The examples you use are all quite active destruction and harm. Please stop describing it in ways that leave govt's hands looking clean.

Having read the relevant sections of the Royal Commission's report, it's quite interesting to look back at this. I had assumed, very wrongly, that there was a proper CIMS structure in place. There wasn't. In fact,…

But I hope a few New Zealanders take a long hard look at their own conduct too. What on earth made many people, whose only experience with coal mines was driving past one, assume that they knew more than guys…

Especially the line about knowing his place.

Is there sumwhr on the interweb I can goes 2 lurn teh nu social order?

Hey, it's not my fault if I'm ignorant, unwilling to get informed but still eager to make my opinion known and drive traffic to my blog.

You must be "grandstanding" to point that one out. :)

you aren't seriously suggesting that the news media is a means of education?

Education is failure – just ask that Mike Hosking chap.

You know what else gets on my tits? Public libraries.

Oh man, do not get me started on that one again…

So what he’s saying is that Knowles didn’t spend enough time justifying to the baying hounds of the collected meedja why he wasn’t sending men to what’s turned out…

So what he's saying is that Knowles didn't spend enough time justifying to the baying hounds of the collected meedja why he wasn't sending men to what's turned out to be almost-certain death. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Hey, it's not my fault if I'm ignorant, unwilling to get informed but still eager to…

Apart from the initial CIMS/Rescue 101 stuff, it is not Knowles job to ensure that everyone keeps up. I've not spent time trawling through…

I’m reminded of The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which perhaps expresses how one might feel too. To this day, you do not make jokes about the tragedy in the Great Lakes region, as many a would-be comedian has found. Another parallel is the destruction of the submarine Kursk.

Comedians…

Some useful stuff in the comments

..like this from Edwards himself:

Curiously enough, I was speaking today to a member of the Waihi Mine Rescue Team whose view was that the communication to the public by the police had been poor at best. It took him two minutes to explain…

denying Edwards the oxygen of publicity

Some useful stuff in the comments.

the preliminary talk seems pretty solid to me

Not quite prelimiinary. Key initially said a royal commission wouldn't be needed but polling since no doubt said otherwise. Now it's his idea. Good politics..

More details on Royal Commission proposal. I'm a known Key apologist, but the preliminary talk seems pretty solid to me:

[Key] will take a proposal to Cabinet today for an inquiry into the disaster.…

The editorial was generous to the Australian reporters (including skipping over the "country cop" comment) and saying that the 9/11 comparison was…

found that it is routine for TV camera’s to be invited into funeral parlours

Yamis, do you think this development could be largely due to the fact that the Korean economy is dominated by the three major companies Hyundai, LG and Samsung, the latter two being major international producers of…

ETA; Which then raises the issue of how fast was it collecting methane to create this kind of pressure? I doubt that it would have been temporarily stored within the mine – that would be crazy

If there was only one line draining methane to the outside, but collecting it…

In addition there is every likelihood that any inquiry which goes further in it’s findings than the pols who appointed it wanted, will be told it is involving itself in business “outside it’s purview"

If so, that would be a good reason to have inquiries other than the one appointed…

Families of the lost men will currently have more immediate concerns than the law of privacy and, even with the passage of time, might not wish to bring an action. However, it is important to register that intrusive media conduct is not a necessary incidence of modern…

Is it not possible that methane could build up extremely rapidly if it is under pressure and a hole is opened to it? Could it widen a small leak, rather like a crack in a dyke, so that a drip rapidly becomes a torrent?

Trevor Watts seems to think the…

As the family members emerged from the meeting, just moments after receiving the news, their every expression and reaction was filmed and photographed by…

Donations can be made at any Kiwibank branch or direct to bank account: Kiwibank 38-9011-0165987-00.
Cheques made out to "EPMU Pike River Miners Family Support Trust" can also be sent by post, care of EPMU, PO Box 14-277, Kilbirnie, Wellington…

While it would be nice (? nice really isn't the right word, but you know what I mean, don't you...) to try to retrieve the bodies so that their friends and families can fully mourn and have some closure, I'm not so sure that it…

Anyway I've no desire to bore myself silly by responding to every nit-picker... Then in a year or so we'll see who was the conniving vote-grubber, or who was the paranoid 'conspiracist'

James, while I appreciate the sincerity of your feelings, your attempts at self-justification are venturing well into the…

A series of high-level inquiries will be held into the Pike River mine tragedy as the families of the miners demand answers…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6nS8aqA0Hc

From wiki

The disaster is also commemorated in the hymn tune "Gresford", which is also known as "The Miners' Hymn", written by Robert Saint of Hebburn, himself also a miner.

The flames on the surface were successfully extinguished, but unbeknownst to the fire fighters, the coal continued to burn underground. Over the following weeks it rapidly migrated into the surrounding coal mines and beneath the town, causing great…

After the blast at 3.50pm, the alarm was not raised for roughly two hours – the time it took for Daniel Rockhouse and Russell Smith to walk 2km out of the carbon monoxide-filled tunnel and alert emergency services.

That doesn't add up. The 3 News story I linked early has…

It’s entirely possible that human error on the part of the miners led to this tragedy. ... Maybe someone along the chain forgot to do some vital task, like close a door

The survivor's account quoted says that the door to the compressed air bay was open and the bay…

Insofar as 19th century Pakeha culture produced some of the earliest labour struggles and victories in the world, I think you may be reading what James said quite unfairly there.

It's still, at best, unnecessarily exclusionary of the non-Pakeha who were part of New Zealand then as much as now.…

Will you accept a response time by the emergency services of 16:53?

I'm happy to accept that – it's still over an hour though. I wonder exactly which timeline the British mining rescue experts who basically damned the operation today were given by the Herald.

I have no doubt whatsoever that some of the decision makers at the Pike River Mine did exactly that, but I am also certain that few if any will be prosecuted.

You may not have doubt, but you don't have knowledge, which also requires that what you believe also be…

So it is pretty clear that :
A) the shift controller knew about the explosion fairly soon after it happened;

Yesterday's Herald article, which I've now located, makes the following claim:

After the blast at 3.50pm, the alarm was not raised for roughly two hours – the time it took for…

The two hours was the time it took them to get from the mine to the phone.

From the herald story here :

"I got out of my machine and all of a sudden I heard what seemed to be a shotgun blast but much, much louder…

The impression I got from the interview with one of the survivors in the paper last Saturday (if my recollection is correct?) was that they got out of the shaft, and then had to walk down the track through bush to raise the alarm from a location somewhere fairly far…

didn’t one the two survivors raise the alarm from within the mine on a phone that worked and didn’t the above-ground staff know straight away that the monitoring links went down?

seems the 1 hr 60 min til they knew is a bit of a myth.

The impression I got…

I just heard Gary McCormick's poem for Joseph Dunbar. What a beautiful gift for a devastated family.

link.

I may be the only one that thinks your venting is a little closer to home than some here may realise.

It's mainly the timing and the tone I have a problem with. I accept there are questions to be answered about what happened. Just not here where most of…

There was no way the Government was going…

And... pretty ferocious this from the resident Herald cartoonist.

Ouch. The irony. It burns.

"The international mining community should band together to make sure…

Stuff has a timeline,…

another kiwi trick have 5 inquiries instead of one

Some of these various inquiries are required by law. OSH must investigate, by law, because people died. The Coroner must rule the men dead, and last I saw hadn't decided if there was going to be an inquest. These things cannot…

seems the 1 hr 60 min til they knew is a bit of a myth.

where does the “1 hour 50 minutes” come from?

Yesterday's article on the possibility of an early rescue had that timeline – I think it's linked to upthread.

I agree there seems much that needs asking. I understand your anger and frustration and I may be the only one that thinks your venting is a little closer to home than some here may realise.

I don't think you're alone in detecting the occasional suggestion of a valid point…

is there a fund we can donate to?

Also, text 306 for an automatic $3 donation.

That particular commission of inquiry is the only one in my lifetime (and I suspect I have been around a quite a bit longer than most posters here) which delivered a finding other than the finding the govt of the day wanted to sell the masses.

This is just silly.…

how were miners not required to touch base at regular intervals with those outside, and was there anybody outside, safety equipment at the ready?

Given that the electrician was sent in to deal with a reported fault, it's possible that the fault was with the telephone link into the mine.…

If you want to get all technocratic ask yourself how it can be that the alarm at the mine wasn't raised until 1 hour and 50 minutes after the explosion? Who was on duty above-ground?

I've been struggling with that from day two, layman knowledge and all. It still strikes…

There’s a difference between ‘too soon to lay blame’, and saying it’s unpatriotic to question the mine’s operation at all.

Well put. I expect that some fairly decent blame will be laid given enough time and evidence. But even now it's too soon, there's still work to be done.

I…

The only evidence enyone has that this mine was safe is the continual protestation by the company boss that it was safe.

Oh, and the inspection by the mine's insurers that was completed days before the event. And a Department of Labour inspection within the preceding weeks. Whittall's not just…

"I proactively incentivised the go forward with some fava beans and a nice chianti."

Sure I won’t be 100% correct on everything

No, no. I'm pretty sure you will be.

I am sick to my guts about this – nothing demonstrates exactly how far NZ has regressed from the ideals of the 19th century Pakeha settlers than this awful incident.

Wow, James, your racist, regressive jibes are so subtle.

The nats want the mine to start up again to generate money for the shareholders who back them ...

FFS, James, could you please slip into the same section of the multiverse as everyone else?

And perhaps you could wait until the terms of reference and makeup of the commission…

Yet the media has repeated that “this was a safe’mine’ over and over until it has become unpatriotic to question the mine’s protociols.

Not really. Many have suggested that it may be premature to assume the mine’s protocols are necessarily to blame, in the sense of being unreasonably lax in…

Society size perhaps?

I think most societies have the same phenomenon, it's human nature to care more about those closer to you. And stories with a strong metanarrative of blame are more powerful than "300 people died in a shocking accident that they mostly brought upon themselves by crowding too…

What I have been wondering during this tragic event, is weather mining is any more dangerous an occupation than deep sea fishing.

Whose allowed life insurance?

What I have been wondering during this tragic event, is weather mining is any more dangerous an occupation than deep sea fishing

Or quite a lot of professions where people die regularly from accidents. Truck driving, farming, roof painting, motorcycle couriers...

The thing about mining, though, is that when there's…

is there a fund we can donate to?

Yes – see here.

You do know that flooded mines, and mines where miners are stuck because of rock falls etc are very different to __bastard coal mines that can,…

Meanwhile, in that country that, apparently has no respect for human life or rights, they rescued their 29 miners within a day or so.

Umm, really, China is your example?

“Rescuers on Monday pulled to safety 29 people trapped in a flooded mine in southwestern China **in a rare bit…

if they had been allowed to, they would have been down there like a shot, without thinking of the risk to their own lives.

Well they would have been keen as hell but they wouldn’t be disregarding the risks. The difference being that they are trained to manage the risks…

Together alone
above and beneath
we were as close
as anyone can be
now you are gone
far away from me
as is once will always be
together alone

anei ra maua (here we are together)
e piri tahi nei…

Much more likely, surely, that they were crying – as we all were – because they knew that…

Original quote:

"If I could go back and re-think my opening address to them I would do it a thousand times (better).

“how long?” and “did they suffer?”

We don’t know, but it is likely that the initial compression wave was lethal, the survivors were halfway out and the compression wave nearly killed them. A compression wave would knock them unconscious and kill them pretty much instantly, such compression waves were often…

Not for certain, but they had a rough idea. And again, without putting too fine a point on it, felled on the spot – as both of the survivors initially were – as opposed to huddled in one or more groups near fresh air bases, would tell the story.

Mostly.…

Except that, as we've heard, they don't actually know for certain where any of them were working.

Not for certain, but they had a rough idea. And again, without putting too fine a point on it, felled on the spot – as both of the survivors initially were – as…

I was a bit disturbed to learn that they know so little about the movement of men

Newmont are developing a new underground mine at Waihi using latest technology which will include optic fibre lines providing proximity information on everyone in the mine – shutting down moving machinery if anyone…

Wellington – Railway Station along Willis St to Karo Drive.
Auckland – Queen Street from Newton Road to Customs St.

That's pleasant urban stroll in those cities, but imagine that underground, pitchblack, hot, and walking in a protective suit with breathing apparatus.

Regarding cause-of-death, *if* they died of asphyxiation and *if* the bodies weren't then damaged in the second explosion, it should be possible to tell

I was meaning something far simpler – if they died within minutes of the first explosion, you'd be able to tell simply by where they are…

Given that a person who's 2.5km away is effectively invisible to the naked eye, I think a better example might be needed

I remember a doco series starring Dr David Bellamy a few decades ago*. They used a rising helicopter shot of a line of bonfires on a Californian beach…

testing methane levels on a continual basis. How is it done? Can it even be done? Are there tricks or tools that can be used to detect it even with just a moderate level of certainty?

It can definitely be done, because there are portable hydrocarbon detectors. The Fire Service…

I can see U2 doing Red Hill Mining Town tomorrow night. That would be moving.

They do a cover of Peggy Seeger's Springhill Mining Disaster, but I am pretty sure they will have a little more sensitivity that that, and not sing that here, at this time.

The term Springhill…

Certainly the CSI guys make a big deal of working out the ambient environment when pontificating on time of death, even with Grissom's bugs

My thinking there too. Also a highly toxic environment might lack the usual decomposition factors – how many bugs can survive high concentrations of methane, or…

On the matter of the high tide wave circulating and wrapping around NZ
– this morning's wave from the West Coast has now passed all the way up the east and rounded Cape Reinga, it will pass Auckland at the…

If they died of asphyxiation after the first explosion, the story may be told by the position in which they are found

Depending upon the extent to which decomposition has set in, there may be some clues from tissue/blood analysis.

Lucy, you seem to be the resident test-tube baby -…

say putting someone in line of sight 2.5km from the camera

Given that a person who's 2.5km away is effectively invisible to the naked eye, I think a better example might be needed :)

2.5km is a long way

I deliberately avoided most of the coverage, but did anyone show the real length of tunnel – say putting someone in line of sight 2.5km from the camera, and then further to mark the far end of the mine workings? Or even a scale diagram…

Also, it seems likely that the real facts on the fate of the people down there might be scanty.

If they died of asphyxiation after the first explosion, the story may be told by the position in which they are found – and grim as it may sound, I imagine…

so could we just serve a round of fuckupachinos and be done with the point scoring?

Speaking of which, the American reality-based community has formed the Coffee Party movement in response to the Tea Party. Any ideas about forming a NZ branch?

Perhaps a hero dash could have saved lives

Perhaps. Had the explosion been dozens of metres into the mine (I'll ignore what might have happened at the tunnel mouth in that event), or even a few hundred, I suspect the response would've been different. But 2.5km is a long way…

(imported car without a band-expanded stereo. You know how it is)

I do know how it is, and that is why in my wife's car, I listen to National Radio on AM.
It may not sound as nice, but the content is worth making the effort to hear over the…

Also, it seems likely that the real facts on the fate of the people down there might…

I'm also disingenuous of those who take cheap shots about "green tape" to blame for the miners' deaths. Just as bad as the tabloid vultures on the scene.

As I've said, there's going to be a coronial inquiry, a Commission of Inquiry (terms of reference to be released on Monday,…

I’m also disingenuous of those who take cheap shots about “green tape” to blame for the miners’ deaths. Just as bad as the tabloid vultures on the scene.

Briefly tuned in to hear Laws doing a huuuuuge passive-aggressive number on that one: It's not him, you see: but lots of…

So I think the poor behaviour of the media in Greymouth is better sourced than mere rumour.

It does seem to have been mostly the foreign media — who had no bridges to burn. Denis Welch ventured on the Media7 we recorded tonight that he'd be interested to see how…

And Jacqui, that’s pretty much where I got to, and thought seriously about not posting the song…

Never quite got it until now.

Had the misfortune to hear Leighton on the radio in the car earlier (imported car without a band-expanded stereo. You know how it is)

Smith appears to have somewhat more circumspect than the loathsome Michael Laws, who has apparently been prattling on all week about how if he was in…

We are all connected.

[ETA: That's cheating!]

Woody Guthrie: The Dying Miner

It happened an hour ago,
Way down in this tunnel of coal,
Gas caught fire from somebody's lamp.
And the miners are choking in smoke.

Goodbye to Dickie and Honey,
Goodbye to the wife that I love.
Lot of these men not coming home,
Tonight…

I am just saying we need to be cautious about judgment on every participant – good or bad – until we understand what caused this disaster.

Tom: Personally I'm going with 'innocent until proved guilty'. Apart from anything else, for reasons of common decency.

Craig: Cheers and thanks for the…

Today is for the departed

I got up unusually early this morning. The moonlight shining off the strip of low-tide mud across the river under the still-leafing-up canopy of my 112-year-old walnut tree moved me to try for a photograph with my new-old camera, propped on a beanbag on the…

Almost literally raged at my screen before I realised that no human was likely involved.…

What I fear most is we are going to discover that once the decision was made to build the mine, this…

F you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

And if you look, you look through me
And if you talk it’s not…

Before we deify Mr. Whittle, we should consider the fact that as the CEO he has been in charge of an organisation now responsible for the worst industrial accident this country in almost a century

Crikey Tom, the poor guy's only been in the job a few weeks – I…

I'm not going to pass judgement on either the police or the CEO until we know more about what…