Nat, I had assumed you, also, were male. Hello!

Hello! I'm not sure too much of what I write on here depends on whether I'm male or female. Hope not anyway.

Nat(alie)

p.s. Deborah, I really hate being addressed as "Mrs" too. Not…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 07:41:26 +1200

Every now and then someone rings up and asks for Mr Russell, or Mrs Wright. Whatever. I get a bit uptight if people persist in using calling me Mrs Wright: I *hate* being addressed with “Mrs”.

Yikes…. Hell, I’ll admit it’s pretty deep in my etiquette basecode not to be…

Amy Gale

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 02:20:32 +1200

Of course, it’s merely trading one man’s last name (their father’s) for another.

I’d really like to see this meme go away. My birth name is mine exactly as much as my father’s is his, and for exactly the same reasons.

Yamis

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 00:52:47 +1200

Our kids have my partner's surname, and my surname as a middle name. Pretty sure that's not uncommon.

From my personal observations it'd be very uncommon. But I couldn't give a you know what. People can call themselves what they like, just don't call me late for dinner. Thanks mum.…

Sacha

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 23:11:44 +1200

Or a hitched warlock

Lilith __

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:10:52 +1200

the word ‘wedlock’ on the telly news seemed archaic

Sounds like a chastity belt, or some such.

Stephen Judd

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:52:57 +1200

How heteronormative of you. :-)

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:48:00 +1200

We’re not married, and we gave one of our kids my surname and the other one his.

Awesome. Because I have male friends called Nat, I had assumed you, also, were male. Hello!

Sacha

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:28:47 +1200

the word 'wedlock' on the telly news seemed archaic

Nat

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:26:35 +1200

but she’s also concerned about either of us having issues being accepted as the parent of a child without having the same name. I wouldn’t know if this is actually a significant issue these days or not.

This is so not an issue. You have a passport, the kid has…

Emma Hart

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:14:32 +1200

Our local school is middle class, decile 10 and so forth, and there are hardly any kids with double-barrel names. I’d love to know where all those other families are!

Our kids have my partner's surname, and my surname as a middle name. Pretty sure that's not uncommon.

Ana Simkiss

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 21:07:49 +1200

Cheerfully unmarried, no kids here. Perhaps because I am (ahem) mature and also on speaking terms with all waves of feminism to date there is no way I'd consider changing my name. Also, none of the male cousins have passed on the family name so it's dying unless I can…

Tamara

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:56:55 +1200

We're not married and haven't changed our surnames. Our children have our surnames double barreled. Our local school is middle class, decile 10 and so forth, and there are hardly any kids with double-barrel names. I'd love to know where all those other families are!

Deborah

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:29:25 +1200

Yeah. And I didn't even have problems travelling internationally with the girls, but without their father. Really, no one gave a damn about the different names we use, including immigration clerks.

Miche Campbell

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:14:13 +1200

There are three people in this household — my husband, our daughter, and myself. We all have different surnames. Nobody's batted an eyelid.

B Jones

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:44:42 +1200

Looks like the original story is part of an international trend. Of media coverage, that is.

Deborah

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:31:21 +1200

but she’s also concerned about either of us having issues being accepted as the parent of a child without having the same name

I've never had a problem with this at all. All my girls have their father's family name rather than my family name.

It never occurred to me…

izogi

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:19:17 +1200

I don't understand this. That doesn't mean I condemn it, or that in the least I think women shouldn't be doing it, I just don't understand it.

I don't get it either. I grew up with a mother who repeatedly told me how much she regretted changing her name when…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:15:46 +1200

Best example of which I am aware: the Gracewood family. Grace + Wood x Deed Poll.

Or you could go the Torchwood route: Pull out the Scrabble tiles and see if you can come up with a funky anagram of your surnames.

Miche Campbell

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 18:04:47 +1200

I do know a young man who changed his name to match his wife's when he got married.

After the initial "Oh? Okay," it's been no hassle at all.

Barnaby Nicholls

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:56:47 +1200

The surname point is interesting – I, too, see no point in one taking the name of the other. I know of several people who took a less mainstream route and chose a new name together – it would make genealogies complicated (although they're historically bloody patriarchal), but it's much…

Morgan Nichol

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:29:51 +1200

Of course as a man it is never expected that I change my name and in our case it would have been silly to have either of us mess up our publication record by changing names.

I've always figured that I'll take the opportunity to change my name to my…

Sacha

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:21:24 +1200

Bar owner seems more likely :)

Morgan Nichol

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:11:27 +1200

I've always thought if Dave Dobbyn married me, I'd never take his surname.

Ok, but from now on I'm going to refer to you as if you did.

Raymond A Francis

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:07:56 +1200

Three sons, two daughter-in laws

I asked the French one if she was going to take our family name, glad to she said ( I have always thought of her as my daughter anyway) but interestingly in France as a woman your legal name is the one you are born…

Lilith __

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:57:12 +1200

I’m sure I’ve said this before in this forum, but the Spanish system has much to recommend it. Couples don’t share a name, children are hyphenated until such time as they pick which one they want to go with.

Some friends of mine thought up another solution: an invented middle-name…

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:49:31 +1200

I think the most sensible solution for double-barrelled breeding with double-barrelled is to combine half of each parent’s name in the most aesthetically pleasing combination.

Best example of which I am aware: the Gracewood family. Grace + Wood x Deed Poll.

Miche Campbell

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:35:03 +1200

See, it's not "trading one man's name for another" though.

I was 29 when I got married. I'd had my surname for all of that time. After 29 years it was my name, not my father's (thank goodness).

And for the record it's still my name.

Aidan

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:34:12 +1200

War Boner.

Who wouldn't be tempted ...

Carol Stewart

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:24:34 +1200

Plummer-Butt (!)
As opposed to the more aristocratic Butt-Plummer?

Bart Janssen

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:21:56 +1200

Our first-born is Jimmy Rae Brown

Except for the expectation that he will be a blues guitarist.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:14:43 +1200

I don’t recall a single one I’ve attended which included ...

Neither have I, but I strongly suspect, actually I'm damned certain, that my sample is biased. I just don't get invited to standard relious wedding because none of my friends are that way inclined.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:14:14 +1200

I have heard of Plummer + Butt -> Plummer-Butt (!)

At least it was Butt rather than Crack.

Richard Grevers

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:04:35 +1200

We got married after several years, but my wife didn't want to change her name yet again (second marriage) so uses her maiden name. Even though I signed school enrolment forms with my own name I started getting mail addressed to Richard White.

We have friends who decided to use…

Lilith __

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:01:09 +1200

using their maiden names at work

"Birth names" is probably a less archaic term.

Sacha

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:50:00 +1200

almost never do you hear of a couple creating a new surname of their own (which I kind of think would be cool)

It was

Gareth Swain

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:45:12 +1200

Professionally, sure. It's very common for people to continue using their maiden names at work, as you say.

linger

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:40:57 +1200

The current situation in Japan is a little more flexible than that. Bride and groom do have to be put on the same family register — which means that for at least some (local government) purposes they are filed under a common family name — but women can and often…

Ewan Morris

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:08:21 +1200

When my partner and I got married we both agreed on a new surname – not a blending of our old names, a new name altogether. One useful consequence is that my old name now functions as a quasi-pseudonym for purposes such as commenting on Public Address...

Yamis

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:50:41 +1200

We considered this. But that would have made the children's surname "Dearhart", and I am not that much of a sadist

Rad Heart ?
The Radar?
Hard Tear?

I'm supposed to be insulating under the house... procrastination ...

Lilith __

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:48:31 +1200

I know a couple who kept their own names and blended them for their children’s surnames. Great idea .

We considered this. But that would have made the children’s surname “Dearhart”, and I am not that much of a sadist.

How Pratchettian!

Emma Hart

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:45:52 +1200

I know a couple who kept their own names and blended them for their children’s surnames. Great idea .

We considered this. But that would have made the children's surname "Dearhart", and I am not that much of a sadist.

Yamis

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:45:26 +1200

I know a couple who kept their own names and blended them for their children's surnames. Great idea .

Snap, what I was typing (typed) up.

Yamis

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:44:38 +1200

Internet ate my first post. Must be a kind of in built intelligence filter.

Why not merge surnames?

Brown + Jones = they both adopt Brones

Brones then marries Carter to become Cabrones.

Williams marries Nonu to become Wino.
McCaw marries Weepu to become Mcpu.

Even better punch both names…

Lilith __

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:44:17 +1200

I think there’s some value in a couple publicly declaring their intentions; but I see no reason why people should have to get married for the relationship to be taken seriously.

My parents were living in a committed relationship and raising children together for many years before they were able…

Hebe

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:40:13 +1200

I know a couple who kept their own names and blended them for their children's surnames. Great idea .

Emma Hart

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:38:20 +1200

Surely it’s just a choice. It may just appeal to some folks to bind their names with their beloved in the same way they have bound their lives.

Oh, I understand individual reasons for making that decision. I can totally see why, for instance, someone else who had the kind…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:28:17 +1200

almost never do you hear of a couple creating a new surname of their own (which I kind of think would be cool).

A couple of my acquaintance went from being Burch (his) and Hall (hers) to being Burchall. You're right, it is cool. They were fortunate that their names…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:16:52 +1200

I don't understand this.

Surely it's just a choice. It may just appeal to some folks to bind their names with their beloved in the same way they have bound their lives. What is odd is that it is almost always only one way and almost never do you hear…

Hebe

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:15:36 +1200

We didn’t have time to get married this time before the 31-week twins, and have never found the time since. Maybe one day, maybe not.

We decided to use their father’s surname for the twins to help their older brother (son of father and his second wife) blend into a…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:58:29 +1200

When I was married, my then wife kept her maiden name. Our daughter has her mother's surname as her middle name. Everyone seems happy with this arrangement.

In Latin America as I understand it women keep their surnames on marriage, and a child of Jose Sanchez Ferreira and Maria Martinez…

Josh Addison

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:55:33 +1200

A friend called Eleanor used to go out with a guy whose last name was Rigby – it didn't last long, so no chance of marriage, more's the pity.

Frankly, I think the hyphenation issue hsan't been a point of interest since the 80s – after the onscreen relationship between…

Craig Young

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:48:20 +1200

Could I object to this association of Bob McCoskrie with clowns? Clowns can be scary. However, McCoskrie is about as terrifying as a wet dishcloth and less politically effective than one...

Thomas Beagle

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:47:05 +1200

For people who get pissy, the best response is to use "that guy you're shagging".

Gareth Swain

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:38:05 +1200

For trivia's sake...

Here in Japan, the law says that when a couple gets married, they must assume either his or her surname. It can be either, but one of the couple ends up having to change their name (in practise, this invariably means the wife; it is extremely rare…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:36:59 +1200

On the topic of surnames, a colleague got married a month ago. She's kept her own surname, but now goes by Mrs. As an American, she didn't get the humour associated with being Mrs Slocum.

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:36:42 +1200

But personally I can’t stand the double-barelling of the kids names… just choose one and be done with it! :)

I think we were very lucky in that we have two names that sound really cool together. Our first-born is Jimmy Rae Brown.

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:33:30 +1200

Totally yes and mysterious to me. I’m Dr S, my wife is Dr M… but quite often I’m Mr S to some bloke on the phone who has dealt with my wife first. You just roll with it.

Yes! Although I find it's quite a good one for filtering cold-callers.…

Peter Darlington

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:10:15 +1200

I'm pretty sure 20 something years ago when we last discussed this option, punk rock forbade us from getting involved in any such ceremonies sanctioned by The Man. The young 'uns in my office seem to love it though, and in 2013 all power to them. Do whatcha wanna, as…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:06:56 +1200

The other stat not mentioned is the divorce rate among those who do get married.

Nobody knows what it is. Not a single person. Figuring it out would require a complete database of marriages and divorces all the way back to the year dot for whichever jurisdiction was trying to…

Aidan

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:01:41 +1200

The only real issue is what we call each other: “partner” can be an ambiguous word. Sometimes it is easier to acquiesce to the use of the word “wife” when dealing with tradespeople or call centres. I don’t really mind doing that. It’s less bother than correcting people.

Reclaim your…

B Jones

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:41:23 +1200

What are the divorce rates for couples who have had children together vs the separation rates for unmarried couples who have had children together?

I think there are subgroups within the latter that would be hard to disaggregate, eg long term relationships where children have been planned as well as…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:28:18 +1200

Yeah, the beloved and I have been notionally engaged for about 7 years now. But weddings are expensive and the law means her property rights are protected now, and it's all bit hard so... meh.

Yamis

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:26:55 +1200

What are the divorce rates for couples who have had children together vs the separation rates for unmarried couples who have had children together?

Are there even stats collected on the later? Too many variables I guess.

Mahal

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:19:29 +1200

I managed to offend my boss a few years by mentioning her husband, rather than her partner. They've chosen not to marry, and she told me this quite firmly. I haven't made that mistake since.

My social circle contains a bunch of different arrangements, from the long-term partnership where they…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:12:33 +1200

For teachers especially. What happens when your grand children get married and their full name is Chester Lowe-Smith-Higgins-Carter-Jones-Samuels-Matoto-Yin ???

Well, there's a number of options – mostly under the broad heading of "common social usage and legal formality amicably parted ways".If the Duchess of Cambridge ever gets around to dropping…

Shaun Lott

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:12:20 +1200

Persoanlly, I feel that the technicality of marriage/civil union/whatever is viewed with much less importance than the stability of the couple, especially with the children in mind. In my peer group of couples with kids, some are married and some are not, and actually I have a hard time recalling…

B Jones

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:07:37 +1200

But the stats seem to support my view that people are reverting to more traditional aspects of the marriage ceremony.

I'd love to see them. Because the last 150 years of history points to a steady retreat from the traditional position that marriage was the transfer of the legal responsibility…

The Ruminator

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:04:01 +1200

When my (now) wife and I got engaged, we talked about the surname thing. For some family reasons she was keen to shed hers but also we just felt it was cool to be a collective unit so there'd be one name. Given the obvious awesomeness of my surname (inator)…

Tom Semmens

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:55:42 +1200

The concept of marriage has changed radically in the last hundred and fifty years and is still changing.

All about anecdotal sample groups, I suppose. But the stats seem to support my view that people are reverting to more traditional aspects of the marriage ceremony. Double-barrelling is regarded as rather…

B Jones

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:48:13 +1200

And so it is the same for taking your husband’s name. It is a deeply held tradition in a ceremony that has proven to be largely resistant to change for five hundred years.

The concept of marriage has changed radically in the last hundred and fifty years and is still…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:41:21 +1200

There is (of course) more than one dashboard. The other stat not mentioned is the divorce rate among those who do get married.

And those calling for divorce to be restricted are utterly missing the point. Divorce can be hard on kids, but it’s by far the lesser of 2…

Will de Cleene

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:39:16 +1200

As a flatmate commented many years ago when I asked whether she intended to get married, "It would be rude to get married before my parents did."

Tom Semmens

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:38:07 +1200

Hmmm, a funny old one this taking your husbands name business.

Most of the women I know seem to regard keeping their own name as a bit naff and all together more trouble than it is worth, a remarkable turnaround in views from just twenty years ago. It is now…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:29:02 +1200

I think McCoskrie wants to back to the days of my youth when people were tarred with the label "bastard", written on their birth certificates, that was snickered about, and that they could never escape

Normalising being a bastard has been a good thing the stigma has gone, for most…

linger

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:28:35 +1200

Bob McCoskrie’s dashboard [...] in a clown carWhich also implies that the red light he sees is in fact attached to his nose with elastic.

Robyn Gallagher

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:28:16 +1200

For teachers especially. What happens when your grand children get married and their full name is Chester Lowe-Smith-Higgins-Carter-Jones-Samuels-Matoto-Yin ???

Double-barrelling is a luxury for the first generation. After that it gets complicated, especially when the surnames are multi-syllabic. I've always been interested in how couples deal with this. Will double-barrelled…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:24:56 +1200

There is (of course) more than one dashboard. The other stat not mentioned is the divorce rate among those who do get married.

To thrash that idiom to death, the scariest thing about Bob McCoskrie's dashboard is you're in a clown car heading nowhere any rational person wants to go.…

Alan Perrott

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:23:24 +1200

Mate, dunno how your sister could get it so wrong.

obviously she'd be Karen Double Brown.

OK, I'll get me coat etc and so on...

B Jones

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:09:36 +1200

Nicely observed.

Comes from having grown up with parents who weren't married (well, they were originally, but not to each other), and having them separate just like about half of my friends with married parents. Thirty years ago.

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:07:09 +1200

The metric is no longer a good indicator of family instability, and arguably it hasn’t been in years.

Nicely observed.

B Jones

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:02:42 +1200

Amongst my friends and acquaintances with children, there's every possible formal expression of relationship, from civil union to cohabiting but unmarried, to married young, to married after the kids were born, to divorced and remarried. Many of their kids would be captured within the "unmarried" group, but only a tiny…

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:02:00 +1200

I got engaged to my partner of sixteen years (and father of our two children) on Thursday.

Warmest congratulations!

Nat

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:55:46 +1200

and also frankly bemused by the spectacle of women adopting their husband’s surname (is this practice staging a comeback?).

Me too, and yes I think it is

From http://www.livescience.com/16813-women-husband.html:

Surname decisions are now a free choice, but statistics suggest that most couples still take the traditional road. A 2009 study…

Isabel Hitchings

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:54:24 +1200

I got engaged to my partner of sixteen years (and father of our two children) on Thursday.

When we first got together there were a heap of practical reasons not to get married so we just didn’t bother. I did get a fair few comments questioning our commitment and there…

Yamis

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:51:33 +1200

Russell, I think you need to look at the major crisis you are creating here.

For teachers especially. What happens when your grand children get married and their full name is Chester Lowe-Smith-Higgins-Carter-Jones-Samuels-Matoto-Yin ???

The relief teacher will take the whole bloody lesson to take the role!

Does show the…

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:44:36 +1200

The following occurred to me and has been added to the post:

The only real issue is what we call each other: "partner" can be an ambiguous word. Sometimes it is easier to acquiesce to the use of the word "wife" when dealing with tradespeople or call centres. I don't…

Russell Brown

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:40:22 +1200

When my sister (Karen Brown) got married to her lovely Aussie bloke (Greg Brown), she went around telling people she was going to insist on being Mrs Karen Brown-Brown, so it was clear she wasn't taking her new husband's surname. She didn't, of course, but it was an excellent joke.

B Jones

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:37:55 +1200

At least now it must be a conscious decision, and not something that’s just “what you do”.

I don't know about that. There's been a sudden outbreak of women who "just don't like their surname", totally independently of any wider societal factors, they swear.

From Richard: Of course, it’s merely…

Jason Kemp

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:37:01 +1200

There is (of course) more than one dashboard. The other stat not mentioned is the divorce rate among those who do get married.

Looking around at my peers the children whose parents didn't get married or have divorced often get more attention then they might in the more conventional setup.…

Richard Wain

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:30:47 +1200

also frankly bemused by the spectacle of women adopting their husband’s surname

I don't understand this.

Me too. Where I work, in female-dominated newsrooms, it seems that every single woman who gets married takes their husband's surname.

Of course, it's merely trading one man's last name (their father's) for another.…

Emma Hart

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:27:12 +1200

I got married, and then had a child. Not with the guy I was technically still married to, of course, but nevertheless I did everything in the right order.

also frankly bemused by the spectacle of women adopting their husband’s surname

I don't understand this. That doesn't mean I condemn…

Public Address

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:27:11 +1200

Discussion from blog post.